Varsho/Moreno Discussion Thread

[johanliebert]

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?s=46

For the nerds here this is your father.

[bluerap23]

Hero for a day

[Boogie!]

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This is what real power looks like

Arizona frantically calling us to see if we want to trade back.

Gurriel jr off to a good start again

[Randle McMurphy]

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I can't imagine anybody still actually pining for Lourdes over the best defensive player in the game.

[bluerap23]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

[Randle McMurphy]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

[bluerap23]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

Ah so it isn't important to have a good defender behind the plate? Got ya. BTW - Moreno has been a better hitter than Kirk for over a year and is still developing. Danny (made of glass) is a fine backup. The "worse" player has been worth more wins than both of our catchers COMBINED.

[bluerap23]

[Randle McMurphy]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

Ah so it isn't important to have a good defender behind the plate? Got ya. BTW - Moreno has been a better hitter than Kirk for over a year and is still developing. Danny (made of glass) is a fine backup. The "worse" player has been worth more wins than both of our catchers COMBINED.

I prefer to look at StatCast-based projections rather than exceedingly small sample sizes to assess players (you'll notice Moreno doesn't even show up on the top 30 here, while Kirk and Jansen are 11th and 15th respectfully in WAR for the 2024 season and combine for easily the best catcher situation in baseball): https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebatx&sortcol=20&sortdir=desc

Both Kirk and Jansen, by any metric, are projected to be far better catchers than the overrated non-hitter Moreno in 2024 and I would expect that will bear itself out very clearly as the season goes on. But please, keep pining for such mediocre players when the Jays are likely the best positionally at that position in 2024 in the entire sport. I'm sure it will end well betting on a guy who couldn't hit a ball out of the infield if he had to save his life.

[Mehar]

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

Ah so it isn't important to have a good defender behind the plate? Got ya. BTW - Moreno has been a better hitter than Kirk for over a year and is still developing. Danny (made of glass) is a fine backup. The "worse" player has been worth more wins than both of our catchers COMBINED.

I prefer to look at StatCast-based projections rather than exceedingly small sample sizes to assess players (you'll notice Moreno doesn't even show up on the top 30 here, while Kirk and Jansen are 11th and 15th respectfully in WAR for the 2024 season and combine for easily the best catcher situation in baseball): https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebatx&sortcol=20&sortdir=desc

Both Kirk and Jansen, by any metric, are projected to be far better catchers than the overrated non-hitter Moreno in 2024 and I would expect that will bear itself out very clearly as the season goes on. But please, keep pining for such mediocre players when the Jays are likely the best positionally at that position in 2024 in the entire sport. I'm sure it will end well betting on a guy who couldn't hit a ball out of the infield if he had to save his life.

It is laughable to use 2024 Projections to evaluate players as opposed to actual data from a 162 Game Season. Projections are educated guesses on how you think a player will perform, and not the be all and end all. However, when we look at actual data from the 2023 Season, Varsho was beyond atrocious hitting wise and Moreno was much better than Kirk in every category except for hitting one less homer.

The so called mediocre non-hitting "Light Bat" of Moreno had a much higher Batting Average, OPS, SLG, RBI's and On-Base percentage than the so called "Power Bat" of Kirk that produced 8 Home Runs last year. Moreno was also Number 1 In MLB in terms of Defensive War, and won the Gold Glove. How many Gold Gloves has Kirk gotten? Hitting .284 in your Rookie Year which Moreno did is not the definition of a non-hitter. I guess you prefer the horrific .220 BA and .674 OPS of Varsho over a 162 Game Season.

[Madvillainy2004]

Ah so it isn't important to have a good defender behind the plate? Got ya. BTW - Moreno has been a better hitter than Kirk for over a year and is still developing. Danny (made of glass) is a fine backup. The "worse" player has been worth more wins than both of our catchers COMBINED.

I prefer to look at StatCast-based projections rather than exceedingly small sample sizes to assess players (you'll notice Moreno doesn't even show up on the top 30 here, while Kirk and Jansen are 11th and 15th respectfully in WAR for the 2024 season and combine for easily the best catcher situation in baseball): https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebatx&sortcol=20&sortdir=desc

Both Kirk and Jansen, by any metric, are projected to be far better catchers than the overrated non-hitter Moreno in 2024 and I would expect that will bear itself out very clearly as the season goes on. But please, keep pining for such mediocre players when the Jays are likely the best positionally at that position in 2024 in the entire sport. I'm sure it will end well betting on a guy who couldn't hit a ball out of the infield if he had to save his life.

It is laughable to use 2024 Projections to evaluate players as opposed to actual data from a 162 Game Season. Projections are educated guesses on how you think a player will perform, and not the be all and end all. However, when we look at actual data from the 2023 Season, Varsho was beyond atrocious hitting wise and Moreno was much better than Kirk in every category except for hitting one less homer.

The so called mediocre non-hitting "Light Bat" of Moreno had a much higher Batting Average, OPS, SLG, RBI's and On-Base percentage than the so called "Power Bat" of Kirk that produced 8 Home Runs last year. Moreno was also Number 1 In MLB in terms of Defensive War, and won the Gold Glove. How many Gold Gloves has Kirk gotten? Hitting .284 in your Rookie Year which Moreno did is not the definition of a non-hitter. I guess you prefer the horrific .220 BA and .674 OPS of Varsho over a 162 Game Season.

Bball reff dWAR for catchers is super noisy and his WAR was carried heavily by pitcher ERA which is super noisy and shows like 0 consistency year to year. Kirk is absolutely a elite defender in his own right, being one of the best blockers and framers at his postion. Moreno is elite too but he still has a lot of holes in his overall game. And if we're talking offense Jansen is one of the best bats in the game at catcher. The difference between these 3 is like barely anything. And Varsho for his short comings will probably be the best defensive OF again. Which can absolutely work in any competitive team. This team is missing offense from him and Kirk. But Vlad/Springers declines has hurt the team a lot more. Varsho has like 5+ more fWAR than Vlad since 2022.

[Quattro]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

Does it matter what that catcher is doing now? All that matters is what we got back in return for a top prospect at the time he was traded.

[Mehar]

I prefer to look at StatCast-based projections rather than exceedingly small sample sizes to assess players (you'll notice Moreno doesn't even show up on the top 30 here, while Kirk and Jansen are 11th and 15th respectfully in WAR for the 2024 season and combine for easily the best catcher situation in baseball): https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?pos=c&stats=bat&type=thebatx&sortcol=20&sortdir=desc

Both Kirk and Jansen, by any metric, are projected to be far better catchers than the overrated non-hitter Moreno in 2024 and I would expect that will bear itself out very clearly as the season goes on. But please, keep pining for such mediocre players when the Jays are likely the best positionally at that position in 2024 in the entire sport. I'm sure it will end well betting on a guy who couldn't hit a ball out of the infield if he had to save his life.

It is laughable to use 2024 Projections to evaluate players as opposed to actual data from a 162 Game Season. Projections are educated guesses on how you think a player will perform, and not the be all and end all. However, when we look at actual data from the 2023 Season, Varsho was beyond atrocious hitting wise and Moreno was much better than Kirk in every category except for hitting one less homer.

The so called mediocre non-hitting "Light Bat" of Moreno had a much higher Batting Average, OPS, SLG, RBI's and On-Base percentage than the so called "Power Bat" of Kirk that produced 8 Home Runs last year. Moreno was also Number 1 In MLB in terms of Defensive War, and won the Gold Glove. How many Gold Gloves has Kirk gotten? Hitting .284 in your Rookie Year which Moreno did is not the definition of a non-hitter. I guess you prefer the horrific .220 BA and .674 OPS of Varsho over a 162 Game Season.

Bball reff dWAR for catchers is super noisy and his WAR was carried heavily by pitcher ERA which is super noisy and shows like 0 consistency year to year. Kirk is absolutely a elite defender in his own right, being one of the best blockers and framers at his postion. Moreno is elite too but he still has a lot of holes in his overall game. And if we're talking offense Jansen is one of the best bats in the game at catcher. The difference between these 3 is like barely anything. And Varsho for his short comings will probably be the best defensive OF again. Which can absolutely work in any competitive team. This team is missing offense from him and Kirk. But Vlad/Springers declines has hurt the team a lot more. Varsho has like 5+ more fWAR than Vlad since 2022.

Another laughable comment about WAR being super noisy, carried by Pitcher ERA. The Jays had a pretty solid pitching staff in 2023, yet Kirk's WAR was still mediocre while Moreno was Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR as a 23 year old Rookie. There is nothing subjective the way

Moreno shuts down an opposing team's running game, with his ability to make accurate throws with his elite arm and throw out runners trying to steal on him. Moreno going into his second year might have holes in his overall game, but I see a lot of holes in Fat Kirk entering Year 5. That being said I agree if Vlad/Springer get their act together, the offensive shortcomings of Varsho/Kirk can be mitigated.

[Madvillainy2004]

It is laughable to use 2024 Projections to evaluate players as opposed to actual data from a 162 Game Season. Projections are educated guesses on how you think a player will perform, and not the be all and end all. However, when we look at actual data from the 2023 Season, Varsho was beyond atrocious hitting wise and Moreno was much better than Kirk in every category except for hitting one less homer.

The so called mediocre non-hitting "Light Bat" of Moreno had a much higher Batting Average, OPS, SLG, RBI's and On-Base percentage than the so called "Power Bat" of Kirk that produced 8 Home Runs last year. Moreno was also Number 1 In MLB in terms of Defensive War, and won the Gold Glove. How many Gold Gloves has Kirk gotten? Hitting .284 in your Rookie Year which Moreno did is not the definition of a non-hitter. I guess you prefer the horrific .220 BA and .674 OPS of Varsho over a 162 Game Season.

Bball reff dWAR for catchers is super noisy and his WAR was carried heavily by pitcher ERA which is super noisy and shows like 0 consistency year to year. Kirk is absolutely a elite defender in his own right, being one of the best blockers and framers at his postion. Moreno is elite too but he still has a lot of holes in his overall game. And if we're talking offense Jansen is one of the best bats in the game at catcher. The difference between these 3 is like barely anything. And Varsho for his short comings will probably be the best defensive OF again. Which can absolutely work in any competitive team. This team is missing offense from him and Kirk. But Vlad/Springers declines has hurt the team a lot more. Varsho has like 5+ more fWAR than Vlad since 2022.

Another laughable comment about WAR being super noisy, carried by Pitcher ERA. The Jays had a pretty solid pitching staff in 2023, yet Kirk's WAR was still mediocre while Moreno was Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR as a 23 year old Rookie. There is nothing subjective the way

Moreno shuts down an opposing team's running game, with his ability to make accurate throws with his elite arm and throw out runners trying to steal on him. Moreno going into his second year might have holes in his overall game, but I see a lot of holes in Fat Kirk entering Year 5. That being said I agree if Vlad/Springer get their act together, the offensive shortcomings of Varsho/Kirk can be mitigated.

I won't go into the brass tacts of why Morenos bWAR was inflated vs his fWar but this reddit thread provides a solid representation of why pitcher ERA being part of the calculation is kinda dumb.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Torontobluejays/s/LqGg6m3oCL

[s e n s i]

That first catch was sick. The second and third were pretty routine. It's funny how you keep referencing this trade as though it were straight up though. There was this incredible prospect attached.

He makes catches like this on the regular, it’s why he’s the best defensive player in the game.

And I take it you’re referring to the no-hit catcher who is a worse player than two catchers already on the active team’s roster? We’re pining for that guy too?

Sad stuff.

Does it matter what that catcher is doing now? All that matters is what we got back in return for a top prospect at the time he was traded.

we got back the best defensive outfielder in baseball. for a light-hitting, defense-first catcher, more than that would have been a fleecing. is that what you expect from management? to absolutely take the other team to the cleaners on virtually every trade?

[Randle McMurphy]

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Real ones know.

[bluerap23]

Some of the counter arguments here are completely ridiculous. This player is PROJECTED to have a good season! Too small a sample size (greater than a full season where he was only a rookie) so let's use some made up numbers instead?

Bottom line - they made this deal because they thought Varsho would become a much better offensive player. Instead he has become a worse offensive player. I am routing for him to turn it around, but to date, this trade is a major L. And management has made it even more pathetic by playing him primarily in LF where his elite defence isn't even that important.

[Randle McMurphy]

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Varsho laughs at the Moreno/Lourdes backers.

[s e n s i]

moreno jockriders every time varsho does something good for the team they support, the toronto blue jays

[bluerap23]

moreno jockriders every time varsho does something good for the team they support, the toronto blue jays

I am praying that Varsho proves me wrong. I would love nothing more. But all I can do is look at results to date.