Today's Derrick Rose vs. MVP Season of Iverson?

BossHoggin · Post #34 » by **BossHoggin** » Sat Mar 5, 2011 9:42 pm

dookieguy wrote:I think I take Iverson NOW.

+1 This guy knows his stuff he used to be a Nuggets fan.

therealbig3 · Post #35 » by **therealbig3** » Sat Mar 5, 2011 9:43 pm

Rose. Iverson is overrated.

NYK 455 · Post #36 » by **NYK 455** » Sat Mar 5, 2011 10:35 pm

Rose pretty easily. Better offensive and defensive player.

actrived · Post #37 » by **actrived** » Sat Mar 5, 2011 11:22 pm

BossHoggin wrote:
dookieguy wrote:I think I take Iverson NOW.

+1 This guy knows his stuff he used to be a Nuggets fan.

Allen Iverson, spoken through my avatar, approves this message

Post #38 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:02 am

If Rose is so much better offensively, why are the bulls 18th on offense with substantially more offensive talent? I would love to see the Sixers sustain that 13th offensive rating without AI. They could run the offense through SIXTH MAN OF THE YEARZZZZ Aaron McKie!!

Stop pretending like rule changes don't have a lot to do with scoring efficiency, we saw old AI under these joke of perimeter defense rules, and he was more efficient and had higher volume,

Rose is not an efficient scorer, and he's low volume comparatively.

He's not some offensive dynamo, he's cut from the same aggressive mold, but he's not as talented as a pure scorer and doesn't put nearly as much pressure on a defense.

JordansBulls · Post #39 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:15 am

If you are looking for humility then it is Rose.

NYK 455 · Post #40 » by **NYK 455** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 1:59 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:If Rose is so much better offensively, why are the bulls 18th on offense with substantially more offensive talent? I would love to see the Sixers sustain that 13th offensive rating without AI. They could run the offense through SIXTH MAN OF THE YEARZZZZ Aaron McKie!!

Stop pretending like rule changes don't have a lot to do with scoring efficiency, we saw old AI under these joke of perimeter defense rules, and he was more efficient and had higher volume,

Rose is not an efficient scorer, and he's low volume comparatively.

He's not some offensive dynamo, he's cut from the same aggressive mold, but he's not as talented as a pure scorer and doesn't put nearly as much pressure on a defense.

I'm far from a Rose homer, and I don't even think he's top 5 in the MVP race, but the Bulls have missed Noah and Boozer for a lot of the season, and that has hurt their offense more than their defense. The Bulls Ortg is 106.6, compared to the 76ers that year, which was 103.6. And Iverson has always been a extremely inefficient player, the dude only had one year with a TS% over 54, and a couple under 50.

Post #41 » by **slick_watts** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 2:02 am

NYK 455 wrote:I'm far from a Rose homer, and I don't even think he's top 5 in the MVP race, but the Bulls have missed Noah and Boozer for a lot of the season, and that has hurt their offense more than their defense. The Bulls Ortg is 106.6, compared to the 76ers that year, which was 103.6. And Iverson has always been a extremely inefficient player.

Just FYI, you can't compare ORTG like that across eras, you should compare them relative to league average at the time to account for differences in league rules among other things.

League average ORTG this season is 107.1, in 2001 it was 103.0. So AI's team had an above average offense, while the Bulls are below average this year.

NYK 455 · Post #42 » by **NYK 455** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 2:02 am

slick_watts wrote:
NYK 455 wrote:I'm far from a Rose homer, and I don't even think he's top 5 in the MVP race, but the Bulls have missed Noah and Boozer for a lot of the season, and that has hurt their offense more than their defense. The Bulls Ortg is 106.6, compared to the 76ers that year, which was 103.6. And Iverson has always been a extremely inefficient player.

Just FYI, you can't compare ORTG like that across eras, you should compare them relative to league average at the time to account for differences in league rules among other things.

League average ORTG this season is 107.1, in 2001 it was 103.0. So AI's team had an above average offense, while the Bulls are below average this year.

Fair enough, good point.

The_Answer · Post #43 » by **The_Answer** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 2:09 am

<-----------------

AgEnT50 · Post #44 » by **AgEnT50** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 2:23 am

big_ticket wrote:you know the ANSWER to the question...

tclg · Post #45 » by **tclg** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 2:45 am

I think its really close

Dark Radiance · Post #46 » by **Dark Radiance** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:08 pm

This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

X-Factor · Post #47 » by **X-Factor** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:17 pm

Dark Radiance wrote:This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

Seems as if someone joined RealGm just to answer this question. :lol:

Dark Radiance · Post #48 » by **Dark Radiance** » Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:39 pm

X-Factor wrote:
Dark Radiance wrote:This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

Seems as if someone joined RealGm just to answer this question.

II've always been a member here. I just like Prosportsdaily better.

mysticbb · Post #49 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Mar 7, 2011 11:22 am

Dark Radiance wrote:This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers.

It were two 50+ points performances, both against the Raptors.

But well, let us check some of Iverson's games in those playoffs. How about his 10-31 performance for 33 points and the 76ers win due to their better defensive frontcourt against the Pacers? Or a 8-27 performance for 21 points, sure as hell the reason for the win against the Raptors. Or 5-27 for 15 points against the Bucks and the 76ers win? Sure as hell some examples of the bad 76ers while Iverson had to carry them, right?

Dark Radiance wrote:Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games,

Seems like someone missed Rose playoff debut against the Celtics in 2009, when he tied Abdul-Jabbar's record with 36 points. Yeah, not a big game. And this season so far? Controlling big games like the one against the Spurs? Or more recently against the Heat last night?

And it is funny how everyone seems to forget how bad the Eastern Conference was at this time. The 76ers played the -0.77 SRS Pacers in the 1st round, the 1.69 SRS Raptors in the 2nd round and the 3.13 Bucks in the ECF. Heck, Rose leading the Bulls in 2009 to 7 games vs. the 7.44 SRS Celtics is much more impressive than the 76ers needing 7 games against two teams which were way worse than the 2009 Celtics (or 2010 Cavaliers). Big games? The 76ers in 2001 had 5 big games in the playoffs, in the 1st one the Lakers underestimated Iverson, because they didn't take him seriously, in the next 4 it showed what it means to play a big game for Iverson.

The only reason for Iverson winning the MVP award in 2001 was the weak Eastern Conference, if the 76ers would have played in the West, nobody would have thought about him being the MVP. And today people are using that MVP award to justify picking Iverson in a comparison were he is the slightly worse offensive player and worse defender.

Dark Radiance wrote:the pace was slower.

76ers in those 71 games with Iverson played on a 91.4 pace, the Bulls with Rose are playing on a 91.0 pace. Yeah, for sure the pace was slower in 2001 for Iverson. :roll:

eyeatoma · Post #50 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:06 pm

For people who think that Rose is better than Iverson. Watch this...

Iverson in his absolute prime. Nobody quicker, more creative on the offensive end, or worked harder to win within the game. Rose is good, but Iverson was on another stratosphere. People say they wish McGrady practiced. If Iverson practiced he probably would have won a couple of championships...

Thats the most amazing thing about him. Iverson never practiced. How many people can have a 27 ppg career average, and take their team to the finals, win an MVP, and be a 11 time allstar. There is no one in the league who had more in such a small package, like he did. Rose isn't even close to Iverson as a scorer. As a passer he is better, but Iverson is severely underrated in this department as well

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APa_9aXc4rg&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_U-WK7ey3U&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

actrived · Post #51 » by **actrived** » Mon Mar 7, 2011 4:32 pm

eyeatoma wrote:For people who think that Rose is better than Iverson. Watch this...

Iverson in his absolute prime. Nobody quicker, more creative on the offensive end, or worked harder to win within the game. Rose is good, but Iverson was on another stratosphere. People say they wish McGrady practiced. If Iverson practiced he probably would have won a couple of championships...

Thats the most amazing thing about him. Iverson never practiced. How many people can have a 27 ppg career average, and take their team to the finals, win an MVP, and be a 11 time allstar. There is no one in the league who had more in such a small package, like he did. Rose isn't even close to Iverson as a scorer. As a passer he is better, but Iverson is severely underrated in this department as well

I don't think this should be included as a positive. In fact, I think it counts against him.
"How's me practicin' goin make my teammates better?"

Derrick said yesterday, in a serious/uncocky way: "Jo sticks me sometimes in practice, so if anything LeBron is just bigger, way bigger."

He CLEARLY makes his teammates better by practicing. Numbers-wise AI has him beat, but Derrick generally shows tremendous poise in crucial moments and has the humility to create powerful team chemistry.

I love The Answer and would likely take him over Rose right now, but if Derrick improves at the same rate as he has, it'll be D-Rose in a year or two.

Bucksfans1and2 · Post #52 » by **Bucksfans1and2** » Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:10 pm

If Rose got the calls that Iverson did there wouldn't be any discussion for MVP. The same could be said for Howard though who would probably shoot FTs on every possession.

Shill · Post #53 » by **Shill** » Mon Mar 7, 2011 10:15 pm

I always respected Iverson's heart and toughness, but I think he's wildly overrated. I just wasn't really a fan of his style of play. He was the definition of a chucker. He didn't play with the most talented offensive lot so he had to force the issue, but jeez, that dude had no conscience about jacking 'em up.

I have no doubts Rose could score 30 a game, too, if he took 28 friggin' shots, and recklessly threw his body into defenders in the paint (but as I said, I respected that fearlessness about Iverson).

Iverson was great, but I think his style of play coupled with the streetball ascendancy at the time (every 5'8" dude at your local pick-up game spot wanted to be AI) has turned him into some mythical player.

He's a HOFer for sure, but some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread is pretty funny.