11/8/08 Suns/Bucks post game thread

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I think with Bogut we've got an adequate starting center for the next 5 to 8 years. Due to how weak his position is, he really may be top 10, and for that we had to pay. He's a good rebounder and defender, a good (but very overrated) passer, and a better scorer than most potential replacements (Gadz, Elson, etc).

He won't ever make us a good team, but he shouldn't prevent us from getting there either. He's neither the problem nor the solution. We've just got to keep working on the rest of the roster, keeping in mind that you need a top 10 player to win in the NBA, and Bogut ain't it.

[smooth 'lil balla]

I liked what I saw last night. Call me crazy. I thought Sessions was a bit over aggressive out there, but nobody could hit a shot, so I'll give him a pass. The Bucks played unselfish basketball and aggressive defense.

This is why we need Redd, and why he's probably the most important player on our team, along with Jefferson. These are the two guys who can put the ball in the whole. Remember, this is the object of the game.

I like the way the rest of our team is shaping up. Alexander is quick as sh$t. He's also quite big. Somoene needs to teach him to be an aggressive rebounder and shot blocker. Not sure if that can be taught, but if it can, this guy will be very good.

[europa]

I like the way the rest of our team is shaping up. Alexander is quick as sh$t. He's also quite big. Somoene needs to teach him to be an aggressive rebounder and shot blocker. Not sure if that can be taught, but if it can, this guy will be very good.

Among the few positives I saw last night was Alexander's play. I was very impressed and it's easy to see why Hammond and Skiles like him so much. He's quick, athletic, can get his shot off quickly and is a very good passer. He's a skilled player without question. What he needs to do is settle down a bit. He's a little jumpy on the court but that's understandable given how he was a rookie seeing his first serious action against one of the league's top teams. With Alexander, Sessions and M&M, the Bucks have three talented rookies (which is essentially what Sessions is) to groom for the future. That's definitely reason for optimism.

As far as Bogut, I'm not giving up on him at all. I still think he's a talented player. What he has shown in the past (notably the final 50 games of last season) leaves little doubt of that in my mind. But if a guy puts forward crappy effort he deserves to be called on it. It's not like this is something conjured up in this forum either - he got benched for nearly the entire first half so Skiles clearly wasn't happy with him either.

To address Press' question about motivation - I think that's a legitimate question to ask about any player who gets a big contract and is set for life. Will they still work to improve or will they fat on their big deal? I don't think Bogut is the type of player who will lose his drive and I don't think we can judge the deal or what Bogut will be after only seven games. But he does need to step up his play significantly. He didn't even offer a challenge to Shaq last night. Sure, Shaq looked like vintage Shaq but if Bogut is going to be one of the top young players in the game, then he needs to at least present a challenge. He presented nothing last night and that was extremely disappointing to see.

[unklchuk]

Bogut & motivation: I vote that he's an unlikely candidate to simply get lazy. But IMO he remains emotionally immature, with his productivity tied to moods that he should be getting control of long about now. Further, I think we need guards that will not just get the ball to him routinely, but get it to him with an advantage he can feel and exploit. He seems to need help to get started.

Strikes me he's still a moody adolescent.

[steger_3434]

I just got done watching the game and have seen yet another disapointing loss. Good effort from most of the guys, but good effort gets praised in D3 college and high school. Not in the pros.

This FT discrepancy is very alarming. I can't argue with too many of the fouls called on us, but it doesn't seem like we get any calls on the other end. When RJ does drive he creates a lot of contact, but never gets the call. Also, how about that double dribble on Raja Bell that was RIGHT in front of the official. The NBA would be such a better league to the general population if the refs weren't so awful.

Anyways, Bogut looks likes like a depressed bitch out there. No emotion whatsoever. He got completely made out to look like a clown against shaq. He was the sole reason we lost this game from a players perspective.

Ridnour sucks as well. Pass first? I'm not seeing it. He likes to chuck with the best of them, however since he's not a good shooter it's even worse.

I was impressed with JA and of course Luc tonight. Very encouraging to see the rookies come to play while our number one pick and mega millionaire pusses out once again.

[paulpressey25]

I think with Bogut we've got an adequate starting center for the next 5 to 8 years.
He won't ever make us a good team

Through the first seven games Bogut is averaging:

10.9ppg/9.4rpg/1.4bpg/1.6apg

FG% .559% FT% .400%

Discuss.

[TheGhostDog]

There's so much agony over Bogut's slow start that it got me wondering too. Somebody already pointed out that it's really just Bogut's scoring that is down significantly from last season - 10.9 ppg (versus 14.3 last year). His rebounding and shot blocking aren't off so much from a year ago - 9.4 rebounds (9.8), 1.43 blocks (1.73). Which got me wondering - Do you know how in baseball there are notoriously slow starters that can't seem to hit their weight in April and May but come on strong once summer hits? What if Bogut is the basketball equivalent - his offensive game doesn't turn on until after New Years?

That certainly was the pattern last season, when Bogut averaged 4 more points per game from January onwards. I think it's interesting to note that the same pattern holds (to a lesser extent) for all 3 of Bogut's NBA seasons so far.

2007-08 Nov-Dec 12 ppg
Jan+ 16 ppg

06-07 Nov-Dec 12 ppg
Jan+ 12.6 ppg

05-06 Nov-Dec 8.7 ppg
Jan+ 9.9 ppg
[Note: I just used averages of monthly averages to avoid excessive number crunching.]

The numbers are hardly conclusive, I know, but maybe there's enough of a consistent pattern to suggest that, offensively, Bogut is simply a slow starter. It will be interesting to see if his scoring average shoots up again come January.

[steger_3434]

I think with Bogut we've got an adequate starting center for the next 5 to 8 years.
He won't ever make us a good team

Through the first seven games Bogut is averaging:

10.9ppg/9.4rpg/1.4bpg/1.6apg

FG% .559% FT% .400%

Discuss.

In 5 games this nobody center is averaging

9ppg/8.2rpg/1.4bpg/.6apg

FG% .553 FT% 27%

Yup, the great Josh Boone is putting up stats similar to our "top" center. I made a comment a couple of games ago stating that I think Boguts offensive game has gotten worst. I was blasted for that comment at the time. It's still early, but it's looking like that could be the reality.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Further, I think we need guards that will not just get the ball to him routinely, but get it to him with an advantage he can feel and exploit. He seems to need help to get started.

Can you name some of the NBA guards who can do this? Who are these mythical creatures that you speak of?

[paulpressey25]

Bogut right now is pretty much the equivalent of the version of Jamaal Magloire that we had in the 2005-06 season. A solid 10/10 guy that won't hurt you but isn't what we expected.

I suppose our saving hope here is that guys like Nene and Dalembert didn't set the world on fire either after they got their big deals but have progressively become worth their contracts.

The really distressing thing though is this conditioning problem that Old Skool has referred to on here since Bogut's rookie year. He plays many nights out there like he has mono or the flu or something.

You somewhat wish Roger Clemen's trainer would start working with Bogut.

[TheGhostDog]

FG% .559% FT% .400%

Discuss.

In each of the past two seasons Bogut has had one awful free-throw shooting month when he converted less 50% of his attempts (2/07 47.5%, 12/07 49%). Maybe he's taking his mulligan month early this season?

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I think with Bogut we've got an adequate starting center for the next 5 to 8 years.
He won't ever make us a good team

Through the first seven games Bogut is averaging:

10.9ppg/9.4rpg/1.4bpg/1.6apg

FG% .559% FT% .400%

Discuss.

Are you disagreeing with me PP? It's not clear to me what you mean by posting his stats. To me those are adequate starting center stats. They look like what Ilgauskas, prime Magloire, or any other of the adequate centers can give you. Obviously they aren't Robinson/Olajuwan numbers, and obviously Bogut is not in that class of players.

All I'm trying to say is that we should stop looking to Bogut to be our savior. Stop making excuses about how the guards aren't helping him unleash his talent, and stop scheming to get him more involved in the offense. Just let him be the average-to-good center that he is, and start looking elsewhere for the team's franchise guy. Bogut is good enough to be a positive contributer on any type of team we want to put together, so there's no reason to get rid of him (unless it brings us back a franchise guy), but he obviously isn't the solution.

[paulpressey25]

Are you disagreeing with me PP? .

No. I'm agreeing with you.

It is a very demoralizing situation right now because I never really thought Bogut would regress this badly. I thought a 14ppg/11rpg/1.8bpg/2.5apg/.50%FG and .60FT% were locks this year.

But even his 12/9 numbers are problematic if he doesn't show up or is really winded in some games. At least with Magloire, you seemed to get the exact same numbers and effort every single game.

I do think though Bogut's numbers would be better if he had a big bruising PF next to him to protect him. A Charles Oakley type who could protect his fragile psyche when guys like Shaq beat on him. Or even an Anthony Mason in his prime. But that doesn't excuse Bogut for anything.

[unklchuk]

"Can you name some of the NBA guards who can do this? Who are these mythical creatures that you speak of?"

Overlooking the absolutely unavailables, I'd have liked to see Andre Miller on this team. I'm not a student of Miller's game but I've seen games where he had a mature touch and made things happen.

But I'm not advocating for a mythical PG.

I really want a leadership PG whose on-court "bucket" doesn't have holes in the bottom (like Ridnour's shooting) - working as part of an integrated team that is smart and active on offense. Movement, passing and spacing will generate more opportunities than the PG's actions alone.

[midranger]

I don't think we should be making major personnel moves to accommodate Andrew Bogut's offensive game.

[unklchuk]

"All I'm trying to say is that we should stop looking to Bogut to be our savior. Stop making excuses about how the guards aren't helping him unleash his talent, and stop scheming to get him more involved in the offense. Just let him be the average-to-good center that he is, and start looking elsewhere for the team's franchise guy. Bogut is good enough to be a positive contributer on any type of team we want to put together, so there's no reason to get rid of him (unless it brings us back a franchise guy), but he obviously isn't the solution."

I agree with the gist of this, so I won't quibble with the details - except to say that I'm certainly not blaming the guards for Bogut's oft weak play. I'm just stating my belief that Bogut needs his team to help him play better. For every "pound" of help he receives from teammates, I think Bogut will generate 2 pounds of better play. IMHO that's the way he works. His "engine" doesn't create productivity so much as it builds on what it's fed. (He's a follower.)

And if that's obscure or nonsense, sue me. It's Sunday. I've got coffee, a full belly, memories of Ingrid Jensen's horn, the Sunday NY Times, and transformative politics to read about. See ya' later...

[THE DINJ]

After all the grief Redd gets I've never have seen him check out of a game like Bogut has this season so far.

[ReasonablySober]

The contract is one issue. But the bigger one to me is Skiles. People were convinced before the season the CV would be the guy that couldn't play for Scott. Nobody asked themselves if a guy as weak minded as Bogut could, though. What do you think that benching did to this guy's psyche?

If we're going to play amateur psychologist and say it's his head and not his ability that has his play so completely screwed up, then the coaching should be at the forefront. Is Bogut mentally strong enough to play for a coach that holds his players accountable?

On that note, when can Bogut be traded? He's a poison pill player right now. Will he be BYC next season?

[Rockmaninoff]

dp

[BDUB_30]

Sessions shooting the ball more then ANYONE on the floor for both teams last night is just horrible for me .


he killed our ball movement single handedly ...so much of the shot clock just wasted with him dribbling around in cirlces , its crazy to me that skiles lets that go on ..

the precident is set , its ok to play wrong if youre hitting a couple baskets ..


im just really not to interested in watching yet another guard come into milwaukee and hijacking the offense to build up his contract worth ..its like a diffrent one every year that does it .

sessions playing to the whistle in a double digit loss ? WAY TO GO SESSIONS , YOU GOT YOUR 20 POINTS ! the 4th quarter of that game was like watching tj ford , ya know the year where he thought he was a scorer , the only diffrence is sessions actualy DOES score some of those .

skiles cant have it both way , he cant allow the offense to get broken down to where just one guy is dominated the ball and just let it go on if that one guy is being succsesful .. seriously , if were going to allow for entire quarters of games to be dominated by ONE guy dribble and shooting then i want to see RJ be that guy ..