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James Wiseman 2021/2022

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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1321 » by Scoots1994 » Sun May 29, 2022 5:19 pm

The-Power wrote:But this isn't me effectively calling to trade Wiseman – this is me saying that Wiseman should have shown the coaches enough to make them believe he can play a solid role (see McGee) for us next year so that they find consistent minutes for him.


This 100. If the coaches are not sure he can contribute then they should have traded him by now. I believe they are smart people and could see that the way we do. Therefore he must be capable of contributing in a positive way in limited minutes and have potential for more.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1322 » by FNQ » Sun May 29, 2022 5:40 pm

The-Power wrote:
FNQ wrote:Wiseman is gonna be on a minutes restriction anyways, but why are we worried about it? He might get more minutes in SC than SF.. if gets 500-750 minutes next year, great. Gives him time to learn or us time to shop him

If the Warriors believe that he'll still need time in SC then it's best to just trade him on draft night for the highest pick they can get. Because not only is he earning 9.6M that has huge luxury tax implications; they'll also have to decide on his 4th year option (12.1M) in October. And I doubt they'd be willing to commit that kind of money to a player they don't even see as NBA ready yet.

Or in other words: if they keep Wiseman and choose to exercise the team option on his final year, they must be confident that he plays a solid role for the team next season and plan accordingly. Solid role probably means consistent minutes as at least the first back-up 5. If that's too rich in their mind, just trade him for a Rookie (plus maybe a useful player) who they can then happily send down to SC.


I do think he needs SC, will go to SC, and wont be dealt.. mainly because of a million little factors. One, his trade value is torched and there's a certain perception of trading a former #2 pick after a couple injured years, especially a big. Big time egg-on-the-face risk.

I dont think they should be confident about anything with Wiseman, he's an expensive lotto ticket that we unfortunately already paid for. But Wiseman, pre-injury, was a deer in headlights playing the game. His moves were pre-determined, his rotations were late, he stopped the ball.. he's got a ton of floor game stuff to work on still, and we're doing fine without him contributing right now, and our system currently caters to having guys like Nemo and OPJ man minutes at C and do fine.

The 4th year option is very interesting though. I think the beginning of next year will be very important to determine if they do exercise it, and I'd imagine that if they were to trade him, it would be before that decision comes to pass. If it plays out like this year, we're talking 6-7 NBA games before its time to make the call. So my guess is that Wiseman walks into a role to start the season, and those games will loom heavy.. but we'll see
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1323 » by Scoots1994 » Sun May 29, 2022 5:58 pm

FNQ wrote:we'll see


I agree.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1324 » by CS707 » Sun May 29, 2022 6:03 pm

The biggest factor impacting Wiseman being dealt is Wiggins developing into a player that we want to keep. Wiseman represented a sort of pot sweetener in a potential bigger trade that needed Wiggins to be included for salary matching. Wiseman on his own isn’t going to generate an offer worth considering.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1325 » by KevinMcreynolds » Sun May 29, 2022 6:11 pm

Zero chance we’re trading him. Big Dick Bob doesn’t sell low, son.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1326 » by The-Power » Sun May 29, 2022 6:14 pm

FNQ wrote:The 4th year option is very interesting though. I think the beginning of next year will be very important to determine if they do exercise it, and I'd imagine that if they were to trade him, it would be before that decision comes to pass. If it plays out like this year, we're talking 6-7 NBA games before its time to make the call. So my guess is that Wiseman walks into a role to start the season, and those games will loom heavy.. but we'll see

6-7 NBA games are an awfully small sample, however. The coaches can most certainly take away more from training camp and pre-season than from this small sample.

But let's just assume they behave as you expect or want them to. They do not trade Wiseman but are not sure about whether to exercise his option either to start the season. So they have a couple of games to evaluate him, in which case they most certainly want those games to be actual NBA games. So what are their options?

1) They pick up his option because he showed them enough. In that case, I doubt he'd play in SC. Because why would he? If he played well enough to start the season (and before in training camp) to pick up his option, he can be penciled in to continue to play some consistent minutes for us.

2) They pick up his option but he has not shown them enough. That would be a value-driven move in order to trade him. In which case I don't really see the value of having him play in SC until a trade is found, and I'd think that it's probably a worse strategy to make a trade during the season instead of during the off-season.

3) They do not pick up his option because he hasn't shown them enough. In that case, he's gone and the Warriors are essentially forced to accept pennies just to get at least some minor value back. Their negotiation position in this scenario would be much worse compared to the time around the draft or after the draft but before the season has started.

In any case, I don't really see the value in having him play in SC (provided he is fully healthy and in shape to start the season) and I don't see the value in taking him into the season if the FO and coaches have doubts about his short- and long-term utility for the team. The only scenario in which it makes sense to me to pick up his option and play him in SC is if the FO is somehow convinced that he's a long-term solution but don't think he's even ready to play consistent back-up minutes in the third year of his contract – which, to me, seems highly unlikely and also a tough pill to swallow for Lacob and co. who'd be asked to really pony up on a huge gamble.

edit: And to clarify my position: I am not in favor of selling low, so the offer would have to be really enticing. My expectation would be that they keep him, pick up his option and pencil him in for at least a consistent back-up role to see what he can do. If he really doesn't show anything, they can re-evaluate the situation closer to the trade deadline or otherwise at the end of next year. But if they have serious concerns about his ability to even play back-up minutes next season, they should move him before the season starts for a useful player or solid prospect.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1327 » by FNQ » Sun May 29, 2022 6:22 pm

The-Power wrote:1) They pick up his option because he showed them enough. In that case, I doubt he'd play in SC. Because why would he? If he played well enough to start the season (and before in training camp) to pick up his option, he can be penciled in to continue to play some consistent minutes for us.


Poole was good enough to unseat Wanamaker, Bazemore and Lee before he got sent to the GL. Giving him more work to develop is exactly what they'd do.. and they did that for a 28th pick, of course they'd do it for a #2 pick. Unless we're already resigned to him being a non-descript backup C, in which case the option doesnt really matter.

We don't need him to just be a backup, so why settle for it? Forget contracts for a minute - Wiseman has played half a NBA season. Would a big who's only played half a NBA season be a logical candidate for the GL? Sure there are mitigating factors around it, but why would we need to deviate from the standard way of doing things? He needs to learn, and he needs minutes. One is best with the NBA team, one is best with the GL team, and we can shuttle him back and forth as needed.

In fact its probably one of the safest bets out there that Wiseman does log GL time
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1328 » by The-Power » Sun May 29, 2022 7:16 pm

FNQ wrote:
The-Power wrote:1) They pick up his option because he showed them enough. In that case, I doubt he'd play in SC. Because why would he? If he played well enough to start the season (and before in training camp) to pick up his option, he can be penciled in to continue to play some consistent minutes for us.


Poole was good enough to unseat Wanamaker, Bazemore and Lee before he got sent to the GL. Giving him more work to develop is exactly what they'd do.. and they did that for a 28th pick, of course they'd do it for a #2 pick. Unless we're already resigned to him being a non-descript backup C, in which case the option doesnt really matter.

We don't need him to just be a backup, so why settle for it? Forget contracts for a minute - Wiseman has played half a NBA season. Would a big who's only played half a NBA season be a logical candidate for the GL? Sure there are mitigating factors around it, but why would we need to deviate from the standard way of doing things? He needs to learn, and he needs minutes. One is best with the NBA team, one is best with the GL team, and we can shuttle him back and forth as needed.

In fact its probably one of the safest bets out there that Wiseman does log GL time

With Poole, it was a pretty unique opportunity due to the G-League bubble that provided him with tons of minutes in a very short period of time. That's not going to be the case next year for Wiseman, so this is a different situation. I also believe with Poole is was about confidence which he needs for his game, whereas with Wiseman they mostly need him to play his role. Of course he also needs confidence, but he should get that by playing a role that suits him and having success in that role – not by beating up a bunch of G-League players only to return to the NBA and play in a very different role.

I'm also not saying that we need him to ‘just be a back-up’ going forward; but it's what we need of him next season. So him playing a consistent back-up role with the main team is not settling for anything. It would be one thing if our goal was for him to get reps in a primary role that he cannot have with the main team until he's better or more comfortable at it. But with Wiseman, the priority is to get him up to NBA speed, have him play to his strengths, and get him comfortable in our system (and what it needs from a Center). All of that, I believe, is much better done in the NBA than in the G-League. We'll never need him to be in a primary offensive role.

Also, if we take Wiseman into next season, that will factor into our roster planning. I'd assume that like this season, we'll have Looney, Wiseman and a vet min Center on the roster in addition to a couple small-ball options. I doubt we'd want to invest more in that position. Perhaps they are interested in using one of the two-way slots for an emergency back-up 5 this time around. But either way: it means the minutes to consistently play are there for Wiseman. If he just plays in a way that does not actively hurt the team (which he should be able to do by now after having been around the team for so long, or else I doubt the coaches and FO have much faith left in him), he'll have enough opportunities to learn and increase his minutes by playing actual NBA minutes.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1329 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun May 29, 2022 11:16 pm

We should treat Wiseman as a future All-Star that needs to be developed. If we get lucky an All-star emerges.
If we get unlucky we wasted the number 2 draft pick.

Having sweet dreams about Wiseman stops us from signing a shot blocker to back up Looney. Wiseman is supposed to become that shot blocker that completes our roster.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1330 » by cdubbz » Mon May 30, 2022 1:35 am

How nice would it be if Wiseman was able to return by Christmas and develop this season.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1331 » by thunderdunk » Mon May 30, 2022 3:16 pm

cdubbz wrote:How nice would it be if Wiseman was able to return by Christmas and develop this season.


By Christmas? How long does it take to heal a minor knee injury? 18 months? The immediate question is, did they screw up that surgery, or is there some special issue with his knees? Although he's played just one college game and only half a season of NBA ball in the past three years, he's shown that he has/had some elite athletic skills. But he's still a very questionable fit with the way the Dubs play ball, and time will tell if he ever becomes a major contributor. He may end up becoming an all star somewhere else, after someone picks him up on the cheap. Or maybe he never becomes more than another cautionary tale about drafting an unproven kid out of high school. If he doesn't blossom into something special this upcoming season, I can't imagine the Dubs spending $30M to see him play another year in a backup role. The fact that his "repaired" knee couldn't handle even practices is a huge red flag.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1332 » by Scoots1994 » Mon May 30, 2022 3:41 pm

thunderdunk wrote:
cdubbz wrote:How nice would it be if Wiseman was able to return by Christmas and develop this season.


By Christmas? How long does it take to heal a minor knee injury? 18 months? The immediate question is, did they screw up that surgery, or is there some special issue with his knees? Although he's played just one college game and only half a season of NBA ball in the past three years, he's shown that he has/had some elite athletic skills. But he's still a very questionable fit with the way the Dubs play ball, and time will tell if he ever becomes a major contributor. He may end up becoming an all star somewhere else, after someone picks him up on the cheap. Or maybe he never becomes more than another cautionary tale about drafting an unproven kid out of high school. If he doesn't blossom into something special this upcoming season, I can't imagine the Dubs spending $30M to see him play another year in a backup role. The fact that his "repaired" knee couldn't handle even practices is a huge red flag.


It's not uncommon for bigs to take a lot longer. And there was a complication.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1333 » by Big J » Mon May 30, 2022 3:49 pm

Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1334 » by Scoots1994 » Mon May 30, 2022 5:43 pm

Big J wrote:Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.


Yeah, bigs can't really play in the modern NBA anymore.

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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1335 » by Big J » Mon May 30, 2022 5:51 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
Big J wrote:Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.


Yeah, bigs can't really play in the modern NBA anymore.

(NBA MVP finalists Jokic and Embiid say hi)


MVP is also a regular season award...
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1336 » by Old_Blue » Mon May 30, 2022 6:09 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
Big J wrote:Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.


Yeah, bigs can't really play in the modern NBA anymore.

(NBA MVP finalists Jokic and Embiid say hi)


If that's the case then why exactly did the Dubs draft Wiseman? :banghead:
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1337 » by FNQ » Mon May 30, 2022 7:05 pm

thunderdunk wrote:
cdubbz wrote:How nice would it be if Wiseman was able to return by Christmas and develop this season.


By Christmas? How long does it take to heal a minor knee injury? 18 months? The immediate question is, did they screw up that surgery, or is there some special issue with his knees? Although he's played just one college game and only half a season of NBA ball in the past three years, he's shown that he has/had some elite athletic skills. But he's still a very questionable fit with the way the Dubs play ball, and time will tell if he ever becomes a major contributor. He may end up becoming an all star somewhere else, after someone picks him up on the cheap. Or maybe he never becomes more than another cautionary tale about drafting an unproven kid out of high school. If he doesn't blossom into something special this upcoming season, I can't imagine the Dubs spending $30M to see him play another year in a backup role. The fact that his "repaired" knee couldn't handle even practices is a huge red flag.


Cartilage injuries could range from minor to major, because cartilage doesn't have nerve endings, which usually means that the damage isn't just to the meniscus, because by the time you feel pain its done some serious damage to something that actually can feel it, which is why the injury has a wide range of outcomes. Also younger people are encouraged to snip and stitch, because while cartilage does actually heal (misconception that it doesnt), it doesn't heal with the same smooth shape it had before, which can cause long-term discomfort if it isn't managed just right. And sometimes the body plays along, and sometimes it doesn't.

None of it is minor. An injection and being stabbed are basically the same thing on a larger scale, but you wouldn't describe the level of injury afterwards the same
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1338 » by clyde21 » Tue May 31, 2022 1:59 am

cdubbz wrote:How nice would it be if Wiseman was able to return by Christmas and develop this season.


wait, by Christmas NEXT season? if that's the case stick a fork him.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1339 » by Scoots1994 » Tue May 31, 2022 2:45 am

Big J wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Big J wrote:Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.


Yeah, bigs can't really play in the modern NBA anymore.

(NBA MVP finalists Jokic and Embiid say hi)


MVP is also a regular season award...


They were also dominant in the playoffs ... they just happened to have terrible teams around them.
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Re: James Wiseman 2021/2022 

Post#1340 » by Scoots1994 » Tue May 31, 2022 2:45 am

Old_Blue wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Big J wrote:Even if Wiseman becomes an All Star its going to be fools gold because he's going to get played off the court in the playoffs because he's never going to be able to guard the perimeter like Looney does.


Yeah, bigs can't really play in the modern NBA anymore.

(NBA MVP finalists Jokic and Embiid say hi)


If that's the case then why exactly did the Dubs draft Wiseman? :banghead:


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