Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, Knightro, Def Swami, UCFJayBird, ChosenSavior
drsd wrote:Max Power wrote:I’m not ready to give Weltman too much credit.
Orlando is 26-77 since Vučević was traded. All the pro-tankers must love that stat.
Skybox wrote:Optimus_Steel wrote:OrlandoSaban wrote:
Your post seriously made my day. Quite honestly, I am disgusted with this entire franchise and most fans who are by ok and wanting to lose.
This is not the Orlando Magic I fell in love with in 1989. I still remember begging my parents to please call the phone number on billboards for season tickets 89 MAGIC - of course at the time they could not afford them but my ex HS girlfriend’s Dad had season tickets and we literally went to every single home game
I absolutely hate the new arena. I hate the atmosphere. I honestly am at the point where I don’t even follow this **** show anymore.
I was so thrilled when my cable provider here in Destin finally got the FOX Sports that played Magic games instead of Miami Heat games. I would literally call and DM them on FB every other day begging for that channel. I would like to think that perhaps I was a small tiny part of finally bringing the Orlando Magic on TV in the Florida Panhandle.
I am sick and tired of hearing about our amazing youn talent and how every player is doing so great and how wonderful our coaching staff is and bla bla bla from the front office
I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.
I’m sorry but there should not be one single player on this team marked SAFE from being traded.
I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.
I am sick and tired of always purposely trying to tank.
I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.
Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage
So we got yet another lottery pick by losing.. what have we gained from losing? Oh, another lottery bust.. another laughing stock of a losing bottom team and quite honestly and embarrassment to the city I love. It’s a disgrace when friggin soccer and a college football team in the freaking AAC conference is more popular than the first pro team ever in Orlando.
Sorry for venting but I just disgusted and sick of it.
People say be patient.. how much more FN patient can I get? It’s been a FN decade of LOSING.
I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night
All you listed there is the fault of the careless Devos family and their insistence on loyalty and keeping Alex Martins around. Combined with the transient nature of Orlando, so many people from other places.
Is Alex Martins still a factor? I don't doubt he was during the Hennigan days... This is starting to sound like the "Thanks Obama" jokes when it rains outside.
OrlandoSaban wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:...for being an incredibly successful con man.
He convinced Magic ownership and fans that he should be allowed to continue in his job, even though he has failed to add a star player through 5 drafts and 5 free-agency periods.
But more importantly, he convinced them to give him a green light to tank the franchise and oversee another rebuild, even though there are *already* six players on the *current roster* who were selected in the top 8 of the last five drafts, and all six were acquired by Weltman himself (4 via draft, 2 via trade). How many top-8 picks does he need before fans and ownership say no more tanking? It is the most unbelievable con job I can remember.
These six Weltman acquisitions are all on the current roster, and all were drafted in the top 8 since 2017:
Jalen Suggs -- #5 in 2021
Franz Wagner -- #8 in 2021
Mo Bamba -- #6 in 2018
Wendell Carter, Jr. -- #7 in 2018
Markelle Fultz -- #1 in 2017
Jonathan Isaac -- #6 in 2017
That's a lot of lottery loot for the second-worst team in the NBA. How does the guy who oversaw this still have a job, much less the faith of the organization to keep tanking for high draft picks?
It's even more inexcusable when you consider that some of the best teams in the Eastern Conference are led by players chosen outside the top 4.
Milwaukee
Giannis -- #15
Middleton -- #39
Miami
Butler -- #30
Adebayo -- #14
Toronto
Siakam -- #27
VanVleet -- Undrafted
Chicago
DeRozan -- #9
LaVine -- #13
Atlanta
Young -- #5
At the end of the day I just don't understand how there's so much patience for this dude. He's hit on one draft pick -- Franz -- and even Franz didn't have the kind of impact that really good rookies have on their teams' W-L records. But Welt seems to have everyone convinced that being awful is heading in the "right direction".
I am also sick and tired mid fans refusing to want any change with players.
I have never seen a fanbase so persistent in wanting to keep a bunch of losers who haven’t won anything.
I am sick and tired that it’s always NBA World title or bust mentality with the fanbase.
Right now I would take a treadmill team over this hot garbage
I just want to see some competitive basketball- I don’t care if we ever win a ring.. I just want something to root for and see a competitive team play every night
), you can take steps - then pounce, it doesn't have to be (and rarely is) Suck, Suck, Suck, Contend. There are examples of many angles, but great orgs don't jerk around for long. I don't care to be a farm team for the big guys. 
OrlMagic05 wrote:So you'd rather be 51-51 and swept in the 1st round?.
pepe1991 wrote:Kings, Magic, PIstons and few others are threadmills lottery teams. Despite being in lottery for ages, never going anywhere.
Skybox wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Kings, Magic, PIstons and few others are threadmills lottery teams. Despite being in lottery for ages, never going anywhere.
so...do you agree with me that the logical next step is trade for a guy under 26(or so) or so that gets you OUT of the lottery? It's a step, not a finish line, IMO. We have some good young players who won't get much better by themselves.
Magic_Kingdom wrote:I’m always surprised how many fans still accept tanking when there are so few examples of it working. And again, Weltman has made and acquired multiple recent lottery picks already, all still on the roster, so why does anyone believe he just needs one more pick to turn things around?
ogmagicfan wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:I’m always surprised how many fans still accept tanking when there are so few examples of it working. And again, Weltman has made and acquired multiple recent lottery picks already, all still on the roster, so why does anyone believe he just needs one more pick to turn things around?
That's a lie that's repeated for no reason. So many teams have been built through the draft. The Magic teams that both contended were built through #1 picks!
Frankly teams who get lucky and snag a #1 pick or atleast 1-3 pick expedite their developing process greatly. The reality is the Magic have been unlucky the past decade in the draft. After being fairly lucky in the draft the draft in the 1st 2 decades you could say it's law of averages in practice.
The Magic holding off from making a push for signing till next year gives us 2 chances (this & next) at a top 3 pick and gives current pieces another year to develop without competing with a star we could sign for the ball, giving them more time to develop, like the Suns (built through the draft) development time before getting Chris Paul.
ogmagicfan wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:I’m always surprised how many fans still accept tanking when there are so few examples of it working. And again, Weltman has made and acquired multiple recent lottery picks already, all still on the roster, so why does anyone believe he just needs one more pick to turn things around?
That's a lie that's repeated for no reason. So many teams have been built through the draft. The Magic teams that both contended were built through #1 picks!
Frankly teams who get lucky and snag a #1 pick or atleast 1-3 pick expedite their developing process greatly. The reality is the Magic have been unlucky the past decade in the draft. After being fairly lucky in the draft the draft in the 1st 2 decades you could say it's law of averages in practice.
The Magic holding off from making a push for signing till next year gives us 2 chances (this & next) at a top 3 pick and gives current pieces another year to develop without competing with a star we could sign for the ball, giving them more time to develop, like the Suns (built through the draft) development time before getting Chris Paul.
Magic_Kingdom wrote:ogmagicfan wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:I’m always surprised how many fans still accept tanking when there are so few examples of it working. And again, Weltman has made and acquired multiple recent lottery picks already, all still on the roster, so why does anyone believe he just needs one more pick to turn things around?
That's a lie that's repeated for no reason. So many teams have been built through the draft. The Magic teams that both contended were built through #1 picks!
Frankly teams who get lucky and snag a #1 pick or atleast 1-3 pick expedite their developing process greatly. The reality is the Magic have been unlucky the past decade in the draft. After being fairly lucky in the draft the draft in the 1st 2 decades you could say it's law of averages in practice.
The Magic holding off from making a push for signing till next year gives us 2 chances (this & next) at a top 3 pick and gives current pieces another year to develop without competing with a star we could sign for the ball, giving them more time to develop, like the Suns (built through the draft) development time before getting Chris Paul.
"Building through the draft" and "tanking" are not synonymous. Tanking is an extreme form of *attempting* to build through the draft. Tanking means dumping all your good players and then holding out healthy players in an effort to intentionally lose to improve your draft lottery odds.
Golden State built their team through the draft but didn't tank. They got Steph at #7, Klay at #11, and Draymond in the second round.
Phoenix partially built through the draft but I don't think you could say they tanked. They got Booker at #13 and then were bad for 2 seasons before drafting Ayton at #1. Even with that, Ayton, their lottery prize, is the third-best player on their team.
Milwaukee built through the draft but didn't tank. They got Giannis at #15 and Middleton in the second round. They traded for Jrue Holdiay.
Toronto doesn't tank but drafts extremely well. They got Siakam late in the first round, VanVleet was undrafted, and after an injury-riddled season they picked fourth and took the Rookie of the Year, Scottie Barnes. Did the Raptors tank this season after getting the 4th pick, the way the Magic blatantly tanked after getting the 5th and 8th picks? No, they made the playoffs and gave the Sixers a scare in the first round. Do you think any Raptors fans would want to trade with us because they feel like they're on a treadmill after losing in the first round? Of course not.
Miami partially built through the draft but refused to tank. They got Adebayo at #14, Herro at #13, and traded for Jimmy Butler.
Even the Magic teams you cited aren't examples of tanking. The Magic team that drafted Shaq #1 was just bad and only three years old. And the Magic team that drafted Dwight #1 had T-Mac and Juwan Howard and was trying to win. They just sucked.
So again, I go back to my original point. There are very few examples of tanking being a successful team-building strategy. And I think part of the reason for that is that losing on purpose, or at the very least accepting losing, takes a psychological toll on your young building blocks. There is also, potentially, no end to tanking. What if the Magic get the sixth pick in this draft? Should they tank again next season? Just keep going until they get a top 2 pick? And if that pick is a bust, keep tanking?
bigdogdylan5 wrote:Tanking isn’t pleasant but I think it is the way to improve a small market NBA team. NBA you need stars and as a small market you need to draft them. Tanking is at its core improving your chances of getting a top pick to get those stars. There are plenty of examples of a team getting stars in smaller markets to improve especially recently. Hell all you gotta look at is our history. The only times we were actually relevant we drafted stars by being terrible and getting the number one pick. I think your lying to yourself if you would rather be middle of pack with no star no potential forward mobility. I want the chance at a great team. Just my opinion. I have had more enjoyment this year and after trade deadline last year then anytime since Dwight left. Time will tell if this rebuild will be successful but we haven’t even been tanking fully for a full season and half and some of you are literally losing your minds lol.
ogmagicfan wrote:bigdogdylan5 wrote:Tanking isn’t pleasant but I think it is the way to improve a small market NBA team. NBA you need stars and as a small market you need to draft them. Tanking is at its core improving your chances of getting a top pick to get those stars. There are plenty of examples of a team getting stars in smaller markets to improve especially recently. Hell all you gotta look at is our history. The only times we were actually relevant we drafted stars by being terrible and getting the number one pick. I think your lying to yourself if you would rather be middle of pack with no star no potential forward mobility. I want the chance at a great team. Just my opinion. I have had more enjoyment this year and after trade deadline last year then anytime since Dwight left. Time will tell if this rebuild will be successful but we haven’t even been tanking fully for a full season and half and some of you are literally losing your minds lol.
We already did the middle of the pack thing between 2018-2020 and it was the most disengaged I've ever been as a fan because there was no path to go from that team to contending. No players that were 1st or 2nd options on a contending team. Except some delusional posters thinking we were a Bradley Beal away from contending which was far from the truth.
We even already did the cut the rebuild short thing in 2016 when it was clear the pieces we had weren't sufficient to create a winning team and we saw where that got us! Trading Tobias for pennies on the dollar and a boneheaded Ibaka trade.
For a team that's been doing this recent rebuild for such a short time, why do some posters here have such an adament pressure to expedite the process and get it over with even if it compromises the amount of young assets we can acquire on the cheap, a potential star at that. We have 3 1st rounders the next 2 years that can all potentially be top 10 picks (if Lavine leaves the Bulls could end up a play-in team level), 2 top 5 picks. I want the Magic to win as soon as possible too, but I want to be a contender more than sinply winning just to win.
We have a window for signing free agents until next offseason. That's hypothetically when the Magic would try to make a big free agent signing and go into a "win-now" mindset. If you don't have the patience to wait one more season, that's on you. There is a beauty in the young struggles we see as our players develop.
Magic_Kingdom wrote:ogmagicfan wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:I’m always surprised how many fans still accept tanking when there are so few examples of it working. And again, Weltman has made and acquired multiple recent lottery picks already, all still on the roster, so why does anyone believe he just needs one more pick to turn things around?
That's a lie that's repeated for no reason. So many teams have been built through the draft. The Magic teams that both contended were built through #1 picks!
Frankly teams who get lucky and snag a #1 pick or atleast 1-3 pick expedite their developing process greatly. The reality is the Magic have been unlucky the past decade in the draft. After being fairly lucky in the draft the draft in the 1st 2 decades you could say it's law of averages in practice.
The Magic holding off from making a push for signing till next year gives us 2 chances (this & next) at a top 3 pick and gives current pieces another year to develop without competing with a star we could sign for the ball, giving them more time to develop, like the Suns (built through the draft) development time before getting Chris Paul.
"Building through the draft" and "tanking" are not synonymous. Tanking is an extreme form of *attempting* to build through the draft. Tanking means dumping all your good players and then holding out healthy players in an effort to intentionally lose to improve your draft lottery odds.
Golden State built their team through the draft but didn't tank. They got Steph at #7, Klay at #11, and Draymond in the second round.
Phoenix partially built through the draft but I don't think you could say they tanked. They got Booker at #13 and then were bad for 2 seasons before drafting Ayton at #1. Even with that, Ayton, their lottery prize, is the third-best player on their team.
Milwaukee built through the draft but didn't tank. They got Giannis at #15 and Middleton in the second round. They traded for Jrue Holdiay.
Toronto doesn't tank but drafts extremely well. They got Siakam late in the first round, VanVleet was undrafted, and after an injury-riddled season they picked fourth and took the Rookie of the Year, Scottie Barnes. Did the Raptors tank this season after getting the 4th pick, the way the Magic blatantly tanked after getting the 5th and 8th picks? No, they made the playoffs and gave the Sixers a scare in the first round. Do you think any Raptors fans would want to trade with us because they feel like they're on a treadmill after losing in the first round? Of course not.
Miami partially built through the draft but refused to tank. They got Adebayo at #14, Herro at #13, and traded for Jimmy Butler.
Even the Magic teams you cited aren't examples of tanking. The Magic team that drafted Shaq #1 was just bad and only three years old. And the Magic team that drafted Dwight #1 had T-Mac and Juwan Howard and was trying to win. They just sucked.
So again, I go back to my original point. There are very few examples of tanking being a successful team-building strategy. And I think part of the reason for that is that losing on purpose, or at the very least accepting losing, takes a psychological toll on your young building blocks. There is also, potentially, no end to tanking. What if the Magic get the sixth pick in this draft? Should they tank again next season? Just keep going until they get a top 2 pick? And if that pick is a bust, keep tanking?
MagicMatic wrote:[spoiler]ogmagicfan wrote:Magic_Kingdom wrote:
The 76ers example kind of proves the point that they have now gotten further, in the same timeframe, despite blatantly tanking compared to Orlando. The Magic squandered that job by moving Oladipo. Then I see people suggesting Franz/Suggs trades like they haven’t learned from that mistake.
This logic is flawed, you can't point to a bad trade and condemn trading to improve your team-regardless of present status or BS timeline. That's like saying "getting the #1 pick is a bad plan, look at Kwame Brown". Good moves are good. Bad ones are bad. Nobody should be untouchable - It's on Weltman to evaluate quickly and make moves at the highest value. I honestly think Suggs will be very good-but if Fultz is too, and they can't play together effectively, then shifting Suggs(for example) for a better fitting, equivalent talent makes sense.
Orlando had limited movable assets, no star pull, and this isn’t a free agent destination.
That was true but Weltman has put us in position to make good moves now. Young guys, good deals, extra picks, cap space (particularly in an offseason when few others have the same)...if there is a chance to improve the TEAM by moving pieces around, they should do it, even if individual value isn't equal, and as long as it doesn't hamstring the team's chances for further future steps forward. Again, the inferiority complex...this is Florida, the tax-free, weather state where people move to. What is needed to become a free agent destination? Most obviously, having a young star and a young roster with promise...like Mitchell or a similarly bold move -supported by Wagner, Isaac, WCJ, etc. If there's no hope, just yank the team out of here and move them to beautiful championship Milwaukee.
