Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[raferfenix]

LET THE SPIN WARS COMMENCE.

It’s easy to see why Horst never wanted Griffin, who turned out to be one of the worst NBA head coaches in recent memory, or Rivers, whose teams have underperformed in the playoffs in nearly every season other than 2008, when his Celtics won the title. Rivers has longevity and respect from players, but he has historically given playing time to declining veterans over deserving young talent. That’s happening again this postseason, when Rivers has leaned too heavily on Jae Crowder, Pat Connaughton, and Malik Beasley. Anytime AJ Green or Andre Jackson was inserted into the game, good things tended to happen, but they received little investment from Doc during the season and virtually none in the playoffs until it was too late.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/4/29/24144232/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-milwaukee-bucks-nba-rumors

[BUCKnation]

I understand on a short timeframe Doc wanting to utilize the vets that he knows, but way too often they gave absolutely nothing or were a clear negative while the young guys provided positive play so I don't have much leeway for him in that respect.

+/- isnt everything, but AJJ being a +9 in 25 in a 13 pt loss is telling.

[ShootingtheJ]

People can bitch about "age" all you want. If you can convince Phoenix to do KD for Khris/Brook, I'm doing that in a heartbeat. If you wanna add a couple young guys that'll probably suck anyways, you already have picks 23 and 33 to do that.

No way the Suns do this. Nurkic is as good as Brook.

[WeMajor34]

If Horst (or his replacement) continues to keep Pat C on this team into next season, I’m going to lose it.

9.5 mil a year for mediocre play that adds relatively nothing to our playoff rotation.

If he’s still here, he must have something over Horst or ownership. He was great in ‘21, but his effect on the court has decreased over each following season.

[WeMajor34]

On the “Doc plays his vets too much” discourse, I agree but I too might think that seasoned playoff vets like Pat C and Jae could add SOMETHING to the on court product, but alas.

I’m glad he’s finally playing AJ and Andre over them. Pat C and Jae are slowly dying on the court.

[Thunder Muscle]

Yikes, sounds like a complete mess behind the scenes. What percentage would you put on Horst leaving for Detroit? Bucks ownership can use that to spin change will happen too. I have not followed Detroit’s situation, but if GM is open yet I think he is gone. He will have full control there and we have some major ego’s/personalities here between multiple owners, Doc, Giannis, and to a much lesser extent maybe Dame. I’d maybe bail too especially if Detroit offers better pay.

[German Athens]

I wanted Kenny during the season, but that article is just more Doc slander. I don’t buy it.

The “he didn’t play the young guys until it was too late” is nonsense. In a tied 1-1 series, Dre played more minutes than anyone else on the bench. In game 4 he played the fourth most minutes. It’s hard to scale up Dre’s minutes much more because he gets in foul trouble quickly, but even still Doc is playing him.

Doc has also had a really short leash on Beasley, Crowder, and Pat. He’s searching for guys who can play in any given game, and he isn’t approaching it poorly.

[MVP2110]

Jimmy Haslam running the Bucks just like he runs the Browns. None of us should be surprised.

[Thunder Muscle]

If Horst (or his replacement) continues to keep Pat C on this team into next season, I’m going to lose it.

9.5 mil a year for mediocre play that adds relatively nothing to our playoff rotation.

If he’s still here, he must have something over Horst or ownership. He was great in ‘21, but his effect on the court has decreased over each following season.

I agree, but what can you do? On his own nobody is going to trade for him with a player option in 25-26. His contract is essentially 2Y/19M. As PP said, have to hope to include him a bigger package trade somehow. Otherwise I think he is back.

[Ron Swanson]

I doubt anyone here actually thinks we don't need to get "younger" across the roster. The problem is more this thought process of needing to trade one of your two star assets/players to do so, and then wish-casting/deluding yourself into believing guys like Jaime Jacquez, Tyler Herro, Austin Reaves, etc. will magically develop into the 2nd best player on a championship team type dudes.

It's the "Khris for Spencer Dinwiddie. THJ, and a 1st" or "Khris for Jordan Poole and Moses Moody" type trade proposals on steroids. Trading Dame for 1-2 actual upside young guys like a Jalen Green, Keegan Murray, LaMelo Ball, etc.? Sure, at least we can have a conversation there.

[BigO]

Jokic got a dude like him as his #2 right now, won it all last year. Inconsistent offensively, makes up for it a lot of the time with clutch scoring and occasional big games, absolute sieve defensively. Hell, could even throw injury risk on top as a cherry.

Jokic is on a completely different level offensively vs Giannis. He doesn't have any weaknesses, Giannis has 3-4. Gordon MPJ and KCP are also miles ahead of Slopez Middleton & whatever garbage we put at SG.

No weaknesses, other than he doesn't score as much, and doesn't make shots at the same rate.

Then go to the other end, where Giannis is a defensive beast, and Jokic sucks.

The Bucks played them head to head, Giannis and Bobby went one on one constantly, scored at will, and won easily.

The idea of putting Jokic on a pedestal hovering over Giannis is bizarre.

Jokic is great but he has flaws, like Giannis. I'll take the Bucks starting five over Denver. Both benches suck.

The one thing that is valid is that Jokic will age better than Giannis unless the Bucks do something to save him from himself.

[JimmyTheKid]

I wanted Kenny during the season, but that article is just more Doc slander. I don’t buy it.

The “he didn’t play the young guys until it was too late” is nonsense. In a tied 1-1 series, Dre played more minutes than anyone else on the bench. In game 4 he played the fourth most minutes. It’s hard to scale up Dre’s minutes much more because he gets in foul trouble quickly, but even still Doc is playing him.

Doc has also had a really short leash on Beasley, Crowder, and Pat. He’s searching for guys who can play in any given game, and he isn’t approaching it poorly.

He didn't intend to play AJJ. Bucks were down 17 in the blink of an eye in Game 3 so Doc went into flinging-sh*t-at-the-wall mode. And AJJ, despite helping to flip the early script, didn't see the floor in crunch time, even though everyone else was gassed and his energy, athleticism, and ability to come up with the 50/50 balls was sorely needed to secure a single defensive round.

Giannis and Dame were OUT for game 4, Bobby got booted in the 1st quarter, and AJJ still wasn't on the court in crunch time despite having a really nice overall game. Doc's approach has been completely and embarrassingly reactive.

[msiris]

I doubt anyone here actually thinks we don't need to get "younger" across the roster. The problem is more this thought process of needing to trade one of your two star assets/players to do so, and then wish-casting/deluding yourself into believing guys like Jaime Jacquez, Tyler Herro, Austin Reaves, etc. will magically develop into the 2nd best player on a championship team type dudes.

It's the "Khris for Spencer Dinwiddie. THJ, and a 1st" or "Khris for Jordan Poole and Moses Moody" type trade proposals on steroids. Trading Dame for 1-2 actual upside young guys like a Jalen Green, Keegan Murray, LaMelo Ball, etc.? Sure, at least we can have a conversation there.

I wouldn't mind keeping the big 3 or even Brook but you better have better younger role players behind them.

[-Jragon-]

I wanted Kenny during the season, but that article is just more Doc slander. I don’t buy it.

The “he didn’t play the young guys until it was too late” is nonsense. In a tied 1-1 series, Dre played more minutes than anyone else on the bench. In game 4 he played the fourth most minutes. It’s hard to scale up Dre’s minutes much more because he gets in foul trouble quickly, but even still Doc is playing him.

Doc has also had a really short leash on Beasley, Crowder, and Pat. He’s searching for guys who can play in any given game, and he isn’t approaching it poorly.

Because team chemistry. Playing the young guys during the season would have helped them to build chemistry with the starters, right? Correct their mistakes..... you know, before the playoffs start. Before, as in, instead of during. This should have started at the beginning of March at the latest as we all obviously could see that the Beas/Crowder/Pat C bs wasn't working. They were like 1 for 7 every game and Dame/GA had to bail us out to get whatever wins we found. That all being said, I still like Doc but these decisions to live and die with the vets did F us.

[Ron Swanson]

People can bitch about "age" all you want. If you can convince Phoenix to do KD for Khris/Brook, I'm doing that in a heartbeat. If you wanna add a couple young guys that'll probably suck anyways, you already have picks 23 and 33 to do that.

No way the Suns do this. Nurkic is as good as Brook.

Guy sporting a 7/8/2 stat-line on 47% TS in a clean sweep. Sure, dude. Nurkic is slower Bobby without the green light.

[-Jragon-]

I wanted Kenny during the season, but that article is just more Doc slander. I don’t buy it.

The “he didn’t play the young guys until it was too late” is nonsense. In a tied 1-1 series, Dre played more minutes than anyone else on the bench. In game 4 he played the fourth most minutes. It’s hard to scale up Dre’s minutes much more because he gets in foul trouble quickly, but even still Doc is playing him.

Doc has also had a really short leash on Beasley, Crowder, and Pat. He’s searching for guys who can play in any given game, and he isn’t approaching it poorly.

He didn't intend to play AJJ. Bucks were down 17 in the blink of an eye in Game 3 so Doc went into flinging-sh*t-at-the-wall mode. And AJJ, despite helping to flip the early script, didn't see the floor in crunch time, even though everyone else was gassed and his energy, athleticism, and ability to come up with the 50/50 balls was sorely needed to secure a single defensive round.

Giannis and Dame were OUT for game 4, Bobby got booted in the 1st quarter, and AJJ still wasn't on the court in crunch time despite having a really nice overall game. Doc's approach has been completely and embarrassingly reactive.

100

[DingleJerry]

30ppgz should be enough fool’s gold to hook somebody else. Trading Dame is the easiest and best solution, players like him don’t win rings anyways what’s the attachment?

Jokic got a dude like him as his #2 right now, won it all last year. Inconsistent offensively, makes up for it a lot of the time with clutch scoring and occasional big games, absolute sieve defensively. Hell, could even throw injury risk on top as a cherry.

Yup. I went through it the other day 6/8 teams likely to make the 2nd round have a dude like this. Multiple title teams in the last 15-20 years have a dude like this, tons of final 4 teams who didn't get a title have guys like this. The team that is about to defeat us, has a guy like this. The notion that you can't win with a score first poor D lead guard is completely bunk.

[Matches Malone]

If Horst moves on, what are some GM candidates we could go after? Feels like this ownership will just promote Milt Newton to the role and make Doc POBO...

[JBucks]

That Lillard for FVV and Eason trade is gonna hit hard.

[raferfenix]

Horst is obviously orchestrating this coverage from Marc Stein pre-playoffs and now KOC before the team has even been eliminated.

I wonder what Doc and ownership really think about the roster and how much heat Jon is feeling.

"I got good young players Doc just didn't play them" seems like a very convenient narrative considering Horst's long history with multiple coaches on this front....and I like Green and Ajax a lot.