Is Hornacek the problem?

[thamadkant]

If you guys read that blog from Bright Side of the Sun about Hornacek's comments about the last losses.

He pretty much said the same thing some of us fans said here..

which to me says, He ISNT the problem.


1. There is a reason why Len isnt starting, Plumlee needs to get over his slump and taking away confidence isnt a way to do it. Suns need BOTH firing being productive because Len isnt going to play 36-38 minutes a night... not yet. You need Plumlee and Len interchangeable roughly 50/50 in terms of minutes, until Len improves.

2. Hornacek can ONLY show the Xs and Os and tell the players to do his thing, but apparently the players give up on the plays sooner than they should and opt for ISO plays (one on one) too soon. Again players seem to have chips on their shoulders trying to prove something, which is causing them to divert from the plays EARLY.



In regards to him not playing Ennis, Goodwin and Warren... IMO....the players ahead of these 3 are simply MUCH better at this time and are critical to the team... its hard to get minutes over Thomas, Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Tucker... when there is only 144 minutes to split in the PG, SG and SF spots.

But if the Suns/Hornacek was instructed to show case Thomas, Dragic, Bledsoe etc as much as possible to boost their stock... then you cant blame him... thats pure speculation by the way.

[Frank Lee]

A team loaded with marginal talent we likely produce marginal results. Last yr, H'cek coaxed an average outcome from a below average team.

This isn't a coaching problem.... this is a 'talent' problem.


I also believe coach and FO have decided to give certain players playing time to determine/entice their perception in trade land.

[Puff]

I am sorry for starting this thread. I forgot that Hornacek is perfect and should never receive criticism. All of our losses are obviously all about the players not the coach. All of our players suck.

I just remember it was the fashion of the day to criticize MDA at every turn while we were winning 60 games per year and visiting the WCF a couple of times. When MDA coached he had nothing but great players and all the losses were about our horrible head coach, the players were perfect. If any player had a fault it was because MDA did not coach them to get better.

[NTB]

This team lacks in the BBIQ dept.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

This. All the problems that we have are based on this.

Silly turnovers, silly fouls, silly offensive plays = Low BBIQ.

[Scutt]

In regards to him not playing Ennis, Goodwin and Warren... IMO....the players ahead of these 3 are simply MUCH better at this time and are critical to the team... its hard to get minutes over Thomas, Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Tucker... when there is only 144 minutes to split in the PG, SG and SF spots.

But if the Suns/Hornacek was instructed to show case Thomas, Dragic, Bledsoe etc as much as possible to boost their stock... then you cant blame him... thats pure speculation by the way.

Critical to what? Critical to sneaking into the playoffs as the 8th seed or ending up being 9th or 10th? Why is that so important? Why do you value that more than seeing young players develop? PJ Tucker, Goran Dragic, Gerald Green, and IT have all pretty much reached their ceilings, they are role players, very good ones, but role players none the less. Bledsoe is the only one in that group who could still have the potential turn into a perennial all-star. The Suns should be looking for a franchise piece to build a contender around, and those veterans, possibly including Bledsoe, should be viewed as trade assets to help get to that point.

Obviously, the youngsters like Goodwin, Warren, and Ennis are not going to be better than those guys right now, but they have the potential to be. This Suns team as currently constructed is looking like a .500 team that wins around 40 games. So you are saying the Suns shouldn't play their lottery picks because that might stop them from achieving that? I would much rather see them ship out some of the veterans and let the young guys get some meaning playing time. I would prefer a bad team, full of young guys that can improve over time, than watching a bunch of role playing vets fight for the last playoff spot year after year.

[Wannabe MEP]

And again, by saying you want Frye or 3pt chucking 4 instead of a decent defensive big man who can also score in the post, your saying that you want the Suns to be a 3pt shooting team that disregards the other phases of the game. Is that what you want?

First, 3-point shooting and defense are not mutually exclusive. A single player can do both well, and, more importantly, a UNIT (e.g., last year’s starters) can do both well.

Second, you want good 3-point shooters SO THAT YOU CAN SCORE IN THE PAINT. You want players to get the hell out of the way…and bring their defenders with them.

The last four championships were won by teams exclusively playing stretch-4s. The Heat actually had stretch-4s and stretch-5s on the court most of the time throughout their championship runs. Why? Open up the paint so their slashers could get to the rim. They failed to win a championship when they were playing mostly 4-out, then won two championships by switching to mostly 5-out. And you want to play 3-out?

We have similar slasher-type perimeter players. Dragic and Bledose love attacking the rim, but they can only do that when they have space to do that. Moving people out of the paint gives them space to do that.

What happened to Dragic when Frye left? Exactly what I said would happen. Exactly what’s happened in the past when you separate Dragic and Frye. See this thread: viewtopic.php?t=1307771

[Wannabe MEP]

I am sorry for starting this thread. I forgot that Hornacek is perfect and should never receive criticism. All of our losses are obviously all about the players not the coach. All of our players suck.

I just remember it was the fashion of the day to criticize MDA at every turn while we were winning 60 games per year and visiting the WCF a couple of times. When MDA coached he had nothing but great players and all the losses were about our horrible head coach, the players were perfect. If any player had a fault it was because MDA did not coach them to get better.

Calmate. Not sure why so defensive.

You didn't get whole-hearted, universal agreement. But several agreed, and others acknowledged that you at least had a point.

Chillz, yo.

I personally trust Hornacek much more than previous coaches, so I’m willing to give him some space with this inexperienced, awkward-fitting core. But at the same time, I’m definitely frustrated that he’s giving this much run to this starting crew.

[suns91fan]

In regards to him not playing Ennis, Goodwin and Warren... IMO....the players ahead of these 3 are simply MUCH better at this time and are critical to the team... its hard to get minutes over Thomas, Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Tucker... when there is only 144 minutes to split in the PG, SG and SF spots.

But if the Suns/Hornacek was instructed to show case Thomas, Dragic, Bledsoe etc as much as possible to boost their stock... then you cant blame him... thats pure speculation by the way.

Critical to what? Critical to sneaking into the playoffs as the 8th seed or ending up being 9th or 10th? Why is that so important? Why do you value that more than seeing young players develop? PJ Tucker, Goran Dragic, Gerald Green, and IT have all pretty much reached their ceilings, they are role players, very good ones, but role players none the less. Bledsoe is the only one in that group who could still have the potential turn into a perennial all-star. The Suns should be looking for a franchise piece to build a contender around, and those veterans, possibly including Bledsoe, should be viewed as trade assets to help get to that point.

Obviously, the youngsters like Goodwin, Warren, and Ennis are not going to be better than those guys right now, but they have the potential to be. This Suns team as currently constructed is looking like a .500 team that wins around 40 games. So you are saying the Suns shouldn't play their lottery picks because that might stop them from achieving that? I would much rather see them ship out some of the veterans and let the young guys get some meaning playing time. I would prefer a bad team, full of young guys that can improve over time, than watching a bunch of role playing vets fight for the last playoff spot year after year.

You have to understand that this is not a video game. Just by playing young guys and giving them plenty of minutes, doesn't mean they will get better. You become a better player by practicing and working on yourself (especially during offseason, since regular season is pretty dense, and players travel a lot). Playing in games won't help them too much. Playing in games is a showcase for you to show what you can do at this moment. I love when Warren, Ennis, Goodwin and other young players get playing time, but not because they will get better by it, but because it's nice to see what they can do. In some cases, giving plenty of minutes to young players can be even counter-productive, since they might lose motivation to get better, and often get bad habits along the way. I am pretty sure Hornacek knows exactly at what level our rookies currently are (since he spends a lot of time with them in practice), and he is distributing minutes accordingly. Also, we might be trying to increase a trade value of some of our players, and therefore they've been given majority of minutes. I don't think there will be any trades soon, but eventually i expect Green to be traded, and maybe one of our guards (Bledsoe or Dragic) if things don't improve.

[thamadkant]

In regards to him not playing Ennis, Goodwin and Warren... IMO....the players ahead of these 3 are simply MUCH better at this time and are critical to the team... its hard to get minutes over Thomas, Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Tucker... when there is only 144 minutes to split in the PG, SG and SF spots.

But if the Suns/Hornacek was instructed to show case Thomas, Dragic, Bledsoe etc as much as possible to boost their stock... then you cant blame him... thats pure speculation by the way.

Critical to what? Critical to sneaking into the playoffs as the 8th seed or ending up being 9th or 10th? Why is that so important? Why do you value that more than seeing young players develop? PJ Tucker, Goran Dragic, Gerald Green, and IT have all pretty much reached their ceilings, they are role players, very good ones, but role players none the less. Bledsoe is the only one in that group who could still have the potential turn into a perennial all-star. The Suns should be looking for a franchise piece to build a contender around, and those veterans, possibly including Bledsoe, should be viewed as trade assets to help get to that point.

Obviously, the youngsters like Goodwin, Warren, and Ennis are not going to be better than those guys right now, but they have the potential to be. This Suns team as currently constructed is looking like a .500 team that wins around 40 games. So you are saying the Suns shouldn't play their lottery picks because that might stop them from achieving that? I would much rather see them ship out some of the veterans and let the young guys get some meaning playing time. I would prefer a bad team, full of young guys that can improve over time, than watching a bunch of role playing vets fight for the last playoff spot year after year.

I'm one of the Goodwin fanboys in here so trust me... I definitely am disappointed that Goodwin nor Ennis nor Warren arent getting 10 minutes a game each.

But I believe that the Suns NEED to play Thomas, Bledsoe, Dragic, Green to maintain their VALUE for potential trades. If you sit them and play a rookie or a 20 year old, what does that say?

McD needs Thomas, Bledsoe, Green, Dragic to have enough value just in case HE does need to make a trade down the line.

[Scutt]

^ I see what you are saying, and I agree we should maintain those players trade value. To be clear, I am not advocating benching those guys for any of the youngsters. I just don't understand why a team , that is supposed to be in its 2nd year of rebuilding, is so insistent on having them on the roster to begin with. If we had never signed Thomas and brought back PJ, the team would be more balanced, while also providing minutes for Warren, Goodwin, and Ennis. I honestly think it would have been better for the team and the fans. Well, fans that are not content with being the 9th seed year after year and want to see the Suns develop their picks.

I would have preferred something like:

Bledsoe/ Dragic/ Green/ Keiff/ Len
Ennis/ Goodwin/ Warren/ Marcus/ Plumlee

[MathiasPW]

Growing pains.

It's not talent. Very similar roster to last year and last year did well.

It's not coaching. Same system, same assistants, same FO, same philosophy.

It's not spacing. Well, it SHOULDN'T be spacing, as we have most of same pieces as last year and a decent replacement over Frye in Morris, Toliver and even Tucker as stretch 4.

The pieces are all there. Players need to get the idea that effort is still necessary to win games (Horny has been saying just that) and best line ups filtered to see what works and what doesn't.

We will get there., eventually.

[Christine-In-AZ]

This Los Soles post pulled from the "Backcourt suffering..." thread is very applicable here.

Why is Dragic struggling?

1) Lack of spacing, because of lack of Frye. Duh.
2) Lack of court-time as the sole point guard.
3) The Morrii are ball-stoppers.

Everyone’s already discussing #1 and 2. But I think #3 is big too.

Tucker and Frye were off-ball role players: they focused on getting out of the way so that Dragic and Bledsoe could go to work. If the ball came to them, they were quick to get rid of it: shoot, pass, or (occasionally) attack off the dribble. If the initial pick-and-roll had the defense off balance, quick reactions by Tucker and Frye would keep the defense off balance. And if the initial pick-and-roll failed, Tucker/Frye were quick to give it right back to Dragic/Bledsoe so that they could go to work again.

The Morrii? They like to catch it, pause, size things up, let the defense reset, and then go to work themselves. They turn pick-and-roll action into iso-Morris action. It destroys the effectiveness of the pick-and-roll and takes the ball out of the hands of Dragic and Bledsoe.

Tucker + Frye combined usage % last year = 31.4
Morris + Morris combined usage % this year = 40.0

^ That makes a huge difference. Dragic’s, Bledsoe’s, and Plumlee’s usage % have all fallen significantly this season (i.e., the pick-and-roll is not driving the scoring).

[lilfishi22]

Yea but you have to realize that most of that success came when Bledsoe got injured. I don't think we produced as much from the Frye/Dragic pick and roll when Bledsoe was healthy.

We can't just have one play because what happens then is that when that one play isn't working, everyone goes back to iso.

It worked last year but again, I think teams are more observant this year. They know what we do. That's why it isn't working with Tolliver or Kieff. It wouldn't work with Frye either because teams have adjusted to it.

Other teams scouting reports vs the Suns probably says this: "Stop the Suns pick and pop with whichever stretch 4 they use, get back in transition and don't leave 3pt shooters open when they go to iso ball".

Oh and also destroy them on the defensive end and kill em on the boards.

Its too easy.

We were a solid 19-11 until Bledsoe go injured. With him out, we were 17-16. With Bledsoe back in the second half of the season, we were 12-6.

I'm not advocating we should have only one play in our play book, I'm saying we should identify the one play we're great at and build other plays off that. The Dragic/Frye PnP was so successful because it can be a go to option at any moment in the game or shotclock. We ran other plays outside of that but when we got stuck, we always had the PnP to fallback on. Right now, our fall back play is Dragic/Bledsoe/Thomas iso ball, which isn't really a play at all.

Also I don't agree with the notion that what worked last year wouldn't work this year. I certainly don't agree that teams are "more observant" this year. We played virtually 82 games last season with the same proven play and do you not think the Dragic/Frye PnP was on every team's scouting report? The only difference this year is that we no longer have that proven play we can fall back on. I don't believe Keef and Tolly isn't working is because teams are more observant. I think they just aren't suited to the role. Keef is not a catch and shoot guy and Tolly, well he's just been balls. I'm confident Frye/Dragic would still work this year.

What we need to do is dentify that one play that is hard to guard and build off it. It might not be a stretch-4 PnP game, it might be a mid-range triple threat game run by Keef. It might be a PnP game with Len.

Other teams scouting reports vs the Suns probably says this: "Stop the Suns pick and pop with whichever stretch 4 they use, get back in transition and don't leave 3pt shooters open when they go to iso ball".

Same could be said for SSOL Suns, everyone knew what our game was and only the elite of the elite teams could stop us and took the rest of the league 5+ seasons to catch up to what we're doing. It takes roster changes to stop a great offense.

And again, by saying you want Frye or 3pt chucking 4 instead of a decent defensive big man who can also score in the post, your saying that you want the Suns to be a 3pt shooting team that disregards the other phases of the game. Is that what you want?

No and what a ridiculous notion. We weren't purely a 3PT shooting team last year. Having a stretch big allowed us to get inside the paint. This season, without a reliable stretch big, we've been shooting more 3's. Last year we had more FTA and less 3PA than this season.

I've never said we should disregard other phases of the game. I have no idea where you got that from.

[thamadkant]

This Los Soles post pulled from the "Backcourt suffering..." thread is very applicable here.

Why is Dragic struggling?

1) Lack of spacing, because of lack of Frye. Duh.
2) Lack of court-time as the sole point guard.
3) The Morrii are ball-stoppers.

Everyone’s already discussing #1 and 2. But I think #3 is big too.

Tucker and Frye were off-ball role players: they focused on getting out of the way so that Dragic and Bledsoe could go to work. If the ball came to them, they were quick to get rid of it: shoot, pass, or (occasionally) attack off the dribble. If the initial pick-and-roll had the defense off balance, quick reactions by Tucker and Frye would keep the defense off balance. And if the initial pick-and-roll failed, Tucker/Frye were quick to give it right back to Dragic/Bledsoe so that they could go to work again.

The Morrii? They like to catch it, pause, size things up, let the defense reset, and then go to work themselves. They turn pick-and-roll action into iso-Morris action. It destroys the effectiveness of the pick-and-roll and takes the ball out of the hands of Dragic and Bledsoe.

Tucker + Frye combined usage % last year = 31.4
Morris + Morris combined usage % this year = 40.0

^ That makes a huge difference. Dragic’s, Bledsoe’s, and Plumlee’s usage % have all fallen significantly this season (i.e., the pick-and-roll is not driving the scoring).

I agree with his assessment, but definitely agree with #3.

The Morris twins are playing like homeless man's Carmelo Anthony...
They rarely catch and shoot off of kick out passes, instead holds the ball, dribbles in, ISOs and take a jump shot whilst killing ball rotation.

A lot of Suns fans like them, which is fair, but I can never consider them starter level on this team, because they simply dont have the star ability to be ISO players and thats what they DO a lot of the time.

[RaisingArizona]

Haha, people are really blaming the Morris brothers over our lack of passing? Look no further than our guards. Kieff is playing well this year- top 10 pf numbers. You would have never guessed it by reading this board.

[SideSwipe]

Roles, Roles, Roles

Teams are made of people who understand what is expected of them and they perform those same roles consistently. Our team is getting lost a little bit in the shuffle of minutes and spacing because of the amoeba-like roles they are being asked to play.

Is Dragic going to be in the corner, or is Marcus, or PJ. That will affect whether I pass there. PJ plays it closer to the baseline, Dragic cheats up a little, but marcus is right on the line. That will affect the pass I send over. Many of our plethora of turnovers this year have come from not knowing where people should be on the option passes. The slashes come late or not at all.

Defensively, we need to practice rotating, and knowing who is going to be behind you. If Len is there play tight on the perimeter because he will make the driver pass, if Plumlee is there though, you better hope he is coming from the weakside, because he is not keeping up well as secondary defense.

Here is what I propose

First Unit
Dragic (primary ball handler)
Bledsoe (Weak side 3pt elbow- focus on D)
Green (strong side position- catch and shoot off of Dragic/ Bledsoe drives- limited creating)
Kieff (pick man, elbow and out starting position to create interior space on the strong side, and hide height/size deficiencies and take advantage of shooting)
Plumlee (weak side positioning on the baseline or low block, for the drop off option pass)

Tremendous scoring punch- we have often been weak out of the gate, falling behind in scoring. We need points on the board in the first quarter. Both Dragic and Bledsoe command a double-team when driving the lane, which will create an open man option pass every time. Shooters on both side should be 3 pt elbow and down as the penetrators pass the FT line. Kief stays at the elbow, Miles on the weakside baseline. You can work that play about 6 different ways. The spacing is what makes that hard on defenses.

[mybloodisorange]

Roles, Roles, Roles

Teams are made of people who understand what is expected of them and they perform those same roles consistently. Our team is getting lost a little bit in the shuffle of minutes and spacing because of the amoeba-like roles they are being asked to play.

Is Dragic going to be in the corner, or is Marcus, or PJ. That will affect whether I pass there. PJ plays it closer to the baseline, Dragic cheats up a little, but marcus is right on the line. That will affect the pass I send over. Many of our plethora of turnovers this year have come from not knowing where people should be on the option passes. The slashes come late or not at all.

Defensively, we need to practice rotating, and knowing who is going to be behind you. If Len is there play tight on the perimeter because he will make the driver pass, if Plumlee is there though, you better hope he is coming from the weakside, because he is not keeping up well as secondary defense.


Here is what I propose

First Unit
Dragic (primary ball handler)
Bledsoe (Weak side 3pt elbow- focus on D)
Green (strong side position- catch and shoot off of Dragic/ Bledsoe drives- limited creating)
Kieff (pick man, elbow and out starting position to create interior space on the strong side, and hide height/size deficiencies and take advantage of shooting)
Plumlee (weak side positioning on the baseline or low block, for the drop off option pass)

Tremendous scoring punch- we have often been weak out of the gate, falling behind in scoring. We need points on the board in the first quarter. Both Dragic and Bledsoe command a double-team when driving the lane, which will create an open man option pass every time. Shooters on both side should be 3 pt elbow and down as the penetrators pass the FT line. Kief stays at the elbow, Miles on the weakside baseline. You can work that play about 6 different ways. The spacing is what makes that hard on defenses.

I'll even take your concept a step further. In an effort to clear up the guard minutes glut we trade Tolliver, IT & Green plus picks for a big which would even out our minute distribution dilemma; it may be a coincidence but Dragic has played better since IT has been injured so I think it would be just what the doctor ordered. Green is up for a cap killing fat raise as a free agent and we already have Warren, Tucker and Morris ready to soak up his minutes. We need that cap to resign Dragic.

Dragic/Ennis
Bledsoe/Goodwin/Dragic
Warren/Tucker/Morris
Morris/Morris
Gasol or whoever we can get in trade/Len/Plumlee

Having more bigs is nice because signing a decent backup guard would be cheap and easy. There are a lot more 6 footers than seven footers!

[Flying Colors]

i'm willing to give Jeff at least another season after this one before i start calling for his head, He is after all a Sophomore Coach, even coaches need time to develop in to even better coaches.

[Puff]

i'm willing to give Jeff at least another season after this one before i start calling for his head, He is after all a Sophomore Coach, even coaches need time to develop in to even better coaches.

After losing to the Pistons while playing midget ball with TJ Warren still solidly planted on the bench are you still supporting Jeff?

Maybe he should stop the daily 3 point shooting contest as the biggest part of his practice sessions.

I would think the focus should be on defense and rebounding.

[Revived]

I think its hilarious that Hornacek gets to avoid all criticism despite a team that is playing under possible the worst "system" in the NBA.

Suns "system" = transition, pick and roll or iso.

That's it.

Elementary school teams have better plays and systems than the Phoenix Suns.

Meanwhile Steve Kerr is showing how an unselfish team with heavy ball movement looks like in Golden State. God, can we trade Hornacek and all our picks for the next 5 years to GS for Kerr?

Sure GS has Curry but any Warriors fan will tell you that their playing with much better ball movement and players are lot less unselfish on the Warriors this year as compared to years with Mark Jackson.