Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 3 (Omicron & Delta Variants)

[exculpatory]

That's like asking why a basketball team should ever play defense if opponents are going to score sometimes anyway.

In fairness, for many diseases it is OK to believe in an oversimplified dichotomy -- they either prevent the disease or they didn't work, period.

But for COVID, the middle case -- not entirely preventing it but greatly/HUGELY reducing its severity -- is particularly important.

Fencer - excellent post.

I just highlighted your most important & cogent comment.

That is precisely one of the most important points the uninformed do not understand.

Thousands upon thousands more than the 1500 people currently dying every single day would be dying as well - if not for the vaccines.

The only excuse for the anti-vax ignorance is not understanding that highlighted point. But come on; the disease has been around for much more than a year, and the vaccines have been out for many months. People should take the trouble to educate themselves before committing to being stridently anti-vax.

Similarly, the only excuse for being anti-mask is not understanding a major corollary of the highlighted point -- one can be successfully protected from severe Delta disease by a COVID vaccine and still transmit Covid if you are harboring an asymptomatic Delta infection.

Precisely.

I rewrote your second paragraph to make it pristinely clear & accurate.

And there is no **** excuse for not understanding this - willful ignorance.

[cl2117]

The stupidity of the anti-vax is staggering. How can none of you get through your head that your unvaccinated status affects even the vaccinated?

It's so simple. It's so basic. Yet you just can't get it through your head. It's hard to not read these posts and not get frustrated:

On the other hand the pro vax crowd is quite illogical. You have the vaccine, you're protected, what are you worried about? Simultaneously praising the vaccine for it's effectiveness while being afraid of the unvaxxed is illogical.

How do you read this and not say it's stupid? That's not name calling. It's just the truth.

And when that stupidity is actively leading to people dying, how can you possibly stay civil?

You go to lengths to try to explain common misconceptions about the above in very simple and clear terms and using indisputable scientific evidence and people just let it completely wash over them as they continue to contribute to what is effectively a global holocaust. And no, I do not use that word lightly.

I'll try one last time.

The vaccine protects you, but is not 100% coverage. You are still at risk of getting it, although your symptoms should be milder. That being said if you've got co morbidities, you could still be very much at risk of serious effects.

Furthermore, the more the virus spreads, the more likely it is to mutate (see: Delta variant). These mutations can be stronger/more transmissible and the vaccines we have developed might be less effective against the variants. That last part means that allowing the virus to continue to mutate might mean that the vaccine isn't nearly as protective as it was against a previous variant.

All of the above is why it's very important that everyone gets vaccinated. It is safe and effective. It works better with larger percentages of the population taking it up. Every leader of the free world has been vaccinated, this should speak to it's safety.

Please people educate yourselves before you contribute to the deaths of those around you. It is your moral obligation to educate yourselves and to get vaccinated. To not do so is abhorrent.

[Bad-Thoma]

make it make sense

Read on Twitter

?s=20

That's just silly. I mean forget correlation/causation, that's too loose to even be considered. On top of that the reported cases on the second date wasn't 300k, it was 116k. That's not an error, that's disingenuous.

A really short list of some reasons-

The virus, as they are prone to do, evolved into a more transmissible state. Also, historically viruses come in waves and the first date just happened to be in a trough while the second is higher on the crest. For instance, during the highest crest in December and January '20-'21 the peak was hitting between 250k and 300k in the U.S. and barely anyone was vaccinated, and this was pre-Delta(!). I'm not going to bother with explaining where on the timeline of peak masking, closings, and social distancing those 2 dates fell either.

But the most important reason that tweet is silly is an estimated 85 to 95% of new reported cases in the U.S are among the unvaccinated. The 3rd wave would have crested way higher without the vaccine, it's really too obvious to bother going into it. The CDC data is readily available and here is, for a small reinforcement, a recent statistical report from Pennsylvania.

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

I'm just going to go ahead and block you as I'm (obviously) out of patience with things this willfully obtuse and I'll just end up being a dick about it anyways. I'm not ex when it comes to medical knowledge, I don't even play a doctor on TV, but you don't need a degree to see through a tweet this weak and that you read it, thought to yourself, "wow, this is something", and posted it here means our future interactions about covid probably wouldn't benefit either of us.

When covid is finally "over" I'm going to clear out my block list and we can all go back happily being dicks about basketball rather than something that actually means anything.

[cl2117]

When covid is finally "over" I'm going to clear out my block list and we can all go back happily being dicks about basketball rather than something that actually means anything.

You are a better man than me. I can neither forgive nor forget at this stage those that have contributed to the deaths of so many.

And for reasons that are beyond me. Either willfull ignorance, politics or something else. There is no excuse for this behaviour.

I hope they all eventually experience the suffering that they are inflicting on others by perpetuating this living global nightmare.

[Curmudgeon]

Yesterday, covid killed 1,800 Americans. That's just 1,000 less than the deaths on 9/11. In one day. There were over 300,000 new cases.

[SuperDeluxe]

Yesterday, covid killed 1,800 Americans. That's just 1,000 less than the deaths on 9/11. In one day. There were over 300,000 new cases.

I wonder how many of those 1800 people got the virus from a "patriot" who chose not to wear a mask. (Just a meaningless question though, so don't mind me. The most important thing is to protect people's freedom to do as they please.)

[canman1971]

Yesterday, covid killed 1,800 Americans. That's just 1,000 less than the deaths on 9/11. In one day. There were over 300,000 new cases.

I wonder how many of those 1800 people got the virus from a "patriot" who chose not to wear a mask. (Just a meaningful question though, so don't mind me. The most important thing is to protect people's freedom to do as they please.)

It really is mind-blowing.

[Half-Full]

When covid is finally "over" I'm going to clear out my block list and we can all go back happily being dicks about basketball rather than something that actually means anything.

You are a better man than me. I can neither forgive nor forget at this stage those that have contributed to the deaths of so many.

And for reasons that are beyond me. Either willfull ignorance, politics or something else. There is no excuse for this behaviour.

I hope they all eventually experience the suffering that they are inflicting on others by perpetuating this living global nightmare.

Opposition to masks/vaccinations all can be attributed to a single trait that is the hallmark of those who are conservatives: selfishness.

[Green89]

It's very hard to find data in the media about breakthrough cases. I believe it is NBC Boston that continuously provides updates. A few days ago, they reported 1/3 of all state covid cases were among the vaccinated, and 29% of covid hospitalizations were vaccinated people. This is why I don't think it's wise that airlines and trains are only going to want negative tests from the unvaccinated. The vaccinated have it and spread it, too. It's not easy to find this data in other states.

There's no Proof here. Present some type of Link, or something.
Or just say that, this is your opinion. Don't present this as Factual.

Sorry, I read a lot of articles and too lazy to remember which one is which for a link to post. Here is one I found from the 10th, talking about the percentages. I'll look for the one remarking about 1/3 of current cases. If I post numbers, I saw it somewhere, not just an opinion.

https://www.masslive.com/coronavirus/2021/09/breakthrough-covid-hospitalizations-in-massachusetts-remain-below-30-of-total-as-state-reports-1726-new-infections.html

Breakthrough cases accounted for 181 of those hospitalizations — or 29% of total COVID cases in hospitals. The remaining 71% are among unvaccinated individuals, including those who may not have received a second dose of the vaccine. The percentage of breakthrough cases in the hospitals was at 30% last week, then dipped to 25% before rising again.

[Green89]

make it make sense

Read on Twitter

?s=20

The Delta variant is dramatically more transmissible.
Vastly more people (especially the unvaccinated) are masking & social distancing much less.

The vaccinated are also under the impression they are fully protected and are doing everything less than when protocols were in place last summer. The CdC's premature announcement that vaccinated people could go maskless didn't help, before reversing course when they realized how the vaccinated could in fact still spread it. I think that was the one biggest element in all this: the CDC not taking the spread from vaccinated individuals seriously enough. I saw a bus full of a college sports team on the highway a few nights ago, and not one player had a mask on. Bus full of people with the windows all up, vaccinated or not, is not following any current advisements.

Even since the CDC reversed course, very few are listening. Everyone threw off the masks in May at their announcement, and only a small percentage threw them back on when they took it back. Everyone just wanted to hear it was over and they could go back to doing everything, including not wearing masks. Nobody wants to hear otherwise.

[Curmudgeon]

We vaccinated people are not fully protected against covid but we are almost fully protected against death from covid. We can get it and transmit it, but the number of reported deaths of fully vaccinated people is very small. In England, fully vaccinated people accounted for 1.2% of all covid related deaths in the first 7 months of this year. It's unclear in the study whether "covid-related" also includes people with other co-morbidities, or which vaccines were involved. The efficacy of the single-shot Johnson& Johnson vaccine is about 20% lower than the other two.

[exculpatory]

The stupidity of the anti-vax is staggering. How can none of you get through your head that your unvaccinated status affects even the vaccinated?

It's so simple. It's so basic. Yet you just can't get it through your head. It's hard to not read these posts and not get frustrated:

On the other hand the pro vax crowd is quite illogical. You have the vaccine, you're protected, what are you worried about? Simultaneously praising the vaccine for it's effectiveness while being afraid of the unvaxxed is illogical.

How do you read this and not say it's stupid? That's not name calling. It's just the truth.

And when that stupidity is actively leading to people dying, how can you possibly stay civil?

You go to lengths to try to explain common misconceptions about the above in very simple and clear terms and using indisputable scientific evidence and people just let it completely wash over them as they continue to contribute to what is effectively a global holocaust. And no, I do not use that word lightly.

I'll try one last time.

The vaccine protects you, but is not 100% coverage. You are still at risk of getting it, although your symptoms should be milder. That being said if you've got co morbidities, you could still be very much at risk of serious effects.

Furthermore, the more the virus spreads, the more likely it is to mutate (see: Delta variant). These mutations can be stronger/more transmissible and the vaccines we have developed might be less effective against the variants. That last part means that allowing the virus to continue to mutate might mean that the vaccine isn't nearly as protective as it was against a previous variant.

All of the above is why it's very important that everyone gets vaccinated. It is safe and effective. It works better with larger percentages of the population taking it up. Every leader of the free world has been vaccinated, this should speak to it's safety.

Please people educate yourselves before you contribute to the deaths of those around you. It is your moral obligation to educate yourselves and to get vaccinated. To not do so is abhorrent.

Phenomenal post!

As you have read, I have posted the same stuff innumerable times (supported by links to the best peer reviewed publications on the planet).

And I got nowhere fast with our recalcitrant, uninformed, willfully ignorant subgroup.

And then yesterday I literally **** exploded with frustration & went into attack mode - and, in response, was called a wannabe Nazi & a slaveholder. SMMFH.

I plan to tone it down & revert to science only posts - directed at the smart, thoughtful & responsible members of our board.

Did you see Fencer’s truly beautiful & incredibly astute posts above?
As an extremely insightful (albeit non-medical) individual, he hit the nail on the **** head regarding 2 of the most common misconceptions amongst the ‘willfully ignorant and/or dumb as rocks” uninformed. He expressed himself in a way that maybe just maybe will influence just 1 or 2 of the “deluded horde”.
I vote his 2 posts last night (edited a little bit by me) as the best posts in this thread.
(You are my hero, Fencer [at least for today - LOL]).

BTW, folks, cl is a critical care doc who has had many Covid patients die right in front of him.
This Board is very fortunate to have him take time out of his insanely busy days providing those interested with the truth about Covid medicine. Thank you, cl.
(And of course, you are very lucky to have me as well. LOL. I have more time on my hands these days than cl, & I have been reading more original Covid publications recently than my Endocrinology journals.)

[exculpatory]

make it make sense

Read on Twitter

?s=20

That's just silly. I mean forget correlation/causation, that's too loose to even be considered. On top of that the reported cases on the second date wasn't 300k, it was 116k. That's not an error, that's disingenuous.

A really short list of some reasons-

The virus, as they are prone to do, evolved into a more transmissible state. Also, historically viruses come in waves and the first date just happened to be in a trough while the second is higher on the crest. For instance, during the highest crest in December and January '20-'21 the peak was hitting between 250k and 300k in the U.S. and barely anyone was vaccinated, and this was pre-Delta(!). I'm not going to bother with explaining where on the timeline of peak masking, closings, and social distancing those 2 dates fell either.

But the most important reason that tweet is silly is an estimated 85 to 95% of new reported cases in the U.S are among the unvaccinated. The 3rd wave would have crested way higher without the vaccine, it's really too obvious to bother going into it. The CDC data is readily available and here is, for a small reinforcement, a recent statistical report from Pennsylvania.

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

I'm just going to go ahead and block you as I'm (obviously) out of patience with things this willfully obtuse and I'll just end up being a dick about it anyways. I'm not ex when it comes to medical knowledge, I don't even play a doctor on TV, but you don't need a degree to see through a tweet this weak and that you read it, thought to yourself, "wow, this is something", and posted it here means our future interactions about covid probably wouldn't benefit either of us.

When covid is finally "over" I'm going to clear out my block list and we can all go back happily being dicks about basketball rather than something that actually means anything.

Excellent work, BT.

I am not unblocking these people ever.
Unforgivable behavior.

[cl2117]

BTW, folks, cl is a critical care doc who has had many Covid patients die right in front of him.
This Board is very fortunate to have him take time out of his insanely busy days providing those interested with the truth about Covid medicine. Thank you, cl.
(And of course, you are very lucky to have me as well. LOL. I have more time on my hands these days than cl, & I have been reading more original Covid publications recently than my Endocrinology journals.)

Sorry I think you have me confused with one of the other guys. Not a critical care doc, just someone fed up. But agreed on all the rest. My heart goes out to those on the frontlines, I don't think I could cope. They deserve better.

[exculpatory]

make it make sense

Read on Twitter

?s=20

The Delta variant is dramatically more transmissible.
Vastly more people (especially the unvaccinated) are masking & social distancing much less.

The vaccinated are also under the impression they are fully protected and are doing everything less than when protocols were in place last summer. The CdC's premature announcement that vaccinated people could go maskless didn't help, before reversing course when they realized how the vaccinated could in fact still spread it. I think that was the one biggest element in all this: the CDC not taking the spread from vaccinated individuals seriously enough. I saw a bus full of a college sports team on the highway a few nights ago, and not one player had a mask on. Bus full of people with the windows all up, vaccinated or not, is not following any current advisements.

Even since the CDC reversed course, very few are listening. Everyone threw off the masks in May at their announcement, and only a small percentage threw them back on when they took it back. Everyone just wanted to hear it was over and they could go back to doing everything, including not wearing masks. Nobody wants to hear otherwise.

Outstanding, Green89.
The CDC did **** up royally in 5/2021 prematurely removing masking & social distancing recommendations for the vaccinated.
They should have seen Delta coming.
It was exploding in the UK at that time & the USA surges have generally mimicked the preceding UK surges.
As soon as Rochelle Walinsky announced the relaxation of masking & social distancing in 5/2021, I told my GF “this is going to be a cluster **** - it is premature.”
It is very hard to put toothpaste back in the tube.

[exculpatory]

BTW, folks, cl is a critical care doc who has had many Covid patients die right in front of him.
This Board is very fortunate to have him take time out of his insanely busy days providing those interested with the truth about Covid medicine. Thank you, cl.
(And of course, you are very lucky to have me as well. LOL. I have more time on my hands these days than cl, & I have been reading more original Covid publications recently than my Endocrinology journals.)

Sorry I think you have me confused with one of the other guys. Not a critical care doc, just someone fed up. But agreed on all the rest. My heart goes out to those on the frontlines, I don't think I could cope. They deserve better.

Damn. That is embarrassing.
His name is close to yours.
I cannot remember it at the moment.
He posted a bunch in the previous Covid thread.
Does anyone remember his screen name? Mods?

Regardless, your post was awesome!
But you are a doc, right?
Pulmonologist?
I think I once asked you about the difference between typical ARDS due to sepsis etc VS ARDS/cytokine storm due to Covid?

[djFan71]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRxjmnBp/


Video of federal government telling us how mandating mask and vaccines are not legal and how it’s unconstitutional to ask if someone is vaccinated or not, but then again Trump was President so go figure

Everyone's a hypocrite. Not super-hard to find examples:

Fox News Adopts Vaccine Protocol That’s More Stringent Than Biden Policy its Personalities Rage Against

[SuperDeluxe]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRxjmnBp/


Video of federal government telling us how mandating mask and vaccines are not legal and how it’s unconstitutional to ask if someone is vaccinated or not, but then again Trump was President so go figure

Everyone's a hypocrite. Not super-hard to find examples:

Fox News Adopts Vaccine Protocol That’s More Stringent Than Biden Policy its Personalities Rage Against

Un-frigging-believable.

[ddb]

make it make sense

Read on Twitter

?s=20

The Delta variant is dramatically more transmissible.
Vastly more people (especially the unvaccinated) are masking & social distancing much less.

I guess there's a whole lot of genomic sequencing going on behind the scenes because that's the only way to determine if it's "delta variant".

[djFan71]

Idaho is only 40% vaccinated and opposed mask mandates. Now they're over-running WA state hospitals and causing care rationing there.

https://www.newsandguts.com/undervaccinated-idaho-doesnt-have-enough-hospital-beds-for-covid-19-surge-is-that-the-neighboring-states-problem/?fbclid=IwAR3tYphCHkotSwRs3tUP16uaAVy-XlIg5elaK5X4-iexnKiWqsAxoCMavDk

This is one obvious way that one person's "freedom" to not wear masks or get vaccinated hurts everyone - not just them.