2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 6 - The Playoff Quest for a Title

[TeamTragic]

Sorry but KD is not being traded and neither is Beal. I want them both on this team with a coach/offensive coordinator that fits them best. Booker is in a slump and I am just as frustrated with him as everyone else.

Dude appears to have completely checked out and doesn't seem to give a ****. That is the main issue I have with him right now and I hope he shows up in the next two games.

Otherwise I can see Matt sitting down with Booker and telling him that as the owner he has to make this team better. If Booker doesn't agree with his vision then maybe you start putting out feelers in the league.

[Slim Charless]

Simmons is pretty close to Ish too. Remember he got that solo interview with him last year? Right after he bought the team. I imagine if you looked into Simmons's phone, you'd see Ish's number in there. The 2 are at least somewhat close.

Point is, if Simmons is saying that Ishbia would be thinking of trading guys-then I'd listen. The stuff about JJ and to a lesser degree Vogel means nothing to me as anyone could see that coming.

I doubt Simmons is close to Ish. He has had interviews with loads of people, including Obama...I doubt they are really close. They talked about The Wire.

I also remember a column a long time ago when he said he ran into Isiah Thomas at a pool (in Vegas or something) and it was a guy he had always ridiculed building the Knicks and he ended up saying good things about him after they talked, from what I remember.

I seriously doubt anyone listens to Simmons on trade ideas.

Ummmmm

Simmons nailed Ishbia buying our team lol. Like he was the 1st media member to even mention his name. If you don't believe me (which you never do lol) you're welcome to check it out yourself. Go find his nba preview from last year. He mentioned Ishbia by name. Then gets the 1st ever interview with him.

Seems like quite a coincidence to me.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I mean if we don't blow it up what's that going to look like? We are hardcapped and can make basically no moves. We'd have to more or less run it back and could sign guys on the vet min. After this **** of a season, you think anyone noteworthy will give up money to try to win? If we get swept there's zero chance of that happening. Maybe if we somehow turn it around and win this series we'll be able to convince someone but probably not.

So we run it back next year, all these young teams just getting better and there's a good chance we don't even make the playoffs next year. KD walks away for nothing, Booker demands a trade and his value tanks because we have no leverage. Our best option for the future is to ship out Booker and KD this offseason. Otherwise we're screwed until the 2030's. Our chances of winning a title with this core are closer to 0% than 100%. A lot closer.

Very true and accurate assessment man. Honestly, Aside from running things back as is, our best alternative consideration would be to quickly move KD this summer to a team like New York or possibly OKC, pick up more depth pieces and young players, draft assets, then draft a good center from the draft, and look to see if we can flip Nurkic to a team for a slightly lesser talented but more athletic/mobile center/ pieces and maybe a pick or some 2nds. With moving Nurkic, I'd look at teams like:

Brooklyn (If they lose Claxton in free agency)
Nurkic for Schroder/Sharpe/ Miami 25' 2nd (protcted 31-37)/ Memphis 28' 2nd (no protections)/ DAL 29' 2nd (no protections).

Golden State
Nurkic for Kevon Looney/Gary Payton 2nd/ 24' 2nd via CLE, UTA, CHI, NOP, OR MIL (53rd pick)/ ATL 26' 2nd (no protections)/ ATL 28' 2nd (no protections).

Washington
Nurkic for Holmes/Kispert/ 24' 1st (26th pick) via OKC, HOU, LAC, UTA/ phx 25' 2nd.

San Antonio
Nurkic for Collins/Bassey/ LAL 24' 2nd ( 48th pick)/ NOP 25' 2nd/ CHI 25' 2nd.

New York (Maybe as part of a KD trade)
Nurkic for Robinson/Mcbride/ NYK 24' 1st (25th pick)/ BRK 25 2nd (no protections).

[TeamTragic]

Simmons is pretty close to Ish too. Remember he got that solo interview with him last year? Right after he bought the team. I imagine if you looked into Simmons's phone, you'd see Ish's number in there. The 2 are at least somewhat close.

Point is, if Simmons is saying that Ishbia would be thinking of trading guys-then I'd listen. The stuff about JJ and to a lesser degree Vogel means nothing to me as anyone could see that coming.

I doubt Simmons is close to Ish. He has had interviews with loads of people, including Obama...I doubt they are really close. They talked about The Wire.

I also remember a column a long time ago when he said he ran into Isiah Thomas at a pool (in Vegas or something) and it was a guy he had always ridiculed building the Knicks and he ended up saying good things about him after they talked, from what I remember.

I seriously doubt anyone listens to Simmons on trade ideas.

Ummmmm

Simmons nailed Ishbia buying our team lol. Like he was the 1st media member to even mention his name. If you don't believe me (which you never do lol) you're welcome to check it out yourself. Go find his nba preview from last year. He mentioned Ishbia by name. Then gets the 1st ever interview with him.

Seems like quite a coincidence to me.

Are we suggesting that Ishbia told Simmons that he is going to trade Booker?

[Qwigglez]

Yeah I don't see the Heat trading Herro for Beal. It would be different if Herro was putting up his rookie numbers, but he's already on his 2nd contract putting up 20 points a game, 5 rebounds, 4.5 assists. While his numbers haven't really improved in the last 3 seasons, he's still staying consistent putting up these numbers, while Beal is putting up less stats. I do understand Beal has taken a step back for Booker and KD, but still.
I think KD for Jalen Williams makes more sense if the Thunder go into win now mode. Obviously that is still a stretch saying that mostly because they were already the No 1 seed this year

[Slim Charless]

I doubt Simmons is close to Ish. He has had interviews with loads of people, including Obama...I doubt they are really close. They talked about The Wire.

I also remember a column a long time ago when he said he ran into Isiah Thomas at a pool (in Vegas or something) and it was a guy he had always ridiculed building the Knicks and he ended up saying good things about him after they talked, from what I remember.

I seriously doubt anyone listens to Simmons on trade ideas.

Ummmmm

Simmons nailed Ishbia buying our team lol. Like he was the 1st media member to even mention his name. If you don't believe me (which you never do lol) you're welcome to check it out yourself. Go find his nba preview from last year. He mentioned Ishbia by name. Then gets the 1st ever interview with him.

Seems like quite a coincidence to me.

Are we suggesting that Ishbia told Simmons that he is going to trade Booker?

No I think Simmons probably thinks that we'll move KD...cause he's mentioned it previously. Now did Ish say that directly to him? No. But Simmons knows the guy and knows his personality.

You probably can get a general idea of what 1 of your buddies will do in a given situation yes? Not that I'm saying they're buddies, but they they know each other and probably talk on occasion.

[TeamTragic]

Ummmmm

Simmons nailed Ishbia buying our team lol. Like he was the 1st media member to even mention his name. If you don't believe me (which you never do lol) you're welcome to check it out yourself. Go find his nba preview from last year. He mentioned Ishbia by name. Then gets the 1st ever interview with him.

Seems like quite a coincidence to me.

Are we suggesting that Ishbia told Simmons that he is going to trade Booker?

No I think Simmons probably thinks that we'll move KD...cause he's mentioned it previously. Now did Ish say that directly to him? No. But Simmons knows the guy and knows his personality.

You probably can get a general idea of what 1 of your buddies will do in a given situation yes? Not that I'm saying they're buddies, but they they know each other and probably talk on occasion.

That is absolutely ridiculous. KD is not the issue with this team and he is locked into his contract. Ishbia isn't going to make a big splash move and then walk it back after barely one full season.

[bwgood77]

I mean if we don't blow it up what's that going to look like? We are hardcapped and can make basically no moves. We'd have to more or less run it back and could sign guys on the vet min. After this **** of a season, you think anyone noteworthy will give up money to try to win? If we get swept there's zero chance of that happening. Maybe if we somehow turn it around and win this series we'll be able to convince someone but probably not.

So we run it back next year, all these young teams just getting better and there's a good chance we don't even make the playoffs next year. KD walks away for nothing, Booker demands a trade and his value tanks because we have no leverage. Our best option for the future is to ship out Booker and KD this offseason. Otherwise we're screwed until the 2030's. Our chances of winning a title with this core are closer to 0% than 100%. A lot closer.

Very true and accurate assessment man. Honestly, Aside from running things back as is, our best alternative consideration would be to quickly move KD this summer to a team like New York or possibly OKC, pick up more depth pieces and young players, draft assets, then draft a good center from the draft, and look to see if we can flip Nurkic to a team for a slightly lesser talented but more athletic/mobile center/ pieces and maybe a pick or some 2nds. With moving Nurkic, I'd look at teams like:

Brooklyn (If they lose Claxton in free agency)
Nurkic for Schroder/Sharpe/ Miami 25' 2nd (protcted 31-37)/ Memphis 28' 2nd (no protections)/ DAL 29' 2nd (no protections).

Golden State
Nurkic for Kevon Looney/Gary Payton 2nd/ 24' 2nd via CLE, UTA, CHI, NOP, OR MIL (53rd pick)/ ATL 26' 2nd (no protections)/ ATL 28' 2nd (no protections).

Washington
Nurkic for Holmes/Kispert/ 24' 1st (26th pick) via OKC, HOU, LAC, UTA/ phx 25' 2nd.

San Antonio
Nurkic for Collins/Bassey/ LAL 24' 2nd ( 48th pick)/ NOP 25' 2nd/ CHI 25' 2nd.

New York (Maybe as part of a KD trade)
Nurkic for Robinson/Mcbride/ NYK 24' 1st (25th pick)/ BRK 25 2nd (no protections).

Yeah, KD's value will only go down, not only because he is getting older, but because he has fewer years on his contract. His trade value was high when we traded for him because he had 3 1/2 years left on his deal. But now he has 2. If we wait until he has 1, we won't get much, because teams will fear he would leave them after a year so why trade a ton for him?

That's why on Simmons' podcast with KOC they talked a little about the idea of trading Booker (though they don't think it will happen) because he's locked up until 2028 and he probably has the most trade value he will ever have because of his few seasons with Paul and us getting far in the playoffs. But if we are somehow terrible next year or miss the playoffs I think his trade value will diminish.

I would probably rather just trade KD...but it just depends on what kind of deals there are. I don't expect us to entertain trading Book at all and probably not KD if Book wants him to stay.

If we could trade Nurkic and get a defensive C even if he couldn't pass, hit 3s etc, but he could play solid D and finish inside, that would be great. Nurkic is hurting us in this series too. He just isn't a good playoff C..he's too slow and he can't finish. It's weird people complained so much about dunking in the past when you never see him do it. He just throws it up there sometimes and hopes it goes in.

[bwgood77]

Yeah I don't see the Heat trading Herro for Beal. It would be different if Herro was putting up his rookie numbers, but he's already on his 2nd contract putting up 20 points a game, 5 rebounds, 4.5 assists. While his numbers haven't really improved in the last 3 seasons, he's still staying consistent putting up these numbers, while Beal is putting up less stats. I do understand Beal has taken a step back for Booker and KD, but still.
I think KD for Jalen Williams makes more sense if the Thunder go into win now mode. Obviously that is still a stretch saying that mostly because they were already the No 1 seed this year

Yeah, I think Beal is better but Herro's contract is cheaper (though still $30 million a year) and he's younger and less injury prone. But sometimes people act like Beal is terrible. He's overpaid but he is one of only a handful of guards putting up 18, 5 ast, 4 reb on over 60% shooting. I think the only other guards that are doing that are SGA, Luka, Kyrie, Curry and Book. IF you add a steal per game on there, it reduces to just SGA, Luka and Kyrie. Herro scores more but is not terribly efficient at 55.8% TS%...but of course he has more trade value given the contract amount, age and injury risk level.

[Qwigglez]

Yeah, I think Beal is better but Herro's contract is cheaper (though still $30 million a year) and he's younger and less injury prone. But sometimes people act like Beal is terrible. He's overpaid but he is one of only a handful of guards putting up 18, 5 ast, 4 reb on over 60% shooting. I think the only other guards that are doing that are SGA, Luka, Kyrie, Curry and Book. IF you add a steal per game on there, it reduces to just SGA, Luka and Kyrie. Herro scores more but is not terribly efficient at 55.8% TS%...but of course he has more trade value given the contract amount, age and injury risk level.

Well Beal played more games than Herro did this season. Didn't Herro break his hand or something last year in the playoffs? I'm unsure if that was why he missed a lot of games this season. But yeah, he hasn't improved his efficiency at all, this being his 5th season and all. A lot of people compared Herro to Booker and thought he'd have a similar trajectory, and perhaps that could have been possible if Herro wasn't in Miami. I say that because I seen Herro living it up there and that likely takes away from developing more basketball skills.

Despite all that, I would probably trade Beal for Herro and Duncan Robinson. Mostly because his age, and his idol was Book, so maybe he elevates his game. If the Heat wouldn't make that deal, I'm also fine with just keeping Beal. I'd make the deal because the Suns could use more depth, and Duncan Robinson is a lethal 3PT shooter. Suns would need a different head coach though in order to maximize DR's skillset IMO.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://youtu.be/KpCThagW0Ew

Interesting that Broussard brings up KD being traded again, but really not that surprising as he IS our best and most valuable (resource) asset that we can and would actually consider trading well before considering trading Booker because not only is he our franchise player that stuck it out with us through all the BS years, but also because he much like our owner is a Detroit guy, and is locked up till 2028. And much like Paul coming here and KD too choosing to come here (Jones had nothing to do with it aside from signing off on the paperwork for the deal and little else really) Booker was the strong influence or driving force that pulled those stars here, even though after multiple playoff series, it's fairly obvious Booker is a 1B tier star (a robin) and not a 1A tier star (a batman true leader type) even if he wants to be!

Sure KD has been great and isn't the core issue behind our issues and/or struggles, although his age, turnovers, and dimishing dominance (father time is undefeated)! are small but relevant contributory factors. None of these things will directly result in the suns trading KD. None of these factors will directly influence us trading KD (by the trade deadline) aside from KDs' age and tethered depreciating value as his contract reduces and he ages further. KD will ultimately be a casualty of our front offices' very poor decisions absent of responsible planning and Our inept grifter GMs' inability to construct a decent roster, and most of all our new ownerships rash and impulsive overeagerness. KD will be traded because he's simply our best available asset (that we can or would be willing to) actually trade. Because Booker is the face of our franchise who even though not truly a top tier star, is still in his prime, locked up for multiple years, AND is a Detroit native just like our new owner!

And Beal just can't be traded anywhere without his consent, and won't have much if any value due to his injury history, significantly bloated salary, and his no trade clause that no other franchise is willing to take on! This is why I kept telling everyone back when we did the trade that we overpaid because we held all of the leverage. Ultimately though, Durant has been great and surely carried our team for significant portions of the season and postseason. BUT he'll get traded because he's our best and most valuable available asset, and we just won't get better under the current conditions of this team.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Watch on YouTube

Broussard also discusses the major issues around the suns struggles and outcome, and at 7:00 minutes in discusses the possibilty of trading KD, and why he'd be the likely one traded over Booker or Beal. He actually gives a really good breakdown of the basic factors that put our team in this situation, And how very limited our options if any (aside from trading KD) are going forward.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Revived]

I’d call the Lakers and try for a KD for AD trade straight up. Lebron and KD together can sell more tickets for them than LeBron and AD.

AD would be godsend the Suns team. He’s probably got 2-3 years left in him before being washed.

[Revived]

But sometimes people act like Beal is terrible. He's overpaid but he is one of only a handful of guards putting up 18, 5 ast, 4 reb on over 60% shooting. I think the only other guards that are doing that are SGA, Luka, Kyrie, Curry and Book. IF you add a steal per game on there, it reduces to just SGA, Luka and Kyrie.

Bw I’ve seen you mention this before and you do realize that a big part of this is because Beal played in very few games this season right?

He played in like 50 games this season. It’s an 82 game season, if he missed 10 more games he’d have missed literally half the season.

Beal likely wouldn’t have maintained those stats you mentioned if he actually played like 75+ games. I’m not saying he hasn’t done it before in his career but he’s not the player now that he was when he was younger (obviously).

It’s like a 3pt specialist playing 10 games and maybe he was hot for 10 games and shooting 70% from 3 then suffers a season ending injury…at the end of the season, yeah he would technically have the highest 3pt shooting % (if he misses the min attempts criteria) but it lacks context of other players percentages being lower because of them having played more games.

All statistics and analytics are pointless without actual context behind it. Even the analytics guru Daryl Morey has said this before at one of the Sloan analytics conferences.

[lilfishi22]

But sometimes people act like Beal is terrible. He's overpaid but he is one of only a handful of guards putting up 18, 5 ast, 4 reb on over 60% shooting. I think the only other guards that are doing that are SGA, Luka, Kyrie, Curry and Book. IF you add a steal per game on there, it reduces to just SGA, Luka and Kyrie.

Bw I’ve seen you mention this before and you do realize that a big part of this is because Beal played in very few games this season right?

He played in like 50 games this season. It’s an 82 game season, if he missed 10 more games he’d have missed literally half the season.

Beal likely wouldn’t have maintained those stats you mentioned if he actually played like 75+ games. I’m not saying he hasn’t done it before in his career but he’s not the player now that he was when he was younger (obviously).

It’s like a 3pt specialist playing 10 games and maybe he was hot for 10 games and shooting 70% from 3 then suffers a season ending injury…at the end of the season, yeah he would technically have the highest 3pt shooting % (if he misses the min attempts criteria) but it lacks context of other players percentages being lower because of them having played more games.

All statistics and analytics are pointless without actual context behind it. Even the analytics guru Daryl Morey has said this before at one of the Sloan analytics conferences.

I'd argue if not for this "system" we're running those stats would probably be better if not more achievable. Sure the efficiency might take a hit but he's *that* talented. Anyone who can put up B2B seasons averaging 30ppg+ on good efficiency is talented.

The way you're talking about it makes it seems like he's a bum that had a lucky stretch.

[Revived]

But sometimes people act like Beal is terrible. He's overpaid but he is one of only a handful of guards putting up 18, 5 ast, 4 reb on over 60% shooting. I think the only other guards that are doing that are SGA, Luka, Kyrie, Curry and Book. IF you add a steal per game on there, it reduces to just SGA, Luka and Kyrie.

Bw I’ve seen you mention this before and you do realize that a big part of this is because Beal played in very few games this season right?

He played in like 50 games this season. It’s an 82 game season, if he missed 10 more games he’d have missed literally half the season.

Beal likely wouldn’t have maintained those stats you mentioned if he actually played like 75+ games. I’m not saying he hasn’t done it before in his career but he’s not the player now that he was when he was younger (obviously).

It’s like a 3pt specialist playing 10 games and maybe he was hot for 10 games and shooting 70% from 3 then suffers a season ending injury…at the end of the season, yeah he would technically have the highest 3pt shooting % (if he misses the min attempts criteria) but it lacks context of other players percentages being lower because of them having played more games.

All statistics and analytics are pointless without actual context behind it. Even the analytics guru Daryl Morey has said this before at one of the Sloan analytics conferences.

I'd argue if not for this "system" we're running those stats would probably be better if not more achievable. Sure the efficiency might take a hit but he's *that* talented. Anyone who can put up B2B seasons averaging 30ppg+ on good efficiency is talented.

The way you're talking about it makes it seems like he's a bum that had a lucky stretch.

I’m saying he’s a bum but cherry-picking stats to show “only X amount of players averaged this” without mentioning games played lacks context.

Regardless, Bradley Beal is seen as one of the very worst contracts in the NBA by everyone except for handful of Suns fans. He proved how fragile he continues to be with his missed games this season and he’s owed a whopping $200 million still so his value is even less. Every sports analyst, including guys like Kevin O’Connor, Zach Lowe etc have all talked about how the Beal contract will be tough to move now and nobody will want it because Beal is obviously to have his body break down even more as he ages even more.

Nobody wants to pay Beal $50 million/yr for 30-40 games. Not even if he averages 40 pts, 20 rebounds and 10 assists a game.

[lilfishi22]

Bw I’ve seen you mention this before and you do realize that a big part of this is because Beal played in very few games this season right?

He played in like 50 games this season. It’s an 82 game season, if he missed 10 more games he’d have missed literally half the season.

Beal likely wouldn’t have maintained those stats you mentioned if he actually played like 75+ games. I’m not saying he hasn’t done it before in his career but he’s not the player now that he was when he was younger (obviously).

It’s like a 3pt specialist playing 10 games and maybe he was hot for 10 games and shooting 70% from 3 then suffers a season ending injury…at the end of the season, yeah he would technically have the highest 3pt shooting % (if he misses the min attempts criteria) but it lacks context of other players percentages being lower because of them having played more games.

All statistics and analytics are pointless without actual context behind it. Even the analytics guru Daryl Morey has said this before at one of the Sloan analytics conferences.

I'd argue if not for this "system" we're running those stats would probably be better if not more achievable. Sure the efficiency might take a hit but he's *that* talented. Anyone who can put up B2B seasons averaging 30ppg+ on good efficiency is talented.

The way you're talking about it makes it seems like he's a bum that had a lucky stretch.

I’m saying he’s a bum but cherry-picking stats to show “only X amount of players averaged this” without mentioning games played lacks context.

Regardless, Bradley Beal is seen as one of the very worst contracts in the NBA by everyone except for handful of Suns fans. He proved how fragile he continues to be with his missed games this season and he’s owed a whopping $200 million still so his value is even less. Every sports analyst, including guys like Kevin O’Connor, Zach Lowe etc have all talked about how the Beal contract will be tough to move now and nobody will want it because Beal is obviously to have his body break down even more as he ages even more.

Nobody wants to pay Beal $50 million/yr for 30-40 games. Not even if he averages 40 pts, 20 rebounds and 10 assists a game.

Nobody happy he only managed 53 games and that's a legit point of contention for someone on $50m a year. But it was either do nothing and run with CP3 (58gms) and Shamet (46gms) or take a punt on the upside of Beal which is what we did. I'd still make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[enigmatics]

Yeah, KD's value will only go down, not only because he is getting older, but because he has fewer years on his contract. His trade value was high when we traded for him because he had 3 1/2 years left on his deal. But now he has 2. If we wait until he has 1, we won't get much, because teams will fear he would leave them after a year so why trade a ton for him?

That's why on Simmons' podcast with KOC they talked a little about the idea of trading Booker (though they don't think it will happen) because he's locked up until 2028 and he probably has the most trade value he will ever have because of his few seasons with Paul and us getting far in the playoffs. But if we are somehow terrible next year or miss the playoffs I think his trade value will diminish.

I would probably rather just trade KD...but it just depends on what kind of deals there are. I don't expect us to entertain trading Book at all and probably not KD if Book wants him to stay.

If we could trade Nurkic and get a defensive C even if he couldn't pass, hit 3s etc, but he could play solid D and finish inside, that would be great. Nurkic is hurting us in this series too. He just isn't a good playoff C..he's too slow and he can't finish. It's weird people complained so much about dunking in the past when you never see him do it. He just throws it up there sometimes and hopes it goes in.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if we ain't talking about some all world defensive C - not much is gonna change from that facet of the game because they're putting arguably the worst perimeter defensive in the league out there on the court every night. In fact I'll say it like this - they're a fkn embarrassment. It's almost shameful.

There's also the fact that Durant IS NOT a 4 nor does he have the legs/energy to consistently play two-way and fight for boards or hustle on the weakside of things.

That's not to say Nurk doesn't have his limitations because he clearly does - but nothing this team is doing is synergistic when it comes to getting quality play out of a center. Should just call it Nurk island because there's nobody back there with him.

They walked into this season thinking they were going to be so overwhelming offensively that the holes wouldn't matter. As it would turn out they were gravely mistaken. Just about everything looks bad NOW in the playoffs when the games really matter. That's why I take nothing from the regular season anymore.

[Calvin Klein]

They walked into this season thinking they were going to be so overwhelming offensively that the holes wouldn't matter. As it would turn out they were gravely mistaken. Just about everything looks bad NOW in the playoffs when the games really matter. That's why I take nothing from the regular season anymore.

But you COULD see it in the regular season. They played with no urgency all season. The roster looked flawed all season. Leadership lacked all season. Inconsistency all around.

Only a few extremely homer people thought we would be doing well in the playoffs.