Marc Stein: Toronto has expressed interest in Ben Simmons

[Tha Cynic]

I would reluctantly do Fred + Boucher + Future 1st for Ben

It would feel wrong but you still have to do it. Still it would suck trading a raps legend

At least trading Dbo for Kawhi felt right

If the Raptors can pull that off, this is highway robbery. Simmons is a jumper away from being a top 5 player in the league.

[djsunyc]

I would reluctantly do Fred + Boucher + Future 1st for Ben

It would feel wrong but you still have to do it. Still it would suck trading a raps legend

At least trading Dbo for Kawhi felt right

If the Raptors can pull that off, this is highway robbery. Simmons is a jumper away from being a top 5 player in the league.

he will never be a top 5 player b/c he won't shoot.

[SaveTheHens]

I'm leaning towards Simmons now if we make a deal. His defensive prowess is incredible, he's better than PJ tucker out there. On offence he'll run the break, he can break people down, yes he needs a shot but literally if he develops that he's got the skillset of Lebron James in terms of his driving ability, with better defence. The shot thing is a huge if, but if he has that work ethic or the potential for it, roll the dice, what he gives you on defence is already elite. I personally wouldnt give up Boucher unless Morey actually valued Boucher, Boucher right now is an undervalued asset so I'd rather put in picks or any overvalued assets we have than someone who won't wow other teams but after next year will have that value

[Swag]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

Describe : SOON?

We might have different definitions of what “soon” means

Soon in the NBA is defined as "as soon as the player is eligible for an extension, his agent will want to capitalize on that".

Pascal Siakam might ball out this year and his agent might ask the Raps to max out his player.

[Swag]

Imagine being at the round table with Simmons and his team:

Our options are:

1. SacTown
2. Minny
3. Toronto

Which situation do you think he would prefer? Honest question.

This is why I think Masai and Rich are having conversations in the background.

[Kreamy]

Imagine being at the round table with Simmons and his team:

Our options are:

1. SacTown
2. Minny
3. Toronto

Which situation do you think he would prefer? Honest question.

This is why I think Masai and Rich are having conversations in the background.

Simmons is pretty close with KAT and Dlo so I can see Minny as one of his preferred destinations. I expect them to make a big jump this year with Ant and a full year under Finch.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Imagine being at the round table with Simmons and his team:

Our options are:

1. SacTown
2. Minny
3. Toronto

Which situation do you think he would prefer? Honest question.

This is why I think Masai and Rich are having conversations in the background.

There's also Golden State and Portland (Vegas favourite), so this is already a false premise.

Masai does his Raptor work and then heads off for his charity work. Pretty much every rumour is that the Raptors stopped talking to Philly prior to the draft and FA, and they've since built a team outlook where Simmons no longer makes even a lick of sense. You can't have Scottie Barnes and Ben Simmons in the same core.

[tecumseh18]

Another thing to consider about why they would want to include Pascal in a potential trade his because he's coming up on an extension soon and I don't think they want to pay him 35-45M per year (if he makes an all NBA team).

Describe : SOON?

We might have different definitions of what “soon” means

Soon in the NBA is defined as "as soon as the player is eligible for an extension, his agent will want to capitalize on that".

Pascal Siakam might ball out this year and his agent might ask the Raps to max out his player.

Pascal will be UFA in three years - the summer of 2024. When is he eligible to sign an extension? He doesn't have an ETO.

[djsunyc]

if a team trades for ben now and he still doesn't shoot, how far does his value drop then? you are only moving anything of note if you think he can get over his mental hurdle of shooting. if he can't? that's a huge deal.

[OakleyDokely]

if a team trades for ben now and he still doesn't shoot, how far does his value drop then? you are only moving anything of note if you think he can get over his mental hurdle of shooting. if he can't? that's a huge deal.

I don't think anyone trading for Simmons will be expecting him to shoot. He is what he is at this point. You're trading for the current Simmons. If he shows any improvement, great, but you can't count on it.

If teams thought he'd eventually become a shooter, the offers would be a lot stronger.

[Swag]

Imagine being at the round table with Simmons and his team:

Our options are:

1. SacTown
2. Minny
3. Toronto

Which situation do you think he would prefer? Honest question.

This is why I think Masai and Rich are having conversations in the background.

There's also Golden State and Portland (Vegas favourite), so this is already a false premise.

Masai does his Raptor work and then heads off for his charity work. Pretty much every rumour is that the Raptors stopped talking to Philly prior to the draft and FA, and they've since built a team outlook where Simmons no longer makes even a lick of sense. You can't have Scottie Barnes and Ben Simmons in the same core.

Its been reported Golden State has moved on from Ben - apparently the owner wants to keep his young assets as a foundation for longer term success window.

Portland? Its understood that at some point Dame will probably want to move on and if Portland flips a package of CJ for Ben and Dame eventually leaves - does Rich and Ben want to be there? Maybe. Maybe not.

Didn't the Kawhi trade happen while Masai was on his summer African tour and Bobby was the one working the phones? Its possible that Morey will realize the he has lost this game and needs to trade Ben - to Toronto or anywhere else. Maybe he picks up the phone and calls us and Bobby works the phones with Elton Brand. If not, we build around Scottie Barnes.

[Swag]

Describe : SOON?

We might have different definitions of what “soon” means

Soon in the NBA is defined as "as soon as the player is eligible for an extension, his agent will want to capitalize on that".

Pascal Siakam might ball out this year and his agent might ask the Raps to max out his player.

Pascal will be UFA in three years - the summer of 2024. When is he eligible to sign an extension? He doesn't have an ETO.

I believe he would be eligible to sign an extension the summer of 2022. I could be wrong.

[aligator]

I would reluctantly do Fred + Boucher + Future 1st for Ben

It would feel wrong but you still have to do it. Still it would suck trading a raps legend

At least trading Dbo for Kawhi felt right

It's not happening. This thread needs to die.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Its been reported Golden State has moved on from Ben - apparently the owner wants to keep his young assets as a foundation for longer term success window.

Portland? Its understood that at some point Dame will probably want to move on and if Portland flips a package of CJ for Ben and Dame eventually leaves - does Rich and Ben want to be there? Maybe. Maybe not.

Didn't the Kawhi trade happen while Masai was on his summer African tour and Bobby was the one working the phones? Its possible that Morey will realize the he has lost this game and needs to trade Ben - to Toronto or anywhere else. Maybe he picks up the phone and calls us and Bobby works the phones with Elton Brand. If not, we build around Scottie Barnes.

The Raptors are building with Scottie Barnes. It doesn't make any sense to build around Scottie Barnes AND Ben Simmons. They are incompatible and redundant. It's a fair point that Masai kept the conversation going from overseas, but that was for Kawhi Leonard and with a team that they had close personal connections.

There's no way Masai is risking screwing up this current season by allowing Morey to drag Raptors names through the media. No way. He did his job. He vouched for Siakam. It's over. If you've paid attention, Webster had a long response to why they don't leak and that's out of respect for their players. The closest rumour we had was Shams saying they spoke in July, it's September. Fischer says it was over the second they drafted Barnes. Vegas is sliding us down closer to the Shanghai Sharks.

EDIT: It's also been rumoured that Toronto has moved on, so again, your question is based on a false premise.

[Swag]

Its been reported Golden State has moved on from Ben - apparently the owner wants to keep his young assets as a foundation for longer term success window.

Portland? Its understood that at some point Dame will probably want to move on and if Portland flips a package of CJ for Ben and Dame eventually leaves - does Rich and Ben want to be there? Maybe. Maybe not.

Didn't the Kawhi trade happen while Masai was on his summer African tour and Bobby was the one working the phones? Its possible that Morey will realize the he has lost this game and needs to trade Ben - to Toronto or anywhere else. Maybe he picks up the phone and calls us and Bobby works the phones with Elton Brand. If not, we build around Scottie Barnes.

The Raptors are building with Scottie Barnes. It doesn't make any sense to build around Scottie Barnes AND Ben Simmons. They are incompatible and redundant. It's a fair point that Masai kept the conversation going from overseas, but that was for Kawhi Leonard and with a team that they had close personal connections.

There's no way Masai is risking screwing up this current season by allowing Morey to drag Raptors names through the media. No way. He did his job. He vouched for Siakam. It's over. If you've paid attention, Webster had a long response to why they don't leak and that's out of respect for their players. The closest rumour we had was Shams saying they spoke in July, it's September. Fischer says it was over the second they drafted Barnes. Vegas is sliding us down closer to the Shanghai Sharks.

EDIT: It's also been rumoured that Toronto has moved on, so again, your question is based on a false premise.

Situations change. Just because we moved on from conversation yesterday, it doesn't necessarily mean that a future conversation can not be held. The Raptors brass are in good standing with Kutch and Rich Paul - we've resigned couple of their clients recently to fair contracts - so that relationship leaves many possibilities open.

Let's not assume just because Masai "vouched" for Pascal that he wouldn't trade him. If the right package came along, I'm sure he would. I don't want the Raptors to overpay for Ben but I also trust Masai to build around Scottie and Ben. Scottie has shown a willingness to shoot the ball and I'm optimistic he will improve his range and shooting - look at the progress of OG (now a 40% 3 point shooter).

So I disagree, I do think its possible to build around Scottie, Ben and OG.

[kj_]

I think it does matter if OG is guarding Durant instead of FVV, and Durant would agree with me, along with every coach in the league. And if it didn't matter, you could put 5 FVVs on the floor - I mean, there's no difference defensively and everyone is unstoppable and there are no downsides at all to doing that - and start winning some 'chips.

No, that's not what I mean. You've reduced defense to individual match-ups, when we both know that Kevin Durant can't get the FVV match-up every time he wants. If it's individualized, still Durant is scoring on Simmons, prime Rodman, Pippen, you name it. It's not, though, and that's why FVV is still really valuable defensively. That's what those stats are useful for, and why you have no examples of FVV getting picked on defensively in the playoffs. They put him on Curry in the Finals. They tried Kawhi and he got destroyed in under a quarter and had to be moved off.

I

t's true that not every playoff team can exploit your liabilities, but most can, and that's why these types of players are vulnerable to matchups. It explains Fred's futility against big playoff defenses, for example (even if our 'chip run didn't include a Superstar shooting wing targetting Fred on the offensive end).

Klay wasn't a superstar shooting wing. Middleton not enough of a shooting wing? Was Jimmy Butler hunting down Fred?

If you want to make an argument against trading Ben for Fred, it's banking on Ben not improving offensively at all for the rest of his career (a very real possibility imo), and tanking his trade value in other ways. Not by pretending that being talented, tall and athletic doesn't matter in the NBA.

The argument is that Fred has more utility than Ben on any team, including a champ. You have to have wiped your memory clear of certain events to deny this. The primary case is that the Raptors couldn't afford to trade 9 3PAs for 0. The secondary case has been proven that Fred's defensive aptitude is highly underrated. Ben is a great defender, but being a great big defender on a team full of great big defenders... well, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson comes cheap.

It’s not just about getting isolated on and beat. Teams can cover for that even if it’s not ideal. Send the double to help when Fred is backed down by a bigger player. Or send the double when the Durant type wing puts the ball on the floor.

The real issue is perimeter close outs. When the scrambles and rotations occur it all to often ends with Fred running out (or Kyle in the past too) and a wing 6’6” or taller shooting like it’s an open shot even when the six footer is “close”.

Swap that close out from 6’ to 6’10” and that shot doesn’t even get attempted and more likely than not turns into a much worse late clock shot with a considerably worse percentage and PPP outcome.

Athletic, switchable length has tremendous value to team defence.

I make the Fred and parts for Simmons trade without a second thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ATLTimekeeper]

It’s not just about getting isolated on and beat. Teams can cover for that even if it’s not ideal. Send the double to help when Fred is backed down by a bigger player. Or send the double when the Durant type wing puts the ball on the floor.

The real issue is perimeter close outs. When the scrambles and rotations occur it all to often ends with Fred running out (or Kyle in the past too) and a wing 6’6” or taller shooting like it’s an open shot even when the six footer is “close”.

Swap that close out from 6’ to 6’10” and that shot doesn’t even get attempted and more likely than not turns into a much worse late clock shot with a considerably worse percentage and PPP outcome.

Athletic, switchable length has tremendous value to team defence.

I make the Fred and parts for Simmons trade without a second thought.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know, 2 of the last 3 years opponent 3PA tends to be lower with Fred on the court relative to the rest of the team. fwiw, last year the team had the highest frequency of late shot clock possessions and 4th highest frequency of opponent very late shot possessions. That's with both Fred and Kyle. Sure, theoretically Simmons physical abilities could improve that, but it wouldn't be significant or lead to much impact difference.

You're not wrong in theory, but you're the results speak for themselves.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Situations change. Just because we moved on from conversation yesterday, it doesn't necessarily mean that a future conversation can not be held. The Raptors brass are in good standing with Kutch and Rich Paul - we've resigned couple of their clients recently to fair contracts - so that relationship leaves many possibilities open.

Okay, situations change. Then let's drop the premise that only three teams are involved and that means Rich Paul would steer Simmons to Toronto.

What possibilities? Philadelphia has to agree to a price and it doesn't matter how close Rich Paul and Masai are. Personally I think it would be stupid for Masai to add another Klutch client on a long-term deal. Maybe he realized that, too.

Let's not assume just because Masai "vouched" for Pascal that he wouldn't trade him. If the right package came along, I'm sure he would. I don't want the Raptors to overpay for Ben but I also trust Masai to build around Scottie and Ben. Scottie has shown a willingness to shoot the ball and I'm optimistic he will improve his range and shooting - look at the progress of OG (now a 40% 3 point shooter).

So I disagree, I do think its possible to build around Scottie, Ben and OG.

He would trade him, he just wouldn't trade him for Ben Simmons.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

If the GS rumor has any legs, that might be interesting too. We could probably snatch Draymond Green at a decent price, assuming the Sixers don't want him...third team.

[RoyceDa59]

G Trent Jr
G Anunoby
F Siakam
F Barnes
C Simmons