Jerry West or Larry Bird

[AmusingFiddle]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?




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[theforumblue]

i'm not a savant, so all i got is one played pg/sg and other sf/pf and in different eras. so not exactly apples to apples. but bird is better.

[Warspite]

Imagine if Kobe were a better shooter, rebounder, defender and passer and that is Jerry West.

[leolozon]

Imagine if Kobe were a better shooter, rebounder, defender and passer and that is Jerry West.

I was going to say that this is stupid, but then I went to look at the stats and... well maybe.

Kobe 25ppg, 4.7 asts, 5.1rbds. TS% .550, WS/48 .170
West 27ppg, 6.7asts, 5.8 rbds, TS% .550, WS/48 .213

[bwgood77]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Threads of this nature are better served on the Player Comparisons forum.

[JordansBulls]

Imagine if Kobe were a better shooter, rebounder, defender and passer and that is Jerry West.

I was going to say that this is stupid, but then I went to look at the stats and... well maybe.

Kobe 25ppg, 4.7 asts, 5.1rbds. TS% .550, WS/48 .170
West 27ppg, 6.7asts, 5.8 rbds, TS% .550, WS/48 .213

That includes Kobe's first two seasons as well.

[Jiminy Glick]

West was a better defender. Bird was a better team player. As far as who was better I would say Bird.

[Pg81]

Larry Bird with a small but distinct lead for me. I do consider Jerry West to be the second best sg after MJ though.

[Blackfyre]

Imagine if Kobe were a better shooter, rebounder, defender and passer and that is Jerry West.

I was going to say that this is stupid, but then I went to look at the stats and... well maybe.

Kobe 25ppg, 4.7 asts, 5.1rbds. TS% .550, WS/48 .170
West 27ppg, 6.7asts, 5.8 rbds, TS% .550, WS/48 .213

Look at their per 100 numbers and you can see that these numbers paint the story that is far from the truth. Pace definitely needs to be factored in when comparing players 30-40 years apart from each other.

PER 100 numbers for West:



Kobe had much higher volume, his 2P% and FT% were considerably more higher and his rebounding numbers were also better (just see their TRB%: 8.1% vs 5.1%).

Better defender relatively to their eras ? Possible, but I love to watch old games and there's zero doubt in my mind that perimeter defense in the 60's and 70's (especially in the 60's) wasn't anywhere on the level it was when Kobe played. His only SPG numbers we have are from his last season but those are also inflated due to the higher pace and high SPG/BPG numbers do not reflect how good the player really was defensively or how good the offensive players were at protecting the ball from defenders.

We have even had some good debates over how good Walt Frazier really was defensively (best perimeter defender of his era) and it definitely has raised some doubts over how good even the best perimeter defenders at that time were. The eye test alone tells us that perimeter defense over the eras has gotten much better and I don't believe there is any reasonable argument against it.

I'll give him the passing but even that you can't say with any certainty.

If you don't believe me then you can see for yourself:

Watch on YouTube

[Dr Positivity]

It's probably closer than advertised. West is elite slasher (gets to FT line 9-10 times a game), was one of the best perimeter shooters in the league in an era where he didn't get help from the 3pt line, was usually 1st team all Defense from when they started giving it out. Averaging 2.6 steals and 0.7 blocks as a 35 year old in his last season could be reflective as the type of defensive numbers he may have put up in his prime. So he could do everything. Because of the minutes and pace he is not as high volume a scorer as Kobe is but he is a lot more efficient. West compared to his era in efficiency is more like a .63 TS%+ type of player now. He led the league twice in TS%. I see his volume/efficiency combination as being more like a Curry

[eminence]

Watch on YouTube

Does anybody remember off the top of their head when they changed the foul rules to only be FTs on shooting fouls for the first however many fouls? Always strange watching the real old games and seeing guys go to the line on non-shooting fouls at the beginning of games.

[Johnlac1]

One interesting thing about West is that he claimed in one of his autobios that he was actually 6'4 rather than the 6'3 or even 6'2 he always listed as. That plus his great length, speed and quickness, leaping ability (he could touch the top of the square on the backboard from a two foot leap under the basket) made up for his slender physique went he first entered the NBA.
As to who would I take, that's a tough one. But maybe Bird. West said it took him eight or ten years before he fully understood how to play the pro game. Bird understood the pro game almost immediately.
West's athletic gifts were better respective of his position than Bird's. But Bird was a better athlete than some people believe. Watching some of his college games recently I'm struck by how quick and easily he maneuvered around the court to take control.He could have been an outstanding pro after his soph year in college.
Bird was a more skilled player than West, but West made up for his limitations with better athleticism. Both had killer desires to win.

[penbeast0]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?




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Timid seems a really odd word for a guy who had an Allen Iverson like rep for toughness going to the basket (and missing time with injuries) among contemporaries. Better known for his multiple broken noses than for being "timid."

[trex_8063]

One interesting thing about West is that he claimed in one of his autobios that he was actually 6'4 rather than the 6'3 or even 6'2 he always listed as.

The origin of that listing is apparently from college at West Virginia, where [as an 18-year-old freshman] he was measured at 6'2" [without shoes, iirc], and so that height listing stuck throughout his career.

But yeah, here is next to DWade (who's listed at 6'4"):


And here a couple next to Kobe (listed 6'6"):




So it's pretty clear he'd be listed at least 6'4" today. Add to that he had sort of weird high-set shoulders (kinda like Kevin McHale) and pretty long reach; imo his effective length is more like a guy who's listed at 6'5" (or so) today.

[AmusingFiddle]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Threads of this nature are better served on the Player Comparisons forum.

Will do.


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[Doctor MJ]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?




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As you'll see in my sig below, I think very highly of both these guys.

I think that if they all played today, Jerry West might be the best of the players from the '60s. His skill set basically fits in with what we want from a guard today both on offense and on defense.

Where I think Bird has the edge over West though is in his off-ball genius. Bird's just unparalleled in reading the floor without the ball and figuring out what needs to happen next. Combine that with his amazing motor in his prime, his 3-point potential, and the simple fact that the dude is a big dude, I'd still take Bird over West.

[penbeast0]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

As you'll see in my sig below, I think very highly of both these guys.

I think that if they all played today, Jerry West might be the best of the players from the '60s. His skill set basically fits in with what we want from a guard today both on offense and on defense.

Where I think Bird has the edge over West though is in his off-ball genius. Bird's just unparalleled in reading the floor without the ball and figuring out what needs to happen next. Combine that with his amazing motor in his prime, his 3-point potential, and the simple fact that the dude is a big dude, I'd still take Bird over West.

I would too because in today's systems, Bird is a stretch 4, which is a hard to find and vital link. As such, his offensive genius is maximized and his defensive limitations minimized. West would be superb in today's game as well but without knowing how his terrific shooting range would stretch to 3 point shooting, he's a more risky pick. If his range (probably best in league when playing) and efficiency (he and Oscar were the two greatest non-centers by a large percentage) translate relative to era, you end up with Harden's offense and Tony Allen's defense, arguably the greatest guard and potentially the greatest player in history. But, it's purely speculative. We KNOW how great Bird's 3 point shooting was and in a league like today's, we can much more easily predict the degree to which it would be more effectively utilized. So, I'd go with Bird but both would most likely be top 5 players in the league.

[Johnlac1]

I grew up in the Larry Bird era and found him to be an absolute beast and merciless assassin on the court. The guy was a warrior and played thru many injuries while leading his team to championships.

Jerry West on the other had I have not watch play. The clips that I have seen of him, he seems very fluid almost timid. Comparatively, His numbers from what I understand are very impressive. Obviously he is the logo and one of the greatest ever for a reason.

Can any of you basketball savants shed some light on how you would compare the two and whom would you consider a better ball player?




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

As you'll see in my sig below, I think very highly of both these guys.

I think that if they all played today, Jerry West might be the best of the players from the '60s. His skill set basically fits in with what we want from a guard today both on offense and on defense.

Where I think Bird has the edge over West though is in his off-ball genius. Bird's just unparalleled in reading the floor without the ball and figuring out what needs to happen next. Combine that with his amazing motor in his prime, his 3-point potential, and the simple fact that the dude is a big dude, I'd still take Bird over West.

I would too because in today's systems, Bird is a stretch 4, which is a hard to find and vital link. As such, his offensive genius is maximized and his defensive limitations minimized. West would be superb in today's game as well but without knowing how his terrific shooting range would stretch to 3 point shooting, he's a more risky pick. If his range (probably best in league when playing) and efficiency (he and Oscar were the two greatest non-centers by a large percentage) translate relative to era, you end up with Harden's offense and Tony Allen's defense, arguably the greatest guard and potentially the greatest player in history. But, it's purely speculative. We KNOW how great Bird's 3 point shooting was and in a league like today's, we can much more easily predict the degree to which it would be more effectively utilized. So, I'd go with Bird but both would most likely be top 5 players in the league.

A lot of footage people see of West's jump shot shows him shooting his famous quick release jumper which usually came off fairly flat. Since he usually shot off the dribble and rarely had catch and shoot situations, people mostly associate him with that shot. But he said when did get the occasional catch and shoot, he shot it differently from his off the dribble jump shot putting more arch on it. He had very good form, and I don't think he would have had much of a problem adapting to the three pt. shot.

[penbeast0]

I don't either but there's a huge difference between adjusting to the era and becoming a 35% 3 point shooter on high volumes and becoming a 40% 3 point shooter on high volumes (or shooting it less like Wade).

[feyki]

West was a better shooter first of all . Because it's their strongest aspect about the game . Bird was probably better defender cause he could defend on the perimeter(80-86) and also not often but he could defend in the post too . West was more like Kobe , had monster D on the perimeter but not as good as Kobe on the help defence .

Bird by far better rebounder . Probably better passer too . West wasn't like a real PG until in the Gail/West/Wilt big3 time . Cause they wanted running the offence from him . And he did it , btw .

West wasn't like Jordan-culture players type high volume scoring . But of course , he was a great scorer . Bird was too . If i have to choose one here , i say West .

As a player and more impactful player , Bird was better .