Peaks Project #32

[trex_8063]

RealGM Greatest Player Peaks of All-Time List
1. Michael Jordan ('91---unanimous)
2. Shaquille O'Neal ('00---unanimous)
3. Lebron James ('13---non-unanimous ('09, '12))
4. Wilt Chamberlain ('67---non-unanimous ('64))
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ('77---non-unanimous ('71, '72))
6. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94---non-unanimous ('93))
7. Tim Duncan ('03---non-unanimous ('02))
8. Kevin Garnett ('04---unanimous)
9. Bill Russell ('65---non-unanimous ('62, '64))
10. Magic Johnson ('87---unanimous)
11. Larry Bird ('86---non-unanimous ('87, '88))
12. David Robinson ('95---non-unanimous ('94, '96))
13. Bill Walton ('77---unanimous)
14. Julius Erving ('76---unanimous)
15. Oscar Robertson ('64---non-unanimous ('63))
16. Dwyane Wade ('09---non-unanimous ('06, '10))
17. Stephen Curry ('15---unanimous)
18. Dirk Nowitzki ('11---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
19. Jerry West ('66---non-unanimous ('68, '69))
20. Kevin Durant ('14---unanimous)
21. Patrick Ewing ('90---unanimous)
22. Tracy McGrady ('03---unanimous)
23. Kobe Bryant ('08---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
24. Charles Barkley ('90---non-unanimous ('93))
25. Moses Malone ('83---unanimous)
26. Chris Paul ('08---non-unanimous ('15))
27. Karl Malone ('97---non-unanimous ('92/'95/'98))
28. Steve Nash ('07---non-unanimous ('05))
29. Anthony Davis ('15---unanimous)
30. Dwight Howard ('11---non-unanimous ('09))
31. Alonzo Mourning ('00---unanimous)
32. ???

Get it going. I'm still favoring Baylor, Harden, and McHale as my top three ballots. McAdoo, Hawkins, and Gilmore are also high up on my radar. Pettit, Reed, and maybe Frazier also loom on the periphery for me. Will try to make a post about Hawkins itt or next to get the ball rolling on his behalf. Target stop time will be sometime Thursday morning.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[trex_8063]

Will tentatively put out my top three ballots again....

1st ballot: Elgin Baylor '61
To some degree the volume vs. efficiency considerations of Baylor (among others from this era) should be viewed with a bit of leniency, imo, as efficiency and "finding a good shot" just wasn't on anyone's radar in the early 1960's. Any way you slice it, though, Baylor was an excellent (if not quite elite) scorer, and underrated playmaker for the SF position, as well as a GOAT-level rebounder for his position, and likely a better defender than some other perimeter players on the table presently (e.g. Nash, Harden).

Baylor '61 rs per 100 possession estimates: 31.1 pts, 17.75 reb, 4.55 ast @ +2.91% rTS. 28.2 PER, .227 WS/48 in 42.9 mpg
Baylor '61 playoff per 100 possession estimates: 32.5 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.9 ast @ +6.89% rTS (53.83% TS, which would be a little above average even by today's standards). 28.0 PER, .248 WS/48 in 45.0 mpg

Some additional stuff about prime Baylor in general (copied from prior thread):

Spoiler:

Here's some more info regarding Baylor's impact, draw your own conclusions.....

In '58 (before Baylor), the Lakers were 19-53 (.264) with an SRS of -5.78.

In '59 they obtain rookie Elgin Baylor (and he's the only relevant transaction that occurred), and improve to 33-39 (.458) and -1.42 SRS (improvement of 14 wins and +4.36 SRS). They would also make it to the finals by first defeating a -1.36 SRS Detroit team 2-1, and then defeating the +2.89 SRS defending champ St. Louis Hawks 4-2.
wrt to how that improvement was managed......
Yeah, we always tend to think of Baylor as primarily an offensive player; but there's some to suggest he had a significant impact defensively, too. His reputation is mostly as a "decent" (but not great) defender, though I wonder if perhaps his prowess on the glass reduced a lot of easy second-chance opportunities for opponents (he was 3rd in the league in rebounds right off the bat in his rookie season).
Because in terms of rORTG, the Lakers in '58 (before Baylor) were -0.8 (ranked 6th of 8), and in rDRTG were +4.5 (8th of 8, and +2.5 to the 7th place team!). In '59, their rORTG improves to +0.6 (a jump of 1.4, up to 4th of 8); but rDRTG improves to +1.7 (a big jump of 2.8, from a distant last place to 6th of 8).
The team is 33-37 (.471) with him, 0-2 without him.


In '60, an aging Vern Mikkelsen has retired, aging Larry Foust misses some games and is playing a reduced role, too. Meanwhile the offensive primacy of the wildly inefficient (even for the era) Hot Rod Hundley increases, as well as a marginally increase in role for the even worse Slick Leonard (ridiculously bad 37.3% TS.....that's even -9% relative to league avg; similar to someone shooting 44% TS or so today; you'd have to be an elite defender to get ANY playing time at all today, and no way would you be getting 28+ mpg and be 6th on the team in FGA/g.....goes to show how efficiency just wasn't on the radar yet). And they also obtained rookie Rudy LaRusso (who would eventually become a pretty good player, but is a fairly inefficient scorer in his rookie season). They also obtained the somewhat inefficient Frank Selvy as well as an aging 6'11" Ray Felix in mid-season trades.
Anyway, their rORTG falls to -3.4 (8th of 8), though their defense continues to improve to +0.1 rDRTG (4th of 8), as they finish 25-50 (-4.14 SRS).
The team is 23-47 (.329) with him, 2-3 (.400) without him.


In '61, we have the arrival of rookie Jerry West. He's not yet the player he would become, but nonetheless is the clear 2nd-best behind Baylor. This affords them to reduce the role of Hundley and Leonard in the backcourt. rORTG improves to -1.3 (7th of 8), rDRTG continues to improve to -1.2 (4th of 8).
The team is 34-39 (.466) with him, 2-4 (.333) without him.


In '62, West is now a legit superstar, too. Slick Leonard is gone, and Hundley's role is further diminished; LaRusso continues to improve and get more efficient. Non-surprisingly, the team rORTG improves to +1.4 (3rd of 9). Critics might argue Baylor missing games contributed to this improvement in rORTG, but I'm more inclined to think it's the additive effects of a) the improvements in West and LaRusso, b) the loss of Leonard, and c) the reduced role of Hundley; especially in light of the following.......
Baylor misses 32 games, not due to injury, but rather to military service: he's only able to play if he can get a weekend pass to quickly travel to the game, play, and then come back. So he likely barely gets to practice, and yet still establishes himself among the league's elite---->Per 100 possession estimates: 33.6 pts, 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast @ +1.34% rTS in a whopping 44.4 mpg.
The team is 37-11 (.771) with him, 17-15 (.531) without him. Some of his missed games may have overlapped with West's missed games, but the thing is: West only missed 5 games total that year. And NO ONE else in their main rotation missed more than 2 games all year.
They make it to the finals and take the Russell Celtics to 7 games. Baylor averages 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg, and 3.7 apg in the series @ 51.0% TS (+3.1 rTS). In a close game 5 victory, Baylor logs [what I think is still an NBA finals record] 61 pts (and I believe 22 reb as well).

EDIT: I'd also add this quote from The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball by John Taylor....

.....Fans specifically came to see him [Baylor]. When he was on military duty and playing sporadically, they called the box office before games to ask if he would be appearing. The Lakers front office had run figures calculating Baylor’s ability to sell tickets, and they determined that in games when he did not play, the Lakers drew an average of 2,000 fewer fans. That amounted to approximately $6,000 per game, or $200,000 over the course of a season….

Going back to our agreement that impact = goodness + fit + utilization......I don't think Baylor was utilized ideally (something that I think is unfortunately true for MANY old era players). Yet there's still several indicators of substantial impact circa his peak, especially in '62.

Correctly utilized, I think Baylor would be the best SF not named Lebron or Kevin Durant today: a roughly Carmelo Anthony level of scorer but a better playmaker, a roughly neutral level defender, and possibly the GOAT rebounding SF outside of Shawn Marion (roughly equal to peak Lebron in this regard).


2nd ballot: James Harden '15
Harden's probably the best pure scorer in the league today except for a healthy Durant (better than Nash in this regard). His defense is improved to where I think we'd have to declare '15 Harden a "near-neutral" defender (which is to say: "not bad"). He's also a decent rebounder for his position, and a very good (elite???) level play-maker for his position.
One question mark I have for him: given his style of play, I don't think there's anyone who benefits more from the no hand-checking rule than James Harden. tbh, if not for that consideration, I think Harden probably should have been voted in a few places ago.


3rd ballot: Kevin McHale '87
I kinda went thru a big comparison between Howard/McHale, which I'll copy in the spoiler; it details my difficulty in deciding between the two:

Spoiler:

McHale vs. Dwight is an interesting comparison......
Offense
Peak Dwight is much more athletic and---related to that---is a superior finisher: pretty much devastating when he gets the ball <3 ft from the rim; is basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from that range in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load, often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). Has developed a nice little short-range jump hook (with either hand), too. Draws tons of fouls (and was shooting nearly 60% from the FT-line at his peak; which is not good, but not godawful for a big either; getting a 60% ft-shooter to the line is still fairly efficient scoring).

Admittedly, that's where his offensive prowess ends. He has no jump-shot or range to speak of at all, limited repertoire of post-moves, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover prone.
Still, I don't mean to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. If taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell. Combined with even his limited post repertoire, this makes him a well-above average offensive player.


McHale, though, has a case for the GOAT where low-post game is concerned.
Great footwork, makes excellent use of his lower body to create space and effectively post up to receive the ball in a position to score. Has a myriad of effective moves; I especially like the quick fake followed by the up-and-under for the layup; or the fake shot low-side, fake shot high-side, then (when defend leaves the ground) he ducks back under for the easy layup. And he made these moves quickly, much quicker than you'd think he's capable of when you see him run up the court; he simply doesn't appear as though he could possibly move that fast. He has the short-range jump hooks, the fall-away jumper, was a pretty good finisher despite vastly inferior athleticism (relative to Howard); just very nice soft touch near the rim. Had range out to at least 12-14 ft. And >83% FT-shooter at his peak.
Guy was a scoring machine dropping 31.9 pts/100 possessions at 65.5% TS while playing damn near 40 mpg. Now certainly we can acknowledge that Bird's playmaking and the wealth of talent around him helped his efficiency. otoh, it also stole some primacy away from him. I could see peak McHale in other circumstances dropping 28-29 ppg (~36 per 100 poss) at maybe 61-62% TS in that time period.
And he's less turnover prone than Dwight, and a bit better passer (when he chose to do so, though he was mostly a black hole if you gave him the ball in the post......not saying that's a bad thing, fwiw, when you consider what the typical result of giving him the ball in the post was).

So offensively, I give McHale a solid edge.

Defense
McHale in ‘87 was an All-Defensive 1st Team forward, who often had to spend time guarding outside his position (on the opposing SF) to help hide Bird (though in Bird’s defense: Larry was a fantastic post defender). But that’s just one thing that helps illustrate McHale’s defensive versatility, because he was also an excellent low post defender, and he was also Boston’s primary rim protector, coming up with 2.7 blk/100 possessions.

So despite Dwight’s 3 DPOY awards (which I think marginally overstate his defensive value), I do think it’s close defensively. I probably give the small edge to Dwight, though, based him being sort of the sole anchor to his team’s defense, and the guy that they try to filter everything to.
Although in the past I’ve criticized Dwight for his lack of footwork and timing (where it relates to shot-blocking), noting for example that in ‘13 Howard was avg 3.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 4.9%; meanwhile a 36-yr-old Tim Duncan was avg 4.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 6.4%. Even though he’s (even after his back surgery) considerably more athletic than a 36-yr-old Duncan, he’s getting soundly trounced in his shot-blocking stats.
The primary reason, at least according to my observations, was that Duncan ascribed to (and executed) the fundamentals seen in shot-blockers like Russell and Dikembe, which involves keeping your arms up, moving your feet to stay close to the presumed shooter (so you’re in position to make the easier block), waiting for him to go up with the shot and then going up AFTER him to tip the ball just after it leaves his fingers…..a technique that requires attention to keeping your hands/arms up, footwork and timing; as opposed to relying on outstanding elevation.
Dwight has a habit of doing the latter: just sort of vaguely drifting in the direction of a potential shooter, then relying on his outstanding athleticism, gathering himself for a giant leap and batting at the air in region of the arcing shot (occasionally coming up with the amazing grand-standing type of block).

However, I will say something for this method: while strictly speaking it may not be as effective in actually coming up with blocks, it does allow him to CHANGE more shots (because as he’s more just playing a region, rather than a player, he can “get in on” more plays defensively). And I do see Howard change a lot of shots that he doesn’t actually get a paw on.

I’ve also previously criticized this technique of his because it potentially puts him out of position for the defensive rebound; but I think I simply need to retract this criticism, looking at Dwight defensive rebounding numbers (which are obviously hyper-elite).

So overall, I likely give Dwight the small edge defensively.

Rebounding
Here Dwight clearly has a sizable edge. Even relative to positional norms and expectations, it’s Dwight by a solid margin. I’ll point out one thing in McHale’s defense on this, however: part of what is depressing his rebounding numbers is what I’d mentioned above about him being forced to defend outside his natural position (guarding SF’s….that is: perimeter players)......this is at times putting him out of position for the defensive rebound.

Intangibles
This is sort of vague, and of lesser import. I’ll give McHale the edge here….he just seems like the better teammate, and the more professional and cerebral player.

Durability
This is the one that kinda hurts McHale. Based on all of the above, I’d give the small edge to McHale overall…...at least until faced with the reality that in his peak season, McHale’s body did break down and he played thru a serious injury (a friggin’ broken bone, iirc! Guy’s tough as nails) in the playoffs. While still good, even hobbled, he obviously wasn’t the McHale we’d seen throughout the rs.
Howard, otoh, was healthy thru both rs and playoffs at his peak. So that’s a consideration which brings the comparison roughly back to parity for me.

Honestly, I’ve gone back on forth on this comparison, and I’m still not sure who I’ll rank in front.

I did ultimately go with Howard based on health (and performance) in the playoffs, but it was really tight for me. With Howard out of the picture, I'm fairly comfortable going with McHale here.

[RSCD3_]

I'll kick it off

Ballot

1. Harden 15
2. Mchale 87


1. Harden 2015

The best offensive player from a goodness Impact level.

6.00/-0.50

In 2015 he finally quit being a huge liability on defense and became a slight negative for the year. Although admittedly he slipped up a bit into his habits during the postseason, nothing close to what he has before but it has to be mentioned.

His offense though was incredible from November to May. His basically held his playoff production which from starting where it did is a great feat in and of itself.

2015 RS 37.0 PP100 on 60.5 TS% ( +7.1RelTS% ) 7.7RP100, 9.4AP100 on 2.62 AST/TOV% Ratio, 0.265 WS/48, 118/103
2015 PS 34.3 PP100 on 62.0 TS% ( +8.6RelTS% ) 7.2RP100, 9.5AP100 on 2.01 AST/TOV% Ratio*, 0.202 WS/48, 117/109


* 2.32 AST/TOV% Ratio if I subtract the last game of the playoffs.

Anyone who is a better passer than him is a worse scorer and the opposite is true in this case, he has the highest offensive peak left on here due to a tricky style of play ala nash that allows him to shift into the lane against almost any kind of defender and have crafty finishes to draw fouls and score at the rim. He also has an excellent jumper which can be used as a release valve for the offense when a set breaks down.

Not to mention his playmaking is very elite for a SG and his impact in setting up his teammates is very valuable.

He's great at setting up the corner 3, in fact he lead the league in it last year by decent magin.

2 . Mchale

I think it's time for the lengthy PF to make his appearance. He was long enough to play C in today's days and even though his build was slighter, he was wiry strong and could hold his own against most centers of today's era and a couple of those back in the day. Because they already had Parish and bird could defend quick 3's they were able toi use him to defend 3's a lot with his huge wingspan, this probably dialed his defense. He was a good rebounder for a PF and a decent one for a small ball center, an that's without taking into account the capability of bird and parrish as rebounders which led to a decrease in numbers most likely.

His RS was seriously incredible, his offense may have been a bit more like a finisher than would be optimal from an offensive anchor standpoint but he put up high volume and high efficiency and his passing wasnt that bad for his role. It wasnt as good as in 87 from a RS standpoint but his playoffs definitely make up for that, he was great in the playoffs, an underrated and probbaly forgotten fact thanks to the 88 pistons winning the ECF.

1988 Mchale

1988 RS 29.7 PP100 on 65.6 TS% ( +11.8 RelTS% ) 11.0 RP100, 3.5 AP100 on 0.93 AST/TOV% Ratio, 0.205 WS/48 126/110
1988 PS 34.3 PP100 on 67.0 TS% ( +13.2 RelTS% ) 9.9 RP100, 2.9 AP100 on 0.94 AST/TOV% Ratio, 0.220 WS/48. 129/110


3.00/2.25

[RSCD3_]

Will tentatively put out my top three ballots again....

1st ballot: Elgin Baylor '61
To some degree the volume vs. efficiency considerations of Baylor (among others from this era) should be viewed with a bit of leniency, imo, as efficiency and "finding a good shot" just wasn't on anyone's radar in the early 1960's. Any way you slice it, though, Baylor was an excellent (if not quite elite) scorer, and underrated playmaker for the SF position, as well as a GOAT-level rebounder for his position, and likely a better defender than some other perimeter players on the table presently (e.g. Nash, Harden).

Baylor '61 rs per 100 possession estimates: 31.1 pts, 17.75 reb, 4.55 ast @ +2.91% rTS. 28.2 PER, .227 WS/48 in 42.9 mpg
Baylor '61 playoff per 100 possession estimates: 32.5 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.9 ast @ +6.89% rTS (53.83% TS, which would be a little above average even by today's standards). 28.0 PER, .248 WS/48 in 45.0 mpg

Some additional stuff about prime Baylor in general (copied from prior thread):

Spoiler:

Here's some more info regarding Baylor's impact, draw your own conclusions.....

In '58 (before Baylor), the Lakers were 19-53 (.264) with an SRS of -5.78.

In '59 they obtain rookie Elgin Baylor (and he's the only relevant transaction that occurred), and improve to 33-39 (.458) and -1.42 SRS (improvement of 14 wins and +4.36 SRS). They would also make it to the finals by first defeating a -1.36 SRS Detroit team 2-1, and then defeating the +2.89 SRS defending champ St. Louis Hawks 4-2.
wrt to how that improvement was managed......
Yeah, we always tend to think of Baylor as primarily an offensive player; but there's some to suggest he had a significant impact defensively, too. His reputation is mostly as a "decent" (but not great) defender, though I wonder if perhaps his prowess on the glass reduced a lot of easy second-chance opportunities for opponents (he was 3rd in the league in rebounds right off the bat in his rookie season).
Because in terms of rORTG, the Lakers in '58 (before Baylor) were -0.8 (ranked 6th of 8), and in rDRTG were +4.5 (8th of 8, and +2.5 to the 7th place team!). In '59, their rORTG improves to +0.6 (a jump of 1.4, up to 4th of 8); but rDRTG improves to +1.7 (a big jump of 2.8, from a distant last place to 6th of 8).
The team is 33-37 (.471) with him, 0-2 without him.


In '60, an aging Vern Mikkelsen has retired, aging Larry Foust misses some games and is playing a reduced role, too. Meanwhile the offensive primacy of the wildly inefficient (even for the era) Hot Rod Hundley increases, as well as a marginally increase in role for the even worse Slick Leonard (ridiculously bad 37.3% TS.....that's even -9% relative to league avg; similar to someone shooting 44% TS or so today; you'd have to be an elite defender to get ANY playing time at all today, and no way would you be getting 28+ mpg and be 6th on the team in FGA/g.....goes to show how efficiency just wasn't on the radar yet). And they also obtained rookie Rudy LaRusso (who would eventually become a pretty good player, but is a fairly inefficient scorer in his rookie season). They also obtained the somewhat inefficient Frank Selvy as well as an aging 6'11" Ray Felix in mid-season trades.
Anyway, their rORTG falls to -3.4 (8th of 8), though their defense continues to improve to +0.1 rDRTG (4th of 8), as they finish 25-50 (-4.14 SRS).
The team is 23-47 (.329) with him, 2-3 (.400) without him.


In '61, we have the arrival of rookie Jerry West. He's not yet the player he would become, but nonetheless is the clear 2nd-best behind Baylor. This affords them to reduce the role of Hundley and Leonard in the backcourt. rORTG improves to -1.3 (7th of 8), rDRTG continues to improve to -1.2 (4th of 8).
The team is 34-39 (.466) with him, 2-4 (.333) without him.


In '62, West is now a legit superstar, too. Slick Leonard is gone, and Hundley's role is further diminished; LaRusso continues to improve and get more efficient. Non-surprisingly, the team rORTG improves to +1.4 (3rd of 9). Critics might argue Baylor missing games contributed to this improvement in rORTG, but I'm more inclined to think it's the additive effects of a) the improvements in West and LaRusso, b) the loss of Leonard, and c) the reduced role of Hundley; especially in light of the following.......
Baylor misses 32 games, not due to injury, but rather to military service: he's only able to play if he can get a weekend pass to quickly travel to the game, play, and then come back. So he likely barely gets to practice, and yet still establishes himself among the league's elite---->Per 100 possession estimates: 33.6 pts, 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast @ +1.34% rTS in a whopping 44.4 mpg.
The team is 37-11 (.771) with him, 17-15 (.531) without him. Some of his missed games may have overlapped with West's missed games, but the thing is: West only missed 5 games total that year. And NO ONE else in their main rotation missed more than 2 games all year.
They make it to the finals and take the Russell Celtics to 7 games. Baylor averages 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg, and 3.7 apg in the series @ 51.0% TS (+3.1 rTS). In a close game 5 victory, Baylor logs [what I think is still an NBA finals record] 61 pts (and I believe 22 reb as well).

EDIT: I'd also add this quote from The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball by John Taylor....

.....Fans specifically came to see him [Baylor]. When he was on military duty and playing sporadically, they called the box office before games to ask if he would be appearing. The Lakers front office had run figures calculating Baylor’s ability to sell tickets, and they determined that in games when he did not play, the Lakers drew an average of 2,000 fewer fans. That amounted to approximately $6,000 per game, or $200,000 over the course of a season….

Going back to our agreement that impact = goodness + fit + utilization......I don't think Baylor was utilized ideally (something that I think is unfortunately true for MANY old era players). Yet there's still several indicators of substantial impact circa his peak, especially in '62.

Correctly utilized, I think Baylor would be the best SF not named Lebron or Kevin Durant today: a roughly Carmelo Anthony level of scorer but a better playmaker, a roughly neutral level defender, and possibly the GOAT rebounding SF outside of Shawn Marion (roughly equal to peak Lebron in this regard).


2nd ballot: James Harden '15
Harden's probably the best pure scorer in the league today except for a healthy Durant (better than Nash in this regard). His defense is improved to where I think we'd have to declare '15 Harden a "near-neutral" defender (which is to say: "not bad"). He's also a decent rebounder for his position, and a very good (elite???) level play-maker for his position.
One question mark I have for him: given his style of play, I don't think there's anyone who benefits more from the no hand-checking rule than James Harden. tbh, if not for that consideration, I think Harden probably should have been voted in a few places ago.


3rd ballot: Kevin McHale '87
I kinda went thru a big comparison between Howard/McHale, which I'll copy in the spoiler; it details my difficulty in deciding between the two:

Spoiler:

McHale vs. Dwight is an interesting comparison......
Offense
Peak Dwight is much more athletic and---related to that---is a superior finisher: pretty much devastating when he gets the ball <3 ft from the rim; is basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from that range in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load, often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). Has developed a nice little short-range jump hook (with either hand), too. Draws tons of fouls (and was shooting nearly 60% from the FT-line at his peak; which is not good, but not godawful for a big either; getting a 60% ft-shooter to the line is still fairly efficient scoring).

Admittedly, that's where his offensive prowess ends. He has no jump-shot or range to speak of at all, limited repertoire of post-moves, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover prone.
Still, I don't mean to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. If taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell. Combined with even his limited post repertoire, this makes him a well-above average offensive player.


McHale, though, has a case for the GOAT where low-post game is concerned.
Great footwork, makes excellent use of his lower body to create space and effectively post up to receive the ball in a position to score. Has a myriad of effective moves; I especially like the quick fake followed by the up-and-under for the layup; or the fake shot low-side, fake shot high-side, then (when defend leaves the ground) he ducks back under for the easy layup. And he made these moves quickly, much quicker than you'd think he's capable of when you see him run up the court; he simply doesn't appear as though he could possibly move that fast. He has the short-range jump hooks, the fall-away jumper, was a pretty good finisher despite vastly inferior athleticism (relative to Howard); just very nice soft touch near the rim. Had range out to at least 12-14 ft. And >83% FT-shooter at his peak.
Guy was a scoring machine dropping 31.9 pts/100 possessions at 65.5% TS while playing damn near 40 mpg. Now certainly we can acknowledge that Bird's playmaking and the wealth of talent around him helped his efficiency. otoh, it also stole some primacy away from him. I could see peak McHale in other circumstances dropping 28-29 ppg (~36 per 100 poss) at maybe 61-62% TS in that time period.
And he's less turnover prone than Dwight, and a bit better passer (when he chose to do so, though he was mostly a black hole if you gave him the ball in the post......not saying that's a bad thing, fwiw, when you consider what the typical result of giving him the ball in the post was).

So offensively, I give McHale a solid edge.

Defense
McHale in ‘87 was an All-Defensive 1st Team forward, who often had to spend time guarding outside his position (on the opposing SF) to help hide Bird (though in Bird’s defense: Larry was a fantastic post defender). But that’s just one thing that helps illustrate McHale’s defensive versatility, because he was also an excellent low post defender, and he was also Boston’s primary rim protector, coming up with 2.7 blk/100 possessions.

So despite Dwight’s 3 DPOY awards (which I think marginally overstate his defensive value), I do think it’s close defensively. I probably give the small edge to Dwight, though, based him being sort of the sole anchor to his team’s defense, and the guy that they try to filter everything to.
Although in the past I’ve criticized Dwight for his lack of footwork and timing (where it relates to shot-blocking), noting for example that in ‘13 Howard was avg 3.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 4.9%; meanwhile a 36-yr-old Tim Duncan was avg 4.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 6.4%. Even though he’s (even after his back surgery) considerably more athletic than a 36-yr-old Duncan, he’s getting soundly trounced in his shot-blocking stats.
The primary reason, at least according to my observations, was that Duncan ascribed to (and executed) the fundamentals seen in shot-blockers like Russell and Dikembe, which involves keeping your arms up, moving your feet to stay close to the presumed shooter (so you’re in position to make the easier block), waiting for him to go up with the shot and then going up AFTER him to tip the ball just after it leaves his fingers…..a technique that requires attention to keeping your hands/arms up, footwork and timing; as opposed to relying on outstanding elevation.
Dwight has a habit of doing the latter: just sort of vaguely drifting in the direction of a potential shooter, then relying on his outstanding athleticism, gathering himself for a giant leap and batting at the air in region of the arcing shot (occasionally coming up with the amazing grand-standing type of block).

However, I will say something for this method: while strictly speaking it may not be as effective in actually coming up with blocks, it does allow him to CHANGE more shots (because as he’s more just playing a region, rather than a player, he can “get in on” more plays defensively). And I do see Howard change a lot of shots that he doesn’t actually get a paw on.

I’ve also previously criticized this technique of his because it potentially puts him out of position for the defensive rebound; but I think I simply need to retract this criticism, looking at Dwight defensive rebounding numbers (which are obviously hyper-elite).

So overall, I likely give Dwight the small edge defensively.

Rebounding
Here Dwight clearly has a sizable edge. Even relative to positional norms and expectations, it’s Dwight by a solid margin. I’ll point out one thing in McHale’s defense on this, however: part of what is depressing his rebounding numbers is what I’d mentioned above about him being forced to defend outside his natural position (guarding SF’s….that is: perimeter players)......this is at times putting him out of position for the defensive rebound.

Intangibles
This is sort of vague, and of lesser import. I’ll give McHale the edge here….he just seems like the better teammate, and the more professional and cerebral player.

Durability
This is the one that kinda hurts McHale. Based on all of the above, I’d give the small edge to McHale overall…...at least until faced with the reality that in his peak season, McHale’s body did break down and he played thru a serious injury (a friggin’ broken bone, iirc! Guy’s tough as nails) in the playoffs. While still good, even hobbled, he obviously wasn’t the McHale we’d seen throughout the rs.
Howard, otoh, was healthy thru both rs and playoffs at his peak. So that’s a consideration which brings the comparison roughly back to parity for me.

Honestly, I’ve gone back on forth on this comparison, and I’m still not sure who I’ll rank in front.

I did ultimately go with Howard based on health (and performance) in the playoffs, but it was really tight for me. With Howard out of the picture, I'm fairly comfortable going with McHale here.

How do you feel about Baylor's defense for the time period. Average or above average? And how much of a negative's is harden's?

[trex_8063]

Will tentatively put out my top three ballots again....

1st ballot: Elgin Baylor '61
To some degree the volume vs. efficiency considerations of Baylor (among others from this era) should be viewed with a bit of leniency, imo, as efficiency and "finding a good shot" just wasn't on anyone's radar in the early 1960's. Any way you slice it, though, Baylor was an excellent (if not quite elite) scorer, and underrated playmaker for the SF position, as well as a GOAT-level rebounder for his position, and likely a better defender than some other perimeter players on the table presently (e.g. Nash, Harden).

Baylor '61 rs per 100 possession estimates: 31.1 pts, 17.75 reb, 4.55 ast @ +2.91% rTS. 28.2 PER, .227 WS/48 in 42.9 mpg
Baylor '61 playoff per 100 possession estimates: 32.5 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.9 ast @ +6.89% rTS (53.83% TS, which would be a little above average even by today's standards). 28.0 PER, .248 WS/48 in 45.0 mpg

Some additional stuff about prime Baylor in general (copied from prior thread):

Spoiler:

Here's some more info regarding Baylor's impact, draw your own conclusions.....

In '58 (before Baylor), the Lakers were 19-53 (.264) with an SRS of -5.78.

In '59 they obtain rookie Elgin Baylor (and he's the only relevant transaction that occurred), and improve to 33-39 (.458) and -1.42 SRS (improvement of 14 wins and +4.36 SRS). They would also make it to the finals by first defeating a -1.36 SRS Detroit team 2-1, and then defeating the +2.89 SRS defending champ St. Louis Hawks 4-2.
wrt to how that improvement was managed......
Yeah, we always tend to think of Baylor as primarily an offensive player; but there's some to suggest he had a significant impact defensively, too. His reputation is mostly as a "decent" (but not great) defender, though I wonder if perhaps his prowess on the glass reduced a lot of easy second-chance opportunities for opponents (he was 3rd in the league in rebounds right off the bat in his rookie season).
Because in terms of rORTG, the Lakers in '58 (before Baylor) were -0.8 (ranked 6th of 8), and in rDRTG were +4.5 (8th of 8, and +2.5 to the 7th place team!). In '59, their rORTG improves to +0.6 (a jump of 1.4, up to 4th of 8); but rDRTG improves to +1.7 (a big jump of 2.8, from a distant last place to 6th of 8).
The team is 33-37 (.471) with him, 0-2 without him.


In '60, an aging Vern Mikkelsen has retired, aging Larry Foust misses some games and is playing a reduced role, too. Meanwhile the offensive primacy of the wildly inefficient (even for the era) Hot Rod Hundley increases, as well as a marginally increase in role for the even worse Slick Leonard (ridiculously bad 37.3% TS.....that's even -9% relative to league avg; similar to someone shooting 44% TS or so today; you'd have to be an elite defender to get ANY playing time at all today, and no way would you be getting 28+ mpg and be 6th on the team in FGA/g.....goes to show how efficiency just wasn't on the radar yet). And they also obtained rookie Rudy LaRusso (who would eventually become a pretty good player, but is a fairly inefficient scorer in his rookie season). They also obtained the somewhat inefficient Frank Selvy as well as an aging 6'11" Ray Felix in mid-season trades.
Anyway, their rORTG falls to -3.4 (8th of 8), though their defense continues to improve to +0.1 rDRTG (4th of 8), as they finish 25-50 (-4.14 SRS).
The team is 23-47 (.329) with him, 2-3 (.400) without him.


In '61, we have the arrival of rookie Jerry West. He's not yet the player he would become, but nonetheless is the clear 2nd-best behind Baylor. This affords them to reduce the role of Hundley and Leonard in the backcourt. rORTG improves to -1.3 (7th of 8), rDRTG continues to improve to -1.2 (4th of 8).
The team is 34-39 (.466) with him, 2-4 (.333) without him.


In '62, West is now a legit superstar, too. Slick Leonard is gone, and Hundley's role is further diminished; LaRusso continues to improve and get more efficient. Non-surprisingly, the team rORTG improves to +1.4 (3rd of 9). Critics might argue Baylor missing games contributed to this improvement in rORTG, but I'm more inclined to think it's the additive effects of a) the improvements in West and LaRusso, b) the loss of Leonard, and c) the reduced role of Hundley; especially in light of the following.......
Baylor misses 32 games, not due to injury, but rather to military service: he's only able to play if he can get a weekend pass to quickly travel to the game, play, and then come back. So he likely barely gets to practice, and yet still establishes himself among the league's elite---->Per 100 possession estimates: 33.6 pts, 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast @ +1.34% rTS in a whopping 44.4 mpg.
The team is 37-11 (.771) with him, 17-15 (.531) without him. Some of his missed games may have overlapped with West's missed games, but the thing is: West only missed 5 games total that year. And NO ONE else in their main rotation missed more than 2 games all year.
They make it to the finals and take the Russell Celtics to 7 games. Baylor averages 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg, and 3.7 apg in the series @ 51.0% TS (+3.1 rTS). In a close game 5 victory, Baylor logs [what I think is still an NBA finals record] 61 pts (and I believe 22 reb as well).

EDIT: I'd also add this quote from The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball by John Taylor....

.....Fans specifically came to see him [Baylor]. When he was on military duty and playing sporadically, they called the box office before games to ask if he would be appearing. The Lakers front office had run figures calculating Baylor’s ability to sell tickets, and they determined that in games when he did not play, the Lakers drew an average of 2,000 fewer fans. That amounted to approximately $6,000 per game, or $200,000 over the course of a season….

Going back to our agreement that impact = goodness + fit + utilization......I don't think Baylor was utilized ideally (something that I think is unfortunately true for MANY old era players). Yet there's still several indicators of substantial impact circa his peak, especially in '62.

Correctly utilized, I think Baylor would be the best SF not named Lebron or Kevin Durant today: a roughly Carmelo Anthony level of scorer but a better playmaker, a roughly neutral level defender, and possibly the GOAT rebounding SF outside of Shawn Marion (roughly equal to peak Lebron in this regard).


2nd ballot: James Harden '15
Harden's probably the best pure scorer in the league today except for a healthy Durant (better than Nash in this regard). His defense is improved to where I think we'd have to declare '15 Harden a "near-neutral" defender (which is to say: "not bad"). He's also a decent rebounder for his position, and a very good (elite???) level play-maker for his position.
One question mark I have for him: given his style of play, I don't think there's anyone who benefits more from the no hand-checking rule than James Harden. tbh, if not for that consideration, I think Harden probably should have been voted in a few places ago.


3rd ballot: Kevin McHale '87
I kinda went thru a big comparison between Howard/McHale, which I'll copy in the spoiler; it details my difficulty in deciding between the two:

Spoiler:

McHale vs. Dwight is an interesting comparison......
Offense
Peak Dwight is much more athletic and---related to that---is a superior finisher: pretty much devastating when he gets the ball <3 ft from the rim; is basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from that range in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load, often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). Has developed a nice little short-range jump hook (with either hand), too. Draws tons of fouls (and was shooting nearly 60% from the FT-line at his peak; which is not good, but not godawful for a big either; getting a 60% ft-shooter to the line is still fairly efficient scoring).

Admittedly, that's where his offensive prowess ends. He has no jump-shot or range to speak of at all, limited repertoire of post-moves, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover prone.
Still, I don't mean to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. If taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell. Combined with even his limited post repertoire, this makes him a well-above average offensive player.


McHale, though, has a case for the GOAT where low-post game is concerned.
Great footwork, makes excellent use of his lower body to create space and effectively post up to receive the ball in a position to score. Has a myriad of effective moves; I especially like the quick fake followed by the up-and-under for the layup; or the fake shot low-side, fake shot high-side, then (when defend leaves the ground) he ducks back under for the easy layup. And he made these moves quickly, much quicker than you'd think he's capable of when you see him run up the court; he simply doesn't appear as though he could possibly move that fast. He has the short-range jump hooks, the fall-away jumper, was a pretty good finisher despite vastly inferior athleticism (relative to Howard); just very nice soft touch near the rim. Had range out to at least 12-14 ft. And >83% FT-shooter at his peak.
Guy was a scoring machine dropping 31.9 pts/100 possessions at 65.5% TS while playing damn near 40 mpg. Now certainly we can acknowledge that Bird's playmaking and the wealth of talent around him helped his efficiency. otoh, it also stole some primacy away from him. I could see peak McHale in other circumstances dropping 28-29 ppg (~36 per 100 poss) at maybe 61-62% TS in that time period.
And he's less turnover prone than Dwight, and a bit better passer (when he chose to do so, though he was mostly a black hole if you gave him the ball in the post......not saying that's a bad thing, fwiw, when you consider what the typical result of giving him the ball in the post was).

So offensively, I give McHale a solid edge.

Defense
McHale in ‘87 was an All-Defensive 1st Team forward, who often had to spend time guarding outside his position (on the opposing SF) to help hide Bird (though in Bird’s defense: Larry was a fantastic post defender). But that’s just one thing that helps illustrate McHale’s defensive versatility, because he was also an excellent low post defender, and he was also Boston’s primary rim protector, coming up with 2.7 blk/100 possessions.

So despite Dwight’s 3 DPOY awards (which I think marginally overstate his defensive value), I do think it’s close defensively. I probably give the small edge to Dwight, though, based him being sort of the sole anchor to his team’s defense, and the guy that they try to filter everything to.
Although in the past I’ve criticized Dwight for his lack of footwork and timing (where it relates to shot-blocking), noting for example that in ‘13 Howard was avg 3.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 4.9%; meanwhile a 36-yr-old Tim Duncan was avg 4.5 blk/100 possessions with a BLK% of 6.4%. Even though he’s (even after his back surgery) considerably more athletic than a 36-yr-old Duncan, he’s getting soundly trounced in his shot-blocking stats.
The primary reason, at least according to my observations, was that Duncan ascribed to (and executed) the fundamentals seen in shot-blockers like Russell and Dikembe, which involves keeping your arms up, moving your feet to stay close to the presumed shooter (so you’re in position to make the easier block), waiting for him to go up with the shot and then going up AFTER him to tip the ball just after it leaves his fingers…..a technique that requires attention to keeping your hands/arms up, footwork and timing; as opposed to relying on outstanding elevation.
Dwight has a habit of doing the latter: just sort of vaguely drifting in the direction of a potential shooter, then relying on his outstanding athleticism, gathering himself for a giant leap and batting at the air in region of the arcing shot (occasionally coming up with the amazing grand-standing type of block).

However, I will say something for this method: while strictly speaking it may not be as effective in actually coming up with blocks, it does allow him to CHANGE more shots (because as he’s more just playing a region, rather than a player, he can “get in on” more plays defensively). And I do see Howard change a lot of shots that he doesn’t actually get a paw on.

I’ve also previously criticized this technique of his because it potentially puts him out of position for the defensive rebound; but I think I simply need to retract this criticism, looking at Dwight defensive rebounding numbers (which are obviously hyper-elite).

So overall, I likely give Dwight the small edge defensively.

Rebounding
Here Dwight clearly has a sizable edge. Even relative to positional norms and expectations, it’s Dwight by a solid margin. I’ll point out one thing in McHale’s defense on this, however: part of what is depressing his rebounding numbers is what I’d mentioned above about him being forced to defend outside his natural position (guarding SF’s….that is: perimeter players)......this is at times putting him out of position for the defensive rebound.

Intangibles
This is sort of vague, and of lesser import. I’ll give McHale the edge here….he just seems like the better teammate, and the more professional and cerebral player.

Durability
This is the one that kinda hurts McHale. Based on all of the above, I’d give the small edge to McHale overall…...at least until faced with the reality that in his peak season, McHale’s body did break down and he played thru a serious injury (a friggin’ broken bone, iirc! Guy’s tough as nails) in the playoffs. While still good, even hobbled, he obviously wasn’t the McHale we’d seen throughout the rs.
Howard, otoh, was healthy thru both rs and playoffs at his peak. So that’s a consideration which brings the comparison roughly back to parity for me.

Honestly, I’ve gone back on forth on this comparison, and I’m still not sure who I’ll rank in front.

I did ultimately go with Howard based on health (and performance) in the playoffs, but it was really tight for me. With Howard out of the picture, I'm fairly comfortable going with McHale here.

How do you feel about Baylor's defense for the time period. Average or above average?

I put in a few tidbits regarding his apparent defensive impact upon arriving with the Lakers (it's in the spoiler). My eye-test (limited sample) suggests a more or less average/decent defender: neither special nor poor. But he did seem to have an impact defensive much more than expected (I speculated on account of the rebounding boost he provides, perhaps removing 2nd-chance opportunities for the opposing team).

And how much of a negative's is harden's?

Well, if we're to believe RAPM data, not all that much. According to the data E-Balla provided (from JE himself, supposedly):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17dNdxpgNHvOnMwnTmw65x5exfmQaA0C6T1w7KTmCiC0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

....he was -1.00 defensively. And bear in mind---this being PI---his previous years more atrocious DRAPM's will be dragging this down somewhat. So still probably a negative, just not a terribly big one.

EDIT: btw, are you going to cast a 3rd ballot?

[E-Balla]

PGs:
1. 96 Penny
2/3/4. 99 Kidd/72 Clyde/85 IT
5. 15 Westbrook

Wings:
1. 61 Elgin Baylor
2. 97 Grant Hill
3/4. 01 VC/15 Harden
5. 09 Brandon Roy

Bigs:
1/2/3. 75 Gilmore/58 Pettit/87 McHale
4. 75 Bob McAdoo
5. 70 Willis Reed

My nominations will be:
1. 96 Penny Hardaway
2. 61 Elgin Baylor
3. 99 Jason Kidd

[trex_8063]

As we're at the 36-hour mark and we have just three people who've turned out, I'm going to leave this thread open longer. RealGM forums were being weird in the last 24 hours, too; I was having trouble even opening some pages, so I'm hoping maybe it's just that other people have been having the same trouble.

So I'll leave it at least until tonight, maybe even until Friday morning depending on turnout.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[SideshowBob]

Ballot

29. Westbrook 15 +5.50 (+5.25 O/+0.25 D) (80% health brings him down a bit)

30. Mourning 00 +5.00 (+1.00 O/+4.00 D)

31. Frazier 71 +5.00 (+2.50 O/+2.50 D)

32. Thurmond 67 +5.00 (+0.00 O/+5.00 D)

Spoiler:

33. Barry 75 +5.00 (+4.50 O/+0.50 D)

34. Pippen 1995 +4.75 (+2.75 O/+2.50 D)

35. Hardaway 96 +4.50 (+5.00 O/-0.50 D)

On Westbrook: See my opinions of 09 Wade/James. Between the three, I think Russ might be the most explosive off the dribble as well as most able to seam through defenses due to his size (Wade's not far behind, James is a bit below the other two), though he's obviosly the most reckless (he lacks the smarts but is so good at doing what he does it hardly matters). ITO finishing he's awesome but behind the other two; ITO shooting, he's not as good as Wade in the midrange and not as good as Lebron from outside but he's got a decent enough balance. I think the amount of pressure he puts directly on the rim is absurd for a PG - he's pretty much the best slasher from that position period. Couple the with the vision/instincts/physical passing ability and you have a monster offensive player - a Lebron/Wade-lite.

Defensively, he's active, aggressive, explosive and gobbles up rebounds. Again, I think he lacks the smarts to be really effective with rotations and lane coverage like some of the best defensive PGs, but he's good enough to be a positive on that end.

With regards to Harden, I think they're very similar offensively, I wouldn't put Russ more than like a quarter point ahead. But as I said earlier, I think Harden's still a net negative on the other end, and Russ being a small positive puts an ample overall gap between the two IMO.

[70sFan]

1st ballot - Bob McAdoo 1975
2nd ballot - Elgin Baylor 1961
3rd ballot - Artis Gilmore 1975/1976

I missed last ballot due to busy time. I'm glad that Nash won it, big fan of his game

I've voted for Bob and Elgin for a few rounds, so I don't need to explain this choices again. About Gilmore - here is good thread about him:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1403558
I'm not sure which year should I take. Also, it's tough choice between Howard and Gilmore. Both are great defensive players and very good on offensive end. Why I picked A-Train? First of all, I'm very subjective in this comparison But I'm trying to be fair for both players. Let's compare them:

a) rebounding
While Artis was amazing rebounder (as good in ABA as in NBA), he's clearly worse than Howard. In my opinion Howard is one of the best rebounders EVER (same tier with Moses, Russell, Wilt). Solid edge for Dwight.

b) offense
They are very close in terms of offense. Both are super-efficient. Both are bad passers and TOV-prone. Dwight draws more fouls, but Gilmore is better FT shooter. Dwight huge FTr is caused by him being poor FT shooter. Gilmore still drawed tons of fouls and he was able to hit FTs. This is big factor in my opinion. Also, with such a close comparison, I'm into basing on eye-test. Gilmore looks more dominant in my opinion. In fact, I don't think any defender could stop him when he wanted to shoot. Another thing is BBIQ - neither of them are good passers, but Artis looks smarter on the court. Both averaged over 4 tpg. but Artis rarely forced shots or played selfish (in my opinion too rarely...). So overall, I'd give the edge for Artis, but small one.

c) defense
This is hard for me to evaluate. From what I've seen, Gilmore was amazing defender in his prime. Not sure if as good as Dwight, but elite for sure. Both anchored best defences in the league (1975/1976 ABA and 2009 NBA). I just don't have enough knowledge to choose here, but I don't think either one have big edge.

When we also factor things like durability, Intangibles and other things - Gilmore is better overall (for me at least).

[trex_8063]

Thru post #9 :

Elgin Baylor - 7
Penny Hardaway - 3
Bob McAdoo - 3
Russell Westbrook - 3
James Harden - 2
Walt Frazier - 2
Kevin McHale - 1
Jason Kidd - 1
Artis Gilmore - 1
Nate Thurmond - 1

As said earlier, will leave this open until tomorrow morning at least.

[Quotatious]

Ballot #1 - Artis Gilmore '75
Ballot #2 - James Harden '15
Ballot #3 - Connie Hawkins '68

Already explained my Gilmore and Harden picks earlier. My third vote came down to Baylor, Hawkins and McAdoo, and it was close, but Connie's numbers are just amazing, and his scoring efficiency was basically second to none in that era. Yes, he played in a relatively weak league, but he easily rivaled Wilt, Oscar and West as the most efficient scorer in basketball that year - honestly, I think Hawkins was the best scorer in pro basketball that year. He averaged 30 ppg on over 59% from the field, and 65% TS in the playoffs, going to the line over 12 times per game - that's historically great performance. Also had 30 PER and 31 WS/48. Weak league or not, things like that happen maybe once or twice a decade. That's utter dominance, especially coupled with the fact that he led his team to the title.

Connie's advantage over Baylor in terms of scoring efficiency is just huge. That's what made me pick Hawkins.
Hawkins over McAdoo is a really difficult decision, as well, but Connie played better in the postseason (Bob was excellent, averaged over 37 ppg on decent efficiency against the Unseld/Hayes Bullets, but Connie was all-time great).

[Dr Positivity]

Ballot 1 - Walt Frazier 1972
Ballot 2 - Scottie Pippen 1994
Ballot 3 - Bob McAdoo 1975

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 72 Frazier

Spoiler:

If you aren't at least considering Frazier at this point, my only guess is that you question how he'd perform in more recent eras. Outside of not having a 3PT shot, I don’t really see any issues holding him back. He’s arguably the best perimeter defender of his generation, could run an offense well, yet was far from ball dominant in his overall play. He also proved his ability to step up in the playoffs over multiple finals / championship runs.

I'd like to go with one of the championship years, but 72 was his best combo of RS and PS, so sticking with that for now. Reed didn't play in the finals, so the knicks just had no match for wilt, who put up 19.4 PPG and 23.2 RPG on 60% from the field. West was actually held to 19.8 PPG on 32.5% from the field in the series (24.8 PPG on 47.7% FG in RS)! Clyde was certainly doing work in that series on both ends of the court.

RS: 23.2 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 5.8 APG, 57.6% TS (+7.2% vs. league avg), .223 WS/48

PS: 24.3 PPG, 7 RPG, 6.1 APG, 58.6% TS, .227 WS/48

Matching / exceeding his already stellar reg season play is very impressive.

A quick note about frazier's defense: people tend to say "racking up steals doesn't mean you're a good defender", but that's typically referring to guys who gamble on D for the steal. Frazier rarely did that. He got his steals by playing the passing lanes, and uniquely knocking the ball out of the players' hands by tapping it from behind. His size at 6'4" allowed him to guard both positions, and he was quick enough to body up smaller guys and make it difficult for them.

I think he's more than deserving of a spot in this range.

https://youtu.be/TVaCNzvvNf0?t=1m1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYpndoQOiU -- Yeah, it's an AS game, but it's from 72 specifically, and gives a nice look at him from that year

Ballot #2 - 75 Gilmore

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/KEN/1975.html

Excellent reg season capped off by an equally impressive championship run. By 75, the ABA was a more than legitimate pro league, and gilmore did put up similar #s for 2 seasons once he got to the NBA. I like what gilmore brought to the table offensively more than dwight and mourning, and I’d say reed is right there, too, but gilmore had a special season in 75. At the very least, deserves more of a look than he's gotten up to this point.

Ballot #3 - 63 (?) Pettit

Always underrated when discussing the top 10 PFs of all time due to the era he played in. As we know, he revolutionized the position while dominating the league at the same time. Not too sure about his peak, but i'll go with 63 for now.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/STL/1963.html

Solid all around RS + PS along with well above average relative efficiency. Also showed that he wasn't just a star of the 50s by continuing to produce into the 60s. Will look closer at per 100 stats in the next thread.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #13:

Walt Frazier - 8
Elgin Baylor - 7
Artis Gilmore - 6
James Harden - 4
Bob McAdoo - 4
Penny Hardaway - 3
Russell Westbrook - 3
Scottie Pippen - 2
Kevin McHale - 1
Jason Kidd - 1
Nate Thurmond - 1
Connie Hawkins - 1
Bob Pettit - 1

I'll give it a couple more hours maybe. Surprised I wasn't the first one to break the ice on Connie Hawkins; he was a fringe top 25 peak for me going into this, but the responses I got when I made a query about him convinced me I was overrating him. And I'm surprised McHale can't get more love at this point.

[E-Balla]

Thru post #13:

Walt Frazier - 8
Elgin Baylor - 7
Artis Gilmore - 6
James Harden - 4
Bob McAdoo - 4
Penny Hardaway - 3
Russell Westbrook - 3
Scottie Pippen - 2
Kevin McHale - 1
Jason Kidd - 1
Nate Thurmond - 1
Connie Hawkins - 1
Bob Pettit - 1

I'll give it a couple more hours maybe. Surprised I wasn't the first one to break the ice on Connie Hawkins; he was a fringe top 25 peak for me going into this, but the responses I got when I made a query about him convinced me I was overrating him. And I'm surprised McHale can't get more love at this point.

I'd keep it open a little later because of the performance of the site. Outside of a short period yesterday and today the site hasn't worked for me at all.

[trex_8063]

Well, site problems or not, I feel this one has gone on long enough. Calling it for Frazier. Will have #33 up shortly (and at this point I'm not sure how deep we'll go with this thing, given participation trends)....