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Bradley Beal - Part III

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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1781 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:42 pm

keynote wrote:Re: the Dubs: it's true that the bulk of their rotation is homegrown. But their status as a contender allowed them to sign Otto Porter to a surplus contract. He's not getting as many touches as he was in his DC days, but veteran players who put up 39% from 3PT + decent defense, rebounding and passing don't sign 1 year, $2M deals *unless* they're signing with a contender.

So, to modify your previous statement, the three typical classes of surplus contracts are 1) superduper stars worth more than the max, 2) rookie deal players, and 3) solid vets who take less than the MLE to join a contender. Every now and then, a GM signs a non-superstar, non-ring chasing FA to a surplus deal, but that's rare, and the surplus value is usually fairly modest relative to the TCV.

The Porter signing is interesting because he was once so overpaid that everyone started hating him. I think that's another pattern worth exploiting. Guys that sign contracts that are way too big ultimately become underrated because people associate the player with the contract. Porter at $27M, with his injury history and overall decline in play, was an albatross contract in Chicago, but he is still much better than a $2M player!

I feel like that pattern worth exploiting. There are plenty of examples:

Bobby Portis was an albatross at $15M, but a great value at $4M
Nicolas Batum at $25M was terrible, but one of the best values in the league at $2M (and even now at $9M).
Austin Rivers was a disaster at $12M, but a nice bench scorer at $2M.
Kent Bazemore was a cap killer at $19M, but good rotation depth for Golden State at $2M
Cody Zeller at $15M is really bad. Cody Zeller at $2M is a good backup big.
Hassan Whiteside at $29M is bad. Hassan Whiteside at $2M is good.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1782 » by payitforward » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:16 pm

This is for sure true. Partly, of course, it's true by definition -- any player would be a better deal at 1/4 the salary than he is at his current salary. But, the other part is potentially of genuine importance.

Players get a rep from "disappointing" -- i.e. not living up to what they're paid, & it's hard to shake.

Similarly, a guy taken in the lottery gets a long, long rope no matter how bad he is. Jerome Robinson is the classic example.

The other side of that coin is what caused us to make such a mistake with Mathews -- a guy goes undrafted, & it's hard for people to believe he's really good... almost no matter what he does.

Christian Wood is another obvious example.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1783 » by keynote » Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:51 pm

nate33 wrote:
keynote wrote:Re: the Dubs: it's true that the bulk of their rotation is homegrown. But their status as a contender allowed them to sign Otto Porter to a surplus contract. He's not getting as many touches as he was in his DC days, but veteran players who put up 39% from 3PT + decent defense, rebounding and passing don't sign 1 year, $2M deals *unless* they're signing with a contender.

So, to modify your previous statement, the three typical classes of surplus contracts are 1) superduper stars worth more than the max, 2) rookie deal players, and 3) solid vets who take less than the MLE to join a contender. Every now and then, a GM signs a non-superstar, non-ring chasing FA to a surplus deal, but that's rare, and the surplus value is usually fairly modest relative to the TCV.

The Porter signing is interesting because he was once so overpaid that everyone started hating him. I think that's another pattern worth exploiting. Guys that sign contracts that are way too big ultimately become underrated because people associate the player with the contract. Porter at $27M, with his injury history and overall decline in play, was an albatross contract in Chicago, but he is still much better than a $2M player!

I feel like that pattern worth exploiting. There are plenty of examples:

Bobby Portis was an albatross at $15M, but a great value at $4M
Nicolas Batum at $25M was terrible, but one of the best values in the league at $2M (and even now at $9M).
Austin Rivers was a disaster at $12M, but a nice bench scorer at $2M.
Kent Bazemore was a cap killer at $19M, but good rotation depth for Golden State at $2M
Cody Zeller at $15M is really bad. Cody Zeller at $2M is a good backup big.
Hassan Whiteside at $29M is bad. Hassan Whiteside at $2M is good.


I think a player's negative rep as a negative value contract might suppress their marketability on future contracts, but only so much. And again, the vast majority of vets who were once good enough to earn a fat contract (that they later underperformed on) sign their surplus contract with contenders. Portis in Milwaukee. Bazemore and Porter in GS. Batum for the Clippers. Rivers in Denver. Whiteside in Utah. The only cheap value player in your list playing for a team without legit championship aspirations this past off-season is Zeller.

The salary cap forces vet FAs signing their third contract to choose between FMV and the opportunity to win. The surplus contract is *not* FMV, and is, generally speaking, only available to teams with a championship-caliber core.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1784 » by keynote » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:49 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1785 » by 80sballboy » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:49 pm

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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1786 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:48 am

A lot of good it did him. Seriously, if he took the vaccine recently, it probably explains him catching Covid despite natural immunity. The vaccine temporarily lowers you immunity for about 2 weeks.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1787 » by dlts20 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:16 am

nate33 wrote:A lot of good it did him. Seriously, if he took the vaccine recently, it probably explains him catching Covid despite natural immunity. The vaccine temporarily lowers you immunity for about 2 weeks.

Imo it was one of 2 things. He felt like covid affected his game the 1st time so he wants to be vaccinated as much as possible. 2, he sees DC turning into NY and Cali soon with the mandate right around the corner.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1788 » by Kanyewest » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:38 am

dlts20 wrote:
nate33 wrote:A lot of good it did him. Seriously, if he took the vaccine recently, it probably explains him catching Covid despite natural immunity. The vaccine temporarily lowers you immunity for about 2 weeks.

Imo it was one of 2 things. He felt like covid affected his game the 1st time so he wants to be vaccinated as much as possible. 2, he sees DC turning into NY and Cali soon with the mandate right around the corner.


Yup, DC issued an indoor mandate on December 22nd- after Beal already missed his some games. So a good possibility that Beal just received his vaccine after getting Covid... again.

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2021/12/22/22850906/dc-government-vaccine-mandates-indoor-venues
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1789 » by keynote » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:19 am

I wouldn't be surprised if his agent advised him that his unvaxxed status might hurt his upcoming FA value -- especially while he's otherwise slumping.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1790 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:22 am

Right now Bradley not playing is the greatest thing that has ever happened this season. You have the rightful guy Spencer did we no longer having to delegate. You have kiss bird playing 38 minutes and a video playing 31 minutes. You got guys named sword and all kind of **** on the team who I've never heard of because I really out of the loop right now

As far as I'm concerned when Ice Cube said **** the Police **** Bradley Beal

Nothing he did but right now he is privileged and has an entitlement mentality in the worst thing in the world would be to bring the guy back

I will tell you where I live I want you to meet me if you're brave enough to do it in person if you read this and you are Bradley Beal cuz I'm 60 years old

What needs to happen next is figure out a way to trade Beal to the Lakers because he needs to be playing right next to Westbrook
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1791 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:23 am

Bradley deserve to be in LA and he might have it 40 points a game
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1792 » by Super2477 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:42 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Right now Bradley not playing is the greatest thing that has ever happened this season. You have the rightful guy Spencer did we no longer having to delegate. You have kiss bird playing 38 minutes and a video playing 31 minutes. You got guys named sword and all kind of **** on the team who I've never heard of because I really out of the loop right now

As far as I'm concerned when Ice Cube said **** the Police **** Bradley Beal

Nothing he did but right now he is privileged and has an entitlement mentality in the worst thing in the world would be to bring the guy back

I will tell you where I live I want you to meet me if you're brave enough to do it in person if you read this and you are Bradley Beal cuz I'm 60 years old

What needs to happen next is figure out a way to trade Beal to the Lakers because he needs to be playing right next to Westbrook


Well said
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1793 » by prime1time » Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:44 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Right now Bradley not playing is the greatest thing that has ever happened this season. You have the rightful guy Spencer did we no longer having to delegate. You have kiss bird playing 38 minutes and a video playing 31 minutes. You got guys named sword and all kind of **** on the team who I've never heard of because I really out of the loop right now

As far as I'm concerned when Ice Cube said **** the Police **** Bradley Beal

Nothing he did but right now he is privileged and has an entitlement mentality in the worst thing in the world would be to bring the guy back

I will tell you where I live I want you to meet me if you're brave enough to do it in person if you read this and you are Bradley Beal cuz I'm 60 years old

What needs to happen next is figure out a way to trade Beal to the Lakers because he needs to be playing right next to Westbrook

Your post gives off very sinister vibes.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1794 » by prime1time » Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:52 pm

Super2477 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Right now Bradley not playing is the greatest thing that has ever happened this season. You have the rightful guy Spencer did we no longer having to delegate. You have kiss bird playing 38 minutes and a video playing 31 minutes. You got guys named sword and all kind of **** on the team who I've never heard of because I really out of the loop right now

As far as I'm concerned when Ice Cube said **** the Police **** Bradley Beal

Nothing he did but right now he is privileged and has an entitlement mentality in the worst thing in the world would be to bring the guy back

I will tell you where I live I want you to meet me if you're brave enough to do it in person if you read this and you are Bradley Beal cuz I'm 60 years old

What needs to happen next is figure out a way to trade Beal to the Lakers because he needs to be playing right next to Westbrook


Well said

What was well said? The fact that he wants to meet Beal in person? The fact that he wants to trade Beal to a team bereft of assets? The fact that he said f*** Beal?

The closest logical thing in the post is that Dinwiddie plays better when Beal is out. But isn’t the answer to that to figure out how to get Dinwiddie to play better when Beal plays? I mean a team with Dinwiddie is the best player isn’t going anywhere. One of the reasons teams want Beal is because they believe that his play style can mesh with other stars. If Dinwiddie can’t play with Beal who can he play with? Dinwiddie chose to come here because he believed he could play with Beal. Regardless, please explain to me the logic of scapegoating Beal for Dinwiddie’s struggles. Like do you think that Beal actively hopes that Dinwiddie plays bad?
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1795 » by prime1time » Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:59 pm

Can someone please explain when Beal became the bad guy? Also, folks here are delusional. “We’ll trade Beal, rebuild and be better.” Be better how? With a star that’s better than Beal? Ok, fine. Let’s say that happens. Let’s say we get a top 5 player/superstar. One superstar by himself isn’t winning anything. And then once again we’ll have one player calling all the shots for the franchise. The same way Luka does and Zion does and Joel does and Jokic does. This would literally be the best case scenario.

“Bbbbut he’s better than Beal so when we give him super max he’ll actually deserve it.” Here’s a question, given that teams like the Nets have 3 super stars, what is one superstar going to win?

Every team with a star is hanging on a precarious whim where the star dictates the future of the franchise. So if that’s what you’re frustrated with I have news for you, if you want a championship team it’s unavoidable.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1796 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:48 pm

prime1time wrote:Can someone please explain when Beal became the bad guy? Also, folks here are delusional. “We’ll trade Beal, rebuild and be better.” Be better how? With a star that’s better than Beal? Ok, fine. Let’s say that happens. Let’s say we get a top 5 player/superstar. One superstar by himself isn’t winning anything. And then once again we’ll have one player calling all the shots for the franchise. The same way Luka does and Zion does and Joel does and Jokic does. This would literally be the best case scenario.

“Bbbbut he’s better than Beal so when we give him super max he’ll actually deserve it.” Here’s a question, given that teams like the Nets have 3 super stars, what is one superstar going to win?

Every team with a star is hanging on a precarious whim where the star dictates the future of the franchise. So if that’s what you’re frustrated with I have news for you, if you want a championship team it’s unavoidable.

I don't understand the Beal hate either. For cryin' out loud, we just LOST the last 2 games without Beal. From the comments, you would think the team was better without him.

I like Beal and have no problems with him, other than I don't think he is a supermax player and I'm pretty sure that he is no longer on the upswing of his career. On a team that his clinging to a .500 record, I think we are better off with a younger Simmons making $35M a year, than Beal making $45M a year. But I say so with no animus toward Beal.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1797 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 2, 2022 4:52 pm

I just did a deep dive to try and figure out what Beal's offseason options would be, assuming we don't extend him during the middle of this season. I was trying to get a handle on what the worst-case scenario would be if we were forced to take the best offer available in a sign-and-trade.

The first thing I looked at was who would actually have the cap room to sign him outright without having to move heaven and Earth to dump salary. At team would need to get down to about $78M in cap obligations to generate the cap room to sign Beal to a Max. The list is small:

Detroit - they wouldn't go after Beal and Beal wouldn't go there.

OKC - they wouldn't go after Beal and Beal wouldn't go there.

San Antonio - with their two best players being guards and the rest of team in rebuilding mode, I don't see them going after Beal and I don't see Beal going there.

Orlando - They have the cap room and a need at SG, but there's only a small possibility they'd go after Beal given his age. In any case, I seriously doubt Beal would join them unless they really turned the corner late in the season and started looking like a force to be reckoned with.

The next thing I looked at were teams who could conceivably make some moves to get far enough under the cap to acquire Beal. I was trying to get a handle on who they would have to dump, and what assets it would cost to dump them. The way I see it, this puts a realistic floor on a Beal S&T because they would presumably rather just trade us those assets they are paying to dump contracts rather than involve a 3rd team. I came up with the following teams:

Memphis - They'll have a payroll of $91M going into the offseason. They will need to dump about $13M in salary, a bit more after accounting for their 2022 1st and the 2022 Utah 1st owed to them. It really looks like they'd have to dump Steven Adams $18M contract, which would likely cost two 1sts. Beal would give them a difficult salary structure going forward because Morant will cost a max in 2023 (possibly a supermax if he makes All-NBA) and they're already paying JJJ $25M a year and Dillan Brooks is up for a new contract in 2023. I figure if they're adding Beal, they won't plan on paying Brooks, which means Brooks would be included in a S&T for Beal. So a Memphis S&T would basically be Adams + Brooks + two 1sts.

Cleveland - They have a payroll of $106.7M, but $28.9M of that is owed to Kevin Love. If they move Love in a pure salary dump, they would have a payroll of $78M or so and be in position to go after Beal. Beal seems like a pretty good fit, though his age is a bit higher than the rest of the team. I figure it would take at least two 1sts to dump Love for pure cap room because the market of teams who could absorb him is limited to San Antonio, Orlando and Detroit. So a Memphis S&T would start with an offer of Love plus two 1sts for Beal. Maybe they would include Okoro.

Toronto - They have a payroll of $112M, but $33.6M of that is tied up in Siakam. If they dump him, they would have the room to go after Beal. But Siakam is already 27 years old, has been fairly lackluster and injury prone for 2 years, and seems to have an attitude problem. Would anyone just take Siakam off their hands without demanding compensation? Again, only San Antonio, Detroit, and Orlando have the raw cap space to absorb him. He doesn't seem like a San Antonio type of guy. Orlando has a zillion power forwards. Maybe Detroit considers it? Let's assume Detroit would be willing to take on Siakam if Toronto throws in a 1st. That means Toronto would offer us a S&T of Siakam and a 1st for Beal. I'm not sure Toronto gives up Siakam and a 1st for the privilege of paying Beal $45M a year, but if they did, that's what the S&T would look like.

Boston - I honestly don't see any way Boston can get far enough under the cap to make a credible threat to go after Beal in free agency. They'd have to dump Horford's $26M salary, as well as Marcus Smart and Josh Richardson.

So basically, the worst we'd do in an offseason S&T for Beal would be Siakam and a 1st, or Adams, Brooks and two 1sts, or Love, Okoro and two 1sts. I'm not thrilled about any of these packages, but at least I'm a bit reassured about standing pat on a midseason Beal trade and waiting for the offseason. We aren't going to lose Beal for nothing. I suspect this is why Tommy Sheppard doesn't seem to be panicking.

Note, other teams could surely engage us in Beal trade talks - something like New Orleans involving Brandon Ingram and picks, or Philly involving Simmons, or Boston involving Jaylen Brown. But they would have to give us fair value. They couldn't credibly threaten to sign Beal away from us, effectively reducing Beal's trade value.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1798 » by prime1time » Sun Jan 2, 2022 8:40 pm

nate33 wrote:I just did a deep dive to try and figure out what Beal's offseason options would be, assuming we don't extend him during the middle of this season. I was trying to get a handle on what the worst-case scenario would be if we were forced to take the best offer available in a sign-and-trade.

The first thing I looked at was who would actually have the cap room to sign him outright without having to move heaven and Earth to dump salary. At team would need to get down to about $78M in cap obligations to generate the cap room to sign Beal to a Max. The list is small:

Detroit - they wouldn't go after Beal and Beal wouldn't go there.

OKC - they wouldn't go after Beal and Beal wouldn't go there.

San Antonio - with their two best players being guards and the rest of team in rebuilding mode, I don't see them going after Beal and I don't see Beal going there.

Orlando - They have the cap room and a need at SG, but there's only a small possibility they'd go after Beal given his age. In any case, I seriously doubt Beal would join them unless they really turned the corner late in the season and started looking like a force to be reckoned with.

The next thing I looked at were teams who could conceivably make some moves to get far enough under the cap to acquire Beal. I was trying to get a handle on who they would have to dump, and what assets it would cost to dump them. The way I see it, this puts a realistic floor on a Beal S&T because they would presumably rather just trade us those assets they are paying to dump contracts rather than involve a 3rd team. I came up with the following teams:

Memphis - They'll have a payroll of $91M going into the offseason. They will need to dump about $13M in salary, a bit more after accounting for their 2022 1st and the 2022 Utah 1st owed to them. It really looks like they'd have to dump Steven Adams $18M contract, which would likely cost two 1sts. Beal would give them a difficult salary structure going forward because Morant will cost a max in 2023 (possibly a supermax if he makes All-NBA) and they're already paying JJJ $25M a year and Dillan Brooks is up for a new contract in 2023. I figure if they're adding Beal, they won't plan on paying Brooks, which means Brooks would be included in a S&T for Beal. So a Memphis S&T would basically be Adams + Brooks + two 1sts.

Cleveland - They have a payroll of $106.7M, but $28.9M of that is owed to Kevin Love. If they move Love in a pure salary dump, they would have a payroll of $78M or so and be in position to go after Beal. Beal seems like a pretty good fit, though his age is a bit higher than the rest of the team. I figure it would take at least two 1sts to dump Love for pure cap room because the market of teams who could absorb him is limited to San Antonio, Orlando and Detroit. So a Memphis S&T would start with an offer of Love plus two 1sts for Beal. Maybe they would include Okoro.

Toronto - They have a payroll of $112M, but $33.6M of that is tied up in Siakam. If they dump him, they would have the room to go after Beal. But Siakam is already 27 years old, has been fairly lackluster and injury prone for 2 years, and seems to have an attitude problem. Would anyone just take Siakam off their hands without demanding compensation? Again, only San Antonio, Detroit, and Orlando have the raw cap space to absorb him. He doesn't seem like a San Antonio type of guy. Orlando has a zillion power forwards. Maybe Detroit considers it? Let's assume Detroit would be willing to take on Siakam if Toronto throws in a 1st. That means Toronto would offer us a S&T of Siakam and a 1st for Beal. I'm not sure Toronto gives up Siakam and a 1st for the privilege of paying Beal $45M a year, but if they did, that's what the S&T would look like.

Boston - I honestly don't see any way Boston can get far enough under the cap to make a credible threat to go after Beal in free agency. They'd have to dump Horford's $26M salary, as well as Marcus Smart and Josh Richardson.

So basically, the worst we'd do in an offseason S&T for Beal would be Siakam and a 1st, or Adams, Brooks and two 1sts, or Love, Okoro and two 1sts. I'm not thrilled about any of these packages, but at least I'm a bit reassured about standing pat on a midseason Beal trade and waiting for the offseason. We aren't going to lose Beal for nothing. I suspect this is why Tommy Sheppard doesn't seem to be panicking.

Note, other teams could surely engage us in Beal trade talks - something like New Orleans involving Brandon Ingram and picks, or Philly involving Simmons, or Boston involving Jaylen Brown. But they would have to give us fair value. They couldn't credibly threaten to sign Beal away from us, effectively reducing Beal's trade value.

Good stuff. At this point in Beal's career it's probably going to be a crazy sign and trade. I'd put the Knicks on the list and the Warriors.
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1799 » by prime1time » Sun Jan 2, 2022 8:41 pm

What do people make of pg Beal? I think this is something that we will implement more and more. 17 assists yesterday!
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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III 

Post#1800 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 2, 2022 9:27 pm

prime1time wrote:What do people make of pg Beal? I think this is something that we will implement more and more. 17 assists yesterday!

It really does seem like it helps get Beal out of the mindset of having to score, and into the mindset of setting up others. Ultimately, that makes it much easier for Beal to score once the defense stops loading up on him so much.

That said, he hasn't really had to do it against a good defense yet. I don't think Beal can continue to keep his turnovers down against better defenses.

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