RS 23/24 - Mavs vs Heat (Thursd. 730PMEST)

[daoneandonly]

Kidd is trash

Neither thj or green deserve over 20 min a game

Lively should always start and close 9 times out of 10

Willing to give pj more time, but definitely wasn't worth a top 2 protected pick

[Archx]

I forgot what winning feels like.

Exum and big wings clamped down the defense and Luka finally waking up in the 2nd half. But i don't trust Kidd to run same stuff again so i'm already scared what BS changes he'll make.

[Michaellam1987]

Kidd is trash

Neither thj or green deserve over 20 min a game

Lively should always start and close 9 times out of 10

Willing to give pj more time, but definitely wasn't worth a top 2 protected pick

Lively has the better physical tools, and more mobile as centre. Gafford is more experienced and is a better rebounder and better offensive player for now.

[joesha1698]

Hey archx listen to this:

Watch on YouTube

Charles Barkley , Kenny Smith, (and Shaq to a great degree) basically said the same thing Ive been saying --- about Luka Ball and why ball movement is just so important for the overall health of this team. Just so people in here dont think I'm just being unfair to Luka. I just know in order for this team to meet their potential he has to be willing to give up the ball early and often and allow others guy to make decision and allow the ball to move.

[joesha1698]

Some observations about Luka Ball.
1. Luka would having more energy if he allowed others to handle the ball more and set him up for shots/his teammates.
2. Luka extra energy would allow him to play more defense.
3. When we're playing Luka Ball were a 1on1 team, lob team, and 3 point shooting team but thats pretty much it.
4. When we're not playing Luka Ball there is way more ball movement, cutting, getting to the rim, different guys setting up each other and just more guys involve in the game.

5. When everyone is involved on offense - it tires out the other team's defense - because they have to guard all 5 guys. Luka Ball is very predictable to most teams (because its one guy who has the ball most of the game) but when we have multiple initiators - its hard for teams to game plan us as we become less predictable.

6. Lastly, dont get me wrong, we can always play Luka Heavy Pick and Roll late in games when we need (that step back 3, lob, or that pass off the double will always be there, but we dont need to run that same play all game long). Most of the game we need multiple initiators and we need multiple guys touching the ball. We dont want to turn guys who are versatile scorers into corner 3 point shooters only because we're limiting their ability and were living and dying by the 3.

7.Do not underestimate how everyone getting touching on offense translate into improved defense. When everyone is eating and not reduce to lob players, 1on1 basketball, and 3 point shooters - people tend to play better defense. So, when Kidd said our offense kinda determines our defense - i think he meant more like this. When everyone is playing together and trusting each other - that energy translates over to both sides of the ball.

Think about it, all the teams who win - they dont play anything like the Mavs. Their offense is initiated by multiple people at the high post, pick and roll, etc. It's doesn't just revolve around one guy. Watch the Celtics, Nuggets, Miami, etc.

[joesha1698]

Last thing I'll say, now if you just want to play Luka Ball - (next year) get rid of all the overpaid 11-17 million guys - get you a allstar level PF or SF(if u keep Washington) and get some legit 3 and D guys - with Kyrie and your Big 2 at C and call it a day.

[Michaellam1987]

Many works and better communication on the defensive rotation is needed.

1) For driving, never has the strong side to go for the double team or help defense unless clear communication on the rotation is done, as it is the easiest and short passing lane for the ball handler to pass back the ball for wide open shot. Great defensive team will always do the rotation, and have the weak side, with longest pass lane being left open. Not everyone is Chris Paul, Jokic, Luka etc, and can find that open man.

2) Protect Luka, put him on the weak side, look after the oppenent standing in the corner is fine, but Luka to be always ready to cover to the 3 ball line from the corner upto to 45 degree 3 point line, and don’t be attacked close out too easily. This is more important than standing close to the paint, and goes for rebounding. You have Lively/Gafford do the rebounding work, save your energy on defense. Protect Kyrie, when he is posted up by bigger player, stimulate and advise the team what to do in advance, e.g. for elite PF/C, send double team immediately when opponent put the ball on the floor, leave him no chance to observe the defensive rotation; for elite bigger wing with right hand being the strong hand, deny the ball, have the left land drive lane being semi open, with C protecting the paint.

3) For Lively/Gafford, don’t over commit and under commit, need to prepare better on the characteristic of the opponent, more of 3 point threat or lob threat or what. For opponent driving into the paint, need to see who is that guy, can they shoot mid-range (e.g. Derozan/Booker/Durant/SGA) or like to drive hard to the rim (e.g. Westbook/Harden etc.). You have great length to protect the paint as long as you are in the paint area. Don’t commit immediately, see the situation, check your opponent, do the communication before doing anything, dont always jump on bump fake, if you cant avoid foul, foul hard to avoid and 1. THJ/Luka/Green/PJ/Maxi/Kyrie/Exum, being ready to do rotation and defense upto 3 point line. Save Lively/Gafford in the paint area for rim protection and defensive rebounding.

4) Protect slow PF/C, when after pick and roll, and they need to defense the elite wing/guard, decide the game plan in advance, send hard double team, with proper rotation/communication being done first, or immediate trap on pick and roll for smaller guard, and defer him from passing out the ball very easily.

With better defense being on board, together with our improved rebounding and paint defense with more rim protection. Our offense problem can be minimised at the same time.

[Mavrelous]

The Heat have lost only to DEN, BOS and LAC since Feb 1st, so beating them isn't forgone conclusion.
It's extremely worrying that a HoF and NBA coach/asst coach for 10 years will go to lineups at critical juncture, that clearly won't work (Gafford/DJJ pairing for example).
It's worrying he needs the spaghetti method in game 63 of the season, but it is what it is.
The game was won when Luka and Kyrie broke their slump, Kyrie isn't shooting well, with THJ shooting like this, they are Mavs best shooters and if they aren't hitting, it gets ugly, if Kidd wants to experiment, Hardy should be tried, since the team clearly lacks shooting.
PJW does everything well except shoot, I really hope he finds his shot, he could be huge.

[Mavrelous]

MAxi finished with +16 in 22 minutes, most of which at the 4 next to Lively, a position I hated seeing him in, so maybe Kidd got something out of this game.
Analytics in previous seasons hated Maxi at the 5 in RS, but loved him at the 5 in the playoffs, interesting what will come out of it.

[Apz]

Swear ive seen joshua here before. The way the posts are, the topics, everything. So what name was it under?

[41Dirk41]

Take the W... But we played very bad again.

Exum 20/25 from the bench and closing games is the best for us like i said, nothing more because his healthy. It's ok.

THJ and Green bad again. Kidd has to try someone else.

[41Dirk41]

MAxi finished with +16 in 22 minutes, most of which at the 4 next to Lively, a position I hated seeing him in, so maybe Kidd got something out of this game.
Analytics in previous seasons hated Maxi at the 5 in RS, but loved him at the 5 in the playoffs, interesting what will come out of it.

Mav, Maxi has not ever been a good 5.
Luka out played most of the center in the PO so he looked decent. But if has not a great 3points night he is bad.

At the 4 he can defend some big wing so it's decent.

We need a C on the court 48minutes a game. Not Maxi Kleber.

[Mavrelous]

MAxi finished with +16 in 22 minutes, most of which at the 4 next to Lively, a position I hated seeing him in, so maybe Kidd got something out of this game.
Analytics in previous seasons hated Maxi at the 5 in RS, but loved him at the 5 in the playoffs, interesting what will come out of it.

Mav, Maxi has not ever been a good 5.
Luka out played most of the center in the PO so he looked decent. But if has not a great 3points night he is bad.

At the 4 he can defend some big wing so it's decent.

We need a C on the court 48minutes a game. Not Maxi Kleber.

Check games 2+3 against the Jazz w/o Luka, his whole 2022 PO run he was very good at C.
He shouldn't be a quasi-starter like he was, Mavs got lucky in 22, but he's a very good stretch small ball 5 for the PO.
The thing is, here he played mainly the 4.

[41Dirk41]

MAxi finished with +16 in 22 minutes, most of which at the 4 next to Lively, a position I hated seeing him in, so maybe Kidd got something out of this game.
Analytics in previous seasons hated Maxi at the 5 in RS, but loved him at the 5 in the playoffs, interesting what will come out of it.

Mav, Maxi has not ever been a good 5.
Luka out played most of the center in the PO so he looked decent. But if has not a great 3points night he is bad.

At the 4 he can defend some big wing so it's decent.

We need a C on the court 48minutes a game. Not Maxi Kleber.

Check games 2+3 against the Jazz w/o Luka, his whole 2022 PO run he was very good at C.
He shouldn't be a quasi-starter like he was, Mavs got lucky in 22, but he's a very good stretch small ball 5 for the PO.
The thing is, here he played mainly the 4.

Yes the 2/3 game where he shot like 20/25 from 3s and against a team who collapsed that off season.

In the rest of his career he was a mediocre C.

Here he played mainly 4 because he is a PF, it doesn't mean that he can play occasional minutes at the C in particolar situation or in the clutch sometimes.

[arkuo]

Swear ive seen joshua here before. The way the posts are, the topics, everything. So what name was it under?

It depends. If he starts throwing wild trades, then it's Darren.

[arkuo]

Last thing I'll say, now if you just want to play Luka Ball - (next year) get rid of all the overpaid 11-17 million guys - get you a allstar level PF or SF(if u keep Washington) and get some legit 3 and D guys - with Kyrie and your Big 2 at C and call it a day.

In a perfect world, yes. You surround Luka with like 4 Mikal Bridges and we're good. But it's easier said than done. Those teams won't let those go for just Josh Green and most would command 2 FRPs on top.

[Mavrelous]

Many works and better communication on the defensive rotation is needed.

2) Protect Luka, put him on the weak side, look after the oppenent standing in the corner is fine, but Luka to be always ready to cover to the 3 ball line from the corner upto to 45 degree 3 point line, and don’t be attacked close out too easily. This is more important than standing close to the paint, and goes for rebounding. You have Lively/Gafford do the rebounding work, save your energy on defense. Protect Kyrie, when he is posted up by bigger player, stimulate and advise the team what to do in advance, e.g. for elite PF/C, send double team immediately when opponent put the ball on the floor, leave him no chance to observe the defensive rotation; for elite bigger wing with right hand being the strong hand, deny the ball, have the left land drive lane being semi open, with C protecting the paint.

Luka is tasked with rebounding, and is constantly thinking of helping, it's not working, the gameplan against him and THJ has been backdoor cuts, maybe tell them to face guard? I don't know, but right now, backdoor cuts are killing the team.

[Bob8]

Some observations about Luka Ball.
1. Luka would having more energy if he allowed others to handle the ball more and set him up for shots/his teammates.
2. Luka extra energy would allow him to play more defense.
3. When we're playing Luka Ball were a 1on1 team, lob team, and 3 point shooting team but thats pretty much it.
4. When we're not playing Luka Ball there is way more ball movement, cutting, getting to the rim, different guys setting up each other and just more guys involve in the game.

5. When everyone is involved on offense - it tires out the other team's defense - because they have to guard all 5 guys. Luka Ball is very predictable to most teams (because its one guy who has the ball most of the game) but when we have multiple initiators - its hard for teams to game plan us as we become less predictable.

6. Lastly, dont get me wrong, we can always play Luka Heavy Pick and Roll late in games when we need (that step back 3, lob, or that pass off the double will always be there, but we dont need to run that same play all game long). Most of the game we need multiple initiators and we need multiple guys touching the ball. We dont want to turn guys who are versatile scorers into corner 3 point shooters only because we're limiting their ability and were living and dying by the 3.

7.Do not underestimate how everyone getting touching on offense translate into improved defense. When everyone is eating and not reduce to lob players, 1on1 basketball, and 3 point shooters - people tend to play better defense. So, when Kidd said our offense kinda determines our defense - i think he meant more like this. When everyone is playing together and trusting each other - that energy translates over to both sides of the ball.

Think about it, all the teams who win - they dont play anything like the Mavs. Their offense is initiated by multiple people at the high post, pick and roll, etc. It's doesn't just revolve around one guy. Watch the Celtics, Nuggets, Miami, etc.

To put things in right perspective. In last 7 games, in which Mavs have won only 2, Luka's net rating on/off is + 36. Kyrie for example is - 23.5. Even in D, Mavs were 8.5 points worse when Luka was off the court. It should be obvious that Luka is not the problem.

Kyrie has played extremely bad without Luka in that period and Josh's defensive numbers are unbelievable bad. I would say that run&gun basketball those 2 are trying to play without Luka doesn't work.

Solution could be, let Exum run second unit, Kyrie being just as Sg, and play Josh as little as possible, unfortunately he doesn't understand basketball at all, he should have stayed playing Australian football. To illustrate how bad Josh is this season, we can focus only on his D,which should be his forte. He has far the worst defensive rtg in the team, Mavs being 6.1 better with him off the court. Which is far the worst too. Even well known defensive "protégée" THJ is not that bad.

Stop losing time with the offensive side, Mavs have 7th offense in the league, 3rd in the West, and only 22nd D. Just averaged D would have been enough to be easily around 4th place.

Btw. In last 7 games Mavs offensive rating with Luka off the court was 93.

[Michaellam1987]

Mav, Maxi has not ever been a good 5.
Luka out played most of the center in the PO so he looked decent. But if has not a great 3points night he is bad.

At the 4 he can defend some big wing so it's decent.

We need a C on the court 48minutes a game. Not Maxi Kleber.

Check games 2+3 against the Jazz w/o Luka, his whole 2022 PO run he was very good at C.
He shouldn't be a quasi-starter like he was, Mavs got lucky in 22, but he's a very good stretch small ball 5 for the PO.
The thing is, here he played mainly the 4.

Yes the 2/3 game where he shot like 20/25 from 3s and against a team who collapsed that off season.

In the rest of his career he was a mediocre C.

Here he played mainly 4 because he is a PF, it doesn't mean that he can play occasional minutes at the C in particolar situation or in the clutch sometimes.

Agree. Maxi has lost his shooting touch and confidence after his injury. He is now a 30% 3PT shooter during wide open situation. He is the perfect opponent to have to assign to my star player to take care of, so as to save the most energy on the offensive end.

[ozwizard8]

Win is a win. Kudos again to Luka. Kidd’s job security improved 1% until the next loss.

The way Mavs let 12 pt lead in early 4th quarter is troublesome.

Exum was really good. In general this is what Luka needs. A player that knows the game and who can defend. Exum’s defense/rebounding is good. He know where to be on many plays it gives him advantage. On offense making clutch shots are also important.

Brunson-Dinwiddie was contributing similarly. Helping to set the tempo, sometimes get Luka’s load off. Luka has too much responsibility and load. He puts insane amount of energy on offense. Then the opposing team tries to tire him out more on defense. So if refs miss calls, teammates miss rotations, he got frustrated.

Brunson was so good at this. Sometimes him and Dinwiddie would understand that refs missed a call and Luka is frusturated. They were dribbling inside and hunt a call. Refs would be more willing to call fouls. So lets say Mavs get 2FTs, now Luka rests, and mentally he cools off too. Even its a foul with side out, its a breather, team regroups.

Sometimes we just need this next to Luka. Kyrie is amazing finisher, an acrobat but he doesnt know how to control the tempo, stabilize the momentum. In late 4th quarter, he made important mistakes and did not get much responsibility either. THJ is not helping Luka much. I mean shooting 3s whenever he gets the ball is not what Mavs need when Luka is frustrated. Exum Brunson are much more of PG in that regard. But then again its hard to expect a min. contract player to play consistently at this level. Hope he can sustain this!


It was nice to have J.Kidd next to Dirk. The team sometimes need easy buckets, feed the mismatch etc. In some plays star players should not get the ball. Understanding this is very important.