RS Only: David Robinson vs Nikola Jokic

[Matt15]

Regular season only, who is the better player?

[Ol Roy]

Interesting question. Probably depends on the era. As good as he was in his time, I think Robinson actually scales up if he played today. When watching him play, he was frequently doubled (because his teammates weren't great shot makers) or fouled (the numbers back this up: he has the same foul rate as Shaq, and they stand above everyone else).

Today, I think the foul calls go even higher. Those doubles would be punished now, which means they would occur less often. In general, the increased space and more freedom of movement would allow him to attack the basket more like Giannis. He loved the face-up dribble drive. He was also an excellent passer from the top of the court, and I suspect that skill would be properly utilized today. Finally, he'd probably adapt his jump shot enough to be a credible spot-up three-point shooter, at least from the corner, when necessary.

Defensively, he might not have the absolute impact he had back then. But he should still be the best defender in the league. Gobert will probably win DPOY again and he simply isn't as talented or mobile as Robinson.

Jokic in the 90s is harder for me to project. I do think his defense would be more of a concern. He would likely take less threes, but we don't have to put that restriction on him. If Bird could dominate the 80s, there is no reason Jokic couldn't do his thing in the 90s.

[tsherkin]

Jokic is a lot better than Robinson on offense. Robinson, obviously better on defense. RS only, this is a different discussion than overall, of course.

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others, didn't have amazing range and didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense. You could game for him a lot more than you can for Jokic, particularly since Joker can kill you even if he's having a rare off shooting night (and minding that an off night for him is similar to a good night for a lot of other guys).

I lean Jokic, but it would be interesting to see how Robinson's defense translated today. He had phenomenal mobility and timing, so he'd likely remain an intensely disruptive help defender, and among the two or three best defenders in the league without much thought put to it.

[Cavsfansince84]

I also lean Jokic based on the carry job he did two seasons ago. That was just a ridiculous showing of what he can do even with a terrible roster around him. Not that its by much over David since he's close to a goat level rs player. Can't really go wrong here with either.

[kcktiny]

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others, didn't have amazing range and didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense. You could game for him a lot more than you can for Jokic

Wow, what an astute assessment for David Robinson.

Just out of curiosity, how did he happen to manage to be named all-NBA each of his first 7 seasons in the league, 4 times all-NBA 1st team, play on a team that averaged 55 wins a season (5 seasons with 55+ wins), have the 2nd best W-L record in the league all that time, and be the leader on a team that was 3rd best defensively over that time?

Unreal.

If you want to compare the two read the "Where would peak DRob rank today?" thread, especially for those who think Jokic was better on offense.

[rk2023]

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others, didn't have amazing range and didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense. You could game for him a lot more than you can for Jokic

Wow, what an astute assessment for David Robinson.

Just out of curiosity, how did he happen to manage to be named all-NBA each of his first 7 seasons in the league, 4 times all-NBA 1st team, play on a team that averaged 55 wins a season (5 seasons with 55+ wins), have the 2nd best W-L record in the league all that time, and be the leader on a team that was 3rd best defensively over that time?

Unreal.

If you want to compare the two read the "Where would peak DRob rank today?" thread, especially for those who think Jokic was better on offense.

You didn’t disprove or debunk a single thing Tsherkin said

[kcktiny]

You didn’t disprove or debunk a single thing Tsherkin said

Again, an astute observation.

D-Rob... didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense.

Like this is some sort of factual assessment of a player that was likely the best C in the league over a 7 year period (1989-90 to 1995-96)?

Or like this:

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others

How much more wrong could this statement be? From 1989-90 to 1995-96, Robinson threw for more assists (1718) than any other C in the league. My lord.

Or this:

Jokic is a lot better than Robinson on offense.

Read the "Where would peak DRob rank today?" thread.

[capfan33]

Like this is some sort of factual assessment of a player that was likely the best C in the league over a 7 year period (1989-90 to 1995-96)?

Is Hakeem being classified as a PF now or did I miss something.

[kcktiny]

Is Hakeem being classified as a PF now or did I miss something.

1989-90 to 1995-96:

Robinson, 557 g, 38 min/g, 25.6 pts/g, 11.8 reb/g, 3.1 ast/g, 1.7 st/g, 3.6 bs/g,
all-NBA 1st team 4 times, 2nd team once, 3rd team twice, all-defensive 1st team 4 times

Olajuwon, 514 g, 39 min/g, 25.2 pts/g, 12.3 reb/g, 3.1 ast/g, 1.8 st/g, 3.9 bs/g,
all-NBA 1st team 2 times, 2nd team twice, 3rd team twice, all-defensive 1st team 3 times

[tsherkin]

You didn’t disprove or debunk a single thing Tsherkin said

He also specifically goes out of his way not to actually quote me so I don't get notification when he does stuff like this.

Just out of curiosity, how did he happen to manage to be named all-NBA each of his first 7 seasons in the league, 4 times all-NBA 1st team, play on a team that averaged 55 wins a season (5 seasons with 55+ wins), have the 2nd best W-L record in the league all that time, and be the leader on a team that was 3rd best defensively over that time?

Because he was really good. What kind of question was that? Of course Robinson was good, he's a legit top-20 player all-time as a basement. That doesn't mean he didn't have any weaknesses, and those weaknesses were more visible in the playoffs than in the RS. During the regular season, his statistical production was phenomenal, and of course his defense remained as such regardless.

But to ignore what his actual weaknesses were and why he dropped off as he did in the playoffs would be foolish. Yes, he's not going to face a Hakeem-level threat on the other end of the court every night. And yeah, he was very much capable of and focused on exploiting size mismatches, which he did well. He did not have excellent range and he wasn't anywhere near Jokic as a playmaker. Those are just realities of Robinson's game.

In this specific comparison, then, defense becomes the main thing Robinson has going for him as an argument for why he would be ahead.

And your pointless vitriol aside, if you actually processed my whole post, you would see the nod toward that angle of debate in the last portion of my original post. But you weren't interested in that, only making a fuss over something I wrote. As usual.

[kcktiny]

Because he was really good. What kind of question was that?

Because after what you wrote I had to be sure you actually knew who David Robinson was.

Did you or did you not write:

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others

Fact 1: his first 7 seasons in the league (1989-90 to 1995-96) he threw for more assists in a single season (381) than did any other C in the league during that time.

Fact 2: those 7 seasons he threw for the most assists (1718) among all Cs in the league. As a matter of fact only 5 Cs those 7 seasons even threw for 1000+ assists.

So why would you make such a ludicrous statement? For that time he was clearly one of the best passing Cs in the league.

And did you or did you not write:

and didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense.

In those first 7 seasons of his career he was all-NBA every season and all-NBA 1st team 4/7 times. In the eyes of the voters that makes him the best or one of the very best Cs in the league during that time.

And he got those awards going up against the likes Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutombo, Shaq, Seikaly, Parish, Kemp, Daugherty, Divac, Smits, Polynice, Benjamin, Lang, Duckworth, Mourning, you name it. All 7 footers or close and the big names as physical as a C was at that time.

So what was the point of your inane statement?

You could game for him a lot more than you can for Jokic

Is that a fact. Care to explain how? Robinson those 7 seasons rarely missed a game (maybe 2 a season on average), played 38 min/g, and had stats that were outstanding (only Olajuwon was similar). He played more minutes than all but one player, and scored more points than all but one player (K.Malone both instances).

Jokic the past 7 seasons played all of 33 min/g missing some 8 games a season. Well if he plays you'd have to game for him, but at least on defense you know he's gonna sit for 1/3 of every game.

That doesn't mean he didn't have any weaknesses

Tell you what. Why don't you list his weaknesses, and then list the weaknesses of Jokic so we can compare the two. But you won't because Jokic has far more weaknesses.

and those weaknesses were more visible in the playoffs

Is or is not the title of this thread "RS Only: David Robinson vs Nikola Jokic"?

But to ignore what his actual weaknesses

Like how you ignore the weaknesses of Jokic? Can he draw a foul? Can he get his man in foul trouble? Does he get his team to the FT bonus often? Can he grab an offensive rebound? Last I checked he has yet to grab even 230 offensive rebounds in a single season. DRob has 3 seasons of 300+ off rebs, 7 seasons of 230+ off rebs. And forget defense.

Jokic for a C is a worse than average to poor shot defender. DRob a yearly DPOY candidate.

Those are just realities of Robinson's game.

So, after you list the weaknesses of both, try listing the strengths of both. But you won't, because DRob has more strengths and less weaknesses than Jokic.

That's the reality.

And your pointless vitriol aside

That word astute really got you, huh?

only making a fuss over something I wrote

So when you are wrong and that's pointed out that's "making a fuss"? Refuting what is incorrect on this board is now is a fuss?

[penbeast0]

D-Rob wasn't creating a ton for others, didn't have amazing range and didn't fare well against comparable size or physical defense. You could game for him a lot more than you can for Jokic

Wow, what an astute assessment for David Robinson.

Just out of curiosity, how did he happen to manage to be named all-NBA each of his first 7 seasons in the league, 4 times all-NBA 1st team, play on a team that averaged 55 wins a season (5 seasons with 55+ wins), have the 2nd best W-L record in the league all that time, and be the leader on a team that was 3rd best defensively over that time?

Unreal.

If you want to compare the two read the "Where would peak DRob rank today?" thread, especially for those who think Jokic was better on offense.

IF you are going to direct people to another thread, please link it.

[penbeast0]

Like this is some sort of factual assessment of a player that was likely the best C in the league over a 7 year period (1989-90 to 1995-96)?

Is Hakeem being classified as a PF now or did I miss something.

In terms of RS which is what the OP is asking about, Robinson was probably better than Hakeem during this period. PS is a different story of course as Hakeem's case for top 10 all time is strongly based on his ability to rise in the playoffs.

[tsherkin]

In those first 7 seasons of his career he was all-NBA every season and all-NBA 1st team 4/7 times. In the eyes of the voters that makes him the best or one of the very best Cs in the league during that time.

And he got those awards going up against the likes Olajuwon, Ewing, Mutombo, Shaq, Seikaly, Parish, Kemp, Daugherty, Divac, Smits, Polynice, Benjamin, Lang, Duckworth, Mourning, you name it. All 7 footers or close and the big names as physical as a C was at that time.

And? You think he was going head to head with all those guys on a nightly basis? Shaq wasn't in the same conference as him until after his prime. Neither were kemp, Polynice, Duckworth... even Mutombo for a chunk of it. Divac is a meaningless inclusion.

And again, watching Robinson, did you not see HOW he set up his game?

Is that a fact. Care to explain how? Robinson those 7 seasons rarely missed a game (maybe 2 a season on average), played 38 min/g, and had stats that were outstanding (only Olajuwon was similar). He played more minutes than all but one player, and scored more points than all but one player (K.Malone both instances).

Another non-sequitur. Yawn.

Tell you what. Why don't you list his weaknesses, and then list the weaknesses of Jokic so we can compare the two. But you won't because Jokic has far more weaknesses.

He really doesn't, though, that's the problem. He isn't elite in several areas, including defense which happens to be a strength of Robinson's, but that isn't actually a weakness.

Is or is not the title of this thread "RS Only: David Robinson vs Nikola Jokic"?

It is. Mentioning the PS was more about identifying Robinson's weaknesses and how he could be attacked defensively, which would be more common in today's league.

That word astute really got you, huh?

Your general tone is obvious, now as it always is when you respond to me. Anyway, you have a nice day. I'm done wasting my time in this thread.

[kcktiny]

And? You think he was going head to head with all those guys on a nightly basis?

Yes. What are you missing? He was going up against the same Cs as Olajuwon.

Why do you think he was named all-NBA each season from 1989-90 to 1995-96? Because he was going up against the likes of Les Jepsen, Christian Welp, Todd Mundt, and Robert Werdann on a nightly basis?

Shaq wasn't in the same conference as him until after his prime. Neither were kemp, Polynice, Duckworth... even Mutombo for a chunk of it.

I listed the 15 Cs that played the most minutes other than DRob from 1989-90 to 1995-96.

Who do you think both DRob and Olajuwon were playing against on a nightly basis?

Divac is a meaningless inclusion.

Boy you do enjoy being wrong.

Those 7 seasons Divac was the starting C for the Lakers (actually played by far the most minutes on the Lakers during that stretch), and who played in the same conference as the Spurs all that time. Who do you think played C for them when they played the Spurs?

And again, watching Robinson, did you not see HOW he set up his game?

And again, can you not be so obtuse?

Another non-sequitur. Yawn.

Typical Jokic-fanboy response. If one mentions Jokic's weaknesses, do not respond.

He really doesn't, though, that's the problem. He isn't elite in several areas, including defense which happens to be a strength of Robinson's, but that isn't actually a weakness.

Defense is not a weakness for Jokic? Again, you do enjoy being wrong don't you.

Go to stats.nba.com defensive dashboard and look at the defensive FGM/FGA camera data. For 2tpers allowed he's at 54.8%. The best C (600+ FGAs faced) is at 45.8% (Gobert). The only starting Cs worse than Jokic are Nick Richards, Valanciunas, and Sengun. That puts Jokic among the worst shot defending starting Cs in the league.

And if you look at previous seasons he's not much better.

Go and try to explain that away.

Mentioning the PS was more about identifying Robinson's weaknesses and how he could be attacked defensively, which would be more common in today's league.

In Robinson's prime he was likely the dominant defender there was, along with Olajuwon. But because you say so he would be worse now?

That's utter nonsense. Rudy Gobert was DPOY 3 of the last 6 seasons and DRob was quicker, a much better shot blocker, and got far more steals than Gobert.

Why don't you explain to us how Rudy Gobert managed to win 3 DPOY awards in this era but how DRob couldn't?

Your general tone is obvious, now as it always is when you respond to me.

Not you in particular, just those who make statements blatantly wrong that are easily refutable, like you do.

I'm done wasting my time in this thread.

Don't make easily refutable statements, such that you have to exit stage right.

[eminence]

I’ve got Robinson narrowly. Both at the very tops of their leagues in their prime.

[capfan33]

Like this is some sort of factual assessment of a player that was likely the best C in the league over a 7 year period (1989-90 to 1995-96)?

Is Hakeem being classified as a PF now or did I miss something.

In terms of RS which is what the OP is asking about, Robinson was probably better than Hakeem during this period. PS is a different story of course as Hakeem's case for top 10 all time is strongly based on his ability to rise in the playoffs.

Touche, lost sight of that.

[rk2023]

Tbch, Robinson looks better in the RS vs the PS for many reasons most posters on here (even the ones who ignore such a trend because of RAPM / WOWYR) are aware of - but he’s statistically one of the guys with the most tail-off against good - great RS comp too (indicative of translation). I’d take Big Honey given that caveat

[Rishkar]

I'm a big Jokic fan, but this is David Robinson for me. He might be the regular season GOAT

[dygaction]

Their regular season peaks are comparable, but Jokic has a four-year stretch vs. DRob's one.