Where does Curry rank on offense since 1980?

[falcolombardi]

Is Curry's gravity outlier enough to catapult him higher than what we are giving him credit for?

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i kind of have the opposite concern, that the rareness of his approach and the fact is hard to quantify makes us overcoreect and overcredit his gravity

i feel like we may be double counting a bit when we already have all the impact métrics already that should capture the value of his gravity

just like i think his portability is a bit overstated since people dont account for how many good passers you need to play kerrball effectively, not that different that slasher types supposed dependence on floor spacing to be the most effective

[Doctor MJ]

sometimes i honestly feel like chris Paul is underated because he doesnt have enough turnovers

people seem to hold his methodical game and low tov% against him since is the opposite of nash and magic (running a lot, agressive/improvisational with high turnovers)

I think the idea is that because CP3 is more conservative, he misses opportunities for high-value passes that can lead to all-time offense.

He is still an all-time offensive player, whose box-score suggests he might be better than a Nash or Magic offensively; however that snail pace he plays at holds him from being the highest echelon there is seems to be the common sentiment.

At the same time, Paul not committing many turnovers possibly helps his team's defense and should be accounted for in his defensive impact.

Final thing is. If you look at his multi-year PS playoff offenses, he arguably has been better at leading offenses in the PS than say a Steph, so how is he really holding back his team offenses from their full ceiling is a relevant point.

Chris Paul is playing fast right now and it’s indistinguishable from his previous years. He missed out on nothing being selective in running the break.

He was relatively conservative compared to gunners like Nash and Magic, he wasn’t actually conservative in a vacuum at all. He had an era defined by throwing lob passes.

What he wasn’t conservative in was shot selection. Chris Paul took as hard and as high value of shots as almost anyone, and cashed in really well.

The Chris Paul impact breakdown is: Take all the hard shots and make them, and create all the easy shots for teammates.

Can you show some data on this?

My first glance is telling me that the Suns are still playing faster when Paul is on the bench.

I understand everything is fast nowadays so that can be argued to be a proof of concept, but in general the ability to attack effectively in transition is based on in part on rapid decision making, and so if the Suns are doing it effectively playing at a faster pace when Paul is on the bench, this really isn’t what we’re talking about when we’re talking about the Magics and the Nashes.


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[Doctor MJ]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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[LukaTheGOAT]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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If you have the opportunity, could you point me in the direction of some of the regression modes of eFG you are referring to?

[Doctor MJ]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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If you have the opportunity, could you point me in the direction of some of the regression modes of eFG you are referring to?

Gosh, it was years ago that I first saw it, and even if I could remember where, site's probably gone.

What you're looking for is someone doing regression models (akin to RAPM with +/-) on Dean Oliver's 4 Factors on a player-level.

[DCasey91]

Paul/Nash produce very very highly team offense outcomes because they are ATG game managers and playmakers for their size. Both are better on holistic offense than Harden.

LBJ gets the best of both worlds though with more variance (lowlights and the highest and everything in between). Hot jumper he’s the best I’ve seen including Jordan. But his jumper is streaky at best.

Curry while not as good as CP3/Nash/Magic in game management down to passing execution subverts it with goat shooting and pound for pound one of the best scorers ever (most underrated trait).

MJ best perimeter scorer ever coupled with low T/O. But it’s interesting later on in his career it was tracking towards more defense to a team’s perspective with 4 ++ defenders (Pippen, Rodman, Harper being the other three) including himself. Efficiency dropped relative to age. Whereas older LBJ went the other way. From looking like DPOY, machine level offense at the Heat, to overproducing on offense and dipping on defense at the second stint, back towards Magic type playmaking and Malone scoring numbers at the Lakers with ++ defense (All NBA level). Truly incredible the transition at 3 very distinct periods of time.

87 onwards Magic took up more of the brunt on offense with Kareem finally declining (GOAT level big man on offense) with about as best results as you can ask for. OWS upped by a fair margin

MJ/LBJ/Magic

After that you can make a case for Curry imo.

Have to take into consideration usage, and over usage, heliocentric schemes, different rules, better skilled offensive components/pieces on a team to play with. SRS is bunk in the 90’s I don’t use it why would anyone use it is beyond me. Cupcake teams around.

I mean players play 32 mins and get 32++% usage. If you gave Nash that for example it would be godly.

Nash would be absurd as he was and just as bad on defense (not talking about defense).

Dirk would be KD in a different fashion

Magic would def be LBJ in his own special way on offense 23/11 guy more efficient slightly lower volume? Probably. His FT 1500+ makes at 88+% and 3 ball 700+ attempts last 4 years at 34.5% suggests that is the case. They are superior numbers than any 4 year stretch of shooting on the whole for Lebron. His box score creation for a team stands up decades later and is pretty at the top at extreme volume (duh it’s Magic) even with lower scoring volume numbers compared to scoring orientated players. Quite simply he’s the best playmaking guard ever. Best onball and live dribble passer and it’s not close at all. Pace was below average from 87-91 so two noticeable changes in his game. Shot more, more halfcourt orientated with better individual impact on a game. Dude was a 6”9 highly athletic Jokic walking mismatch with more passing and using hooks in the paint. Championship level offense while averaging 20-23 ppg in a playoff scenario is kind of backbreaking.

Those first three can raffle it. Can’t put Curry ahead because his game hasn’t revolutionized fully yet (rebounding though is looking great). Even KD has brought more naunce as years when on. All I’m saying yes he’s the GOAT shooter and one of the most efficienct scorers ever but he isn’t as portable as might you think he is. There is a particular system to max out his results. For the other three it’s simple put ball in hand. When Curry shothunts (and he does) TO’s go up, efficiency goes down, defense goes down basically it’s over sniping there’s less reverting in his game.

After that it’s an open discussion.

[therealbig3]

I think LeBron, Magic, Jordan, Nash, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Dirk all have really strong cases over Curry, especially the first 4.

I personally can’t entertain him higher than 5th.

[falcolombardi]

I think LeBron, Magic, Jordan, Nash, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Dirk all have really strong cases over Curry, especially the first 4.

I personally can’t entertain him higher than 5th.

that is similar to mine although i may include current jokic in curry level

i also agree that nash doesnt get enough love, his regular and playoffs offense results are fairly comparable/better than even the curry/durant warriors

[feyki]

Why Jordan and Shaq rank so high, offensively? Lebron also, but at least his offence was better than them.

[falcolombardi]

Why Jordan and Shaq rank so high, offensively? Lebron also, but at least his offence was better than them.

why not? all of these guys led great offenses that were resilient in the playoffs

[s0ciety]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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If you have the opportunity, could you point me in the direction of some of the regression modes of eFG you are referring to?

I believe this is what you're looking for: https://thecity2.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/new-player-metric-2-5-year-adjusted-four-factor-a4pm/

[feyki]

Why Jordan and Shaq rank so high, offensively? Lebron also, but at least his offence was better than them.

why not? all of these guys led great offenses that were resilient in the playoffs

2007 Nash - 26,5 PP100, 16,5 AP100, +17,5 rOrtg

2009 Lebron - 40,5 PP100, 10,5 AP100, +12,5 rOrtg

. This is the best of that trio and not in the same tier with Nash.

[falcolombardi]

Why Jordan and Shaq rank so high, offensively? Lebron also, but at least his offence was better than them.

why not? all of these guys led great offenses that were resilient in the playoffs

2007 Nash - 26,5 PP100, 16,5 AP100, +17,5 rOrtg

2009 Lebron - 40,5 PP100, 10,5 AP100, +12,5 rOrtg

. This is the best of that trio and not in the same tier with Nash.

indomt like using boxscore totals (points + assists mostly at that) to define offensive value

if i did magic would be less valuable offensive player than peak westbrook (who i love but not that much)

[feyki]

why not? all of these guys led great offenses that were resilient in the playoffs

2007 Nash - 26,5 PP100, 16,5 AP100, +17,5 rOrtg

2009 Lebron - 40,5 PP100, 10,5 AP100, +12,5 rOrtg

. This is the best of that trio and not in the same tier with Nash.

indomt like using boxscore totals (points + assists mostly at that) to define offensive value

if i did magic would be less valuable offensive player than peak westbrook (who i love but not that much)

How ? Try it .

[falcolombardi]

westbrook peak is 30/10, magic peak is 24/12

most people not knowing the names would be more impressed by the first slashline

[feyki]

westbrook peak is 30/10, magic peak is 24/12

most people not knowing the names would be more impressed by the first slashline

Efficiency? Magic had +16 rOrtg while West had +3.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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If you have the opportunity, could you point me in the direction of some of the regression modes of eFG you are referring to?

I believe this is what you're looking for: https://thecity2.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/new-player-metric-2-5-year-adjusted-four-factor-a4pm/

Thanks a ton!

[ShotCreator]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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Where do you suppose Chris Paul’s impact comes from? Assuming it’s even possible to think it exists saying stuff like this.

[ShotCreator]

And Chris Paul is flat out not as skilled as Nash or Magic which is why none of my posts involve that line of thinking he’s on that level but certain stuff about conservative play, and pace, and ball pounding just don’t mesh with reality and it really feeds into other narratives trying to explain away why he could beat multiple 8+ SRS teams in a row just to reach the conference finals in his career.


Jokic and the Nuggets have been at a snails pace the past two years and there’s nothing conservative about his style of play at all.

[Doctor MJ]

Also, Paul’s MO has never been that he gives his teammates much easier shots. If that were the case, we’d have seen it in various stats (regression modes of eFG, massive boosts in TS Add, etc).

When we speak of Paul playing more conservatively, we aren’t just talking about eyeball stuff.

Of course it’s possible Paul now does this, but it would involve a significant shift.


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Where do you suppose Chris Paul’s impact comes from? Assuming it’s even possible to think it exists saying stuff like this.

Turnover prevention is his signature.

That's not to say he's not an excellent passer and a very good scorer, but in comparisons with other elite point guards, he's someone who stands out traditionally by reducing team mistakes, which he does by dominating the offense and he himself making very few possession-ruining mistakes.