falcolombardi wrote:fwiw the ranking was only offensive, i actually am more impressed by kareem defense than shaq from what k have seen (i am low in shaq D) so i prefer him over shaq
as í see it shaq big advantage over kareem is offensive rebounding and off ball impact (particularly fouling out rivals) with his insane mass + quickness + motor* (in offense)
while kareem edge is that he is actually a significatively more efficient post scorer than shaq and a more "unstopabble" scorer contrary to what one could thinl
I'd add longer range and better passing for Kareem advantages. Off-ball play is interesting, as Jabbar himself was excellent without the ball - his positioning was always sound, he tried to establish deep positions and he rarely clogged the lane for his teammates. Of course he wasn't as good as Shaq at getting inside position, but he needed less to make it work thanks to his outstanding touch from in between area.
I agree that Shaq offensive rebounding and foul drawing abilities makes this comparison interesting, but I don't think it's enough to have him tier ahead of Kareem.
i pick shaq advantages slightly over kareem advantages mostly because my instinct tellm me kareem wouldnt be such a efficiency/volume outlier in the modern game as he was in his prime (i could be wrong of course) even if in absolute terms it surely would improve with the spacing
since post game as a whole is no longer the most efficient form of offense compared to slashers and 3 point shooters
Post game on average isn't the most efficient form of offense, but Kareem was a massive outlier in that aspect. In my tracking data (33 games from 1971-79 period), Jabbar averaged
16.4 ppg on 57.1 TS% from post up isolations. That's insane combination of volume and efficiency. Keep in mind that Jabbar played in an era that didn't favor efficient volume scoring, he had no spacing around him and couldn't physically attack defenders like Embiid does for example.
I don't think Kareem would average 16 ppg from post isolations alone, but 10 ppg on absurd efficiency isn't out of possibility (remember, Embiid averages almost 9 ppg from the post this season in lower minutes). Then Kareem has a lot more to offer - he was fantastic finisher inside so he could be used as a roll-man in P&Rs and I think he had good enough handles and shooting touch to use faceup game more with looser ball-handling rules. He was also a better passer than someone like Embiid, so you wouldn't waste your possessions on his isos all game long either.
but shaq offensive advantages like mass, forcing smaller defenders to foul him, off rebounding may actually be amplified in this era (not so much defensively where i think his weaknesses would be more exploited)
I don't think I would agree here. Shaq had versatile post game, but he needed to get the ball deep to become highly efficient. I think with modern defensive schemes it would be easier to prevent Shaq from getting the ball than it would be with Kareem. On top of that, it seems that defenders flop in the post more than ever today and refs are actually willing to call charges (unlike perimeter offensive fouls).
To be honest, I think both would translate just fine in the modern league, but there are far more concerns with Shaq in my opinion - even without touching defense which would be very problematic.
i can be completely wrong of course
how would be your list?
My list would look comparable, but slightly different because I don't evaluate players in modern environment. I don't think it's fair to criticize players for not optimizing their games to rules then never played in. I also think that to make it fair, you'd also have to do it backwards and downgrade someone like Curry because his game clealry wouldn't be as impactful without three point line.
My tiers would look like something like this (asusming we're talking about 2-3 years peaks):
Tier 1: Magic, Nash, Jordan, LeBron
Tier 2: Curry, West, Oscar, Bird, Jokic
Tier 3: Shaq, Kareem, Paul, Kobe, Dirk, Barkley
Tier 4: Harden, Wade, Durant, Erving, Wilt
Tier 5: Barry, Baylor, Pettit, Giannis, Moses
Tier 6: Gervin, Miller, Malone, Duncan, Hakeem, Embiid
Something like this, though I'm uncertain if I didn't miss anyone in last two tiers. Jokic can reach the first tier with better postseason run in the next few years, he's that good.
), 28,5 PPG, 13 RPG, 3,5 APG, %63 TS and 128 ORtg and against the 102/103 DRTG Teams. Also, Dirk with one more May on 29,2 PPG, 8,2 RPG, 2,6 APG, %67 TS and 124 ORtg against 105 DRTG Teams.
