Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
we as laker fans are fooling ourselves. i think the lakers would win but it would take six or seven. think about it,the cavs were able to take the celtics to seven games with lebron playing like utter crap...their defense and rebounding will give them a huge advantage over us. also people need to quit putting to much on gasol. being the leader of a team that had never won a playoff game is not that impressive. people act as if he and the grizz won 50 games every season. without kobe to attract most of the attention,neither pau,odom or bynum would be able to get off as much as they do...the cavs have alot of great parts...people say all they need are spot up shooters,but if you have a guy that dominates the ball and demands as much attention as lebron,really what more do you need? both guys are equally as important to their teams,lebron as great as he is is not good enough to take a team to 60 plus wins without any help as people claim...mo williams has done alot for lebron just like pau has done alot for kobe. lebron now has a guy who can erupt for forty,easily!
Only on realgm is 27,000 points, 5 rings, 1 rs mvp and 2 finals mvp considered overrated!
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Lakers win, no doubt.
With Kobe AND Lebron?
CAVS in 3.
Minutes.
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With Kobe AND Lebron?
CAVS in 3.
Minutes.
warning sent out for trolling
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- crazyeights
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Cavs in 3 minutes? Did they change the finals format again?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Lakers have the best player on the court by a wide margin. Odom (or Bynum if you start Odom) coming off the bench is better than anything the Cavs have coming off the bench by a wide margin (Smith). The only clear advantage the Cavs have is at PG, where Williams would have to create for himself and others more and see his percentages go down.
West is better than Sasha, but its about the same difference between Ariza and Szczerbiak... Bynum and Illgauskus are about the same, as ar Farmar/Gibson...
Lakers in 5 or 6
West is better than Sasha, but its about the same difference between Ariza and Szczerbiak... Bynum and Illgauskus are about the same, as ar Farmar/Gibson...
Lakers in 5 or 6
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- milesfides
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Net PER:
Lakers
PG: -3.3
SG: +9.5
SF: +0.8
PF: +1.2
C: +6.8
Cavs
PG: -1.7
SG: +3.6
SF: +11.4
PF: +4.1
C: +2.9
That's over the season. Some things make sense, but the playoffs frequently come down to matchups:
Frontcourt
Gasol was matched up with Z at center:
Gasol: 18, 12, 6, 1, 1, in 44 minutes
Ilguas: 22, 9, 2, 0, 2, in 34 minutes
Bynum was matched up with Varejao in an earlier game when Z was injured:
Bynum: 14, 6, 2, 0, 1 in 29 min
Varejao: 10, 12, 2, 1, 3 in 34 min
I think Z was more productive, efficient than Gasol when they were matched up against each other.
Varejao outplayed Bynum in their matchup.
While this can be surprising, since Gasol was touted as the Western Conf. player of the month recently, Bynum as a great up and coming player, I'm not too surprised. Bynum had been outplayed by the physical Perkins, strictly a role player, in past matchups, and Varejao is physical as well (and a flopper).
Z is a legit star big man, and both he and Gasol are more finesse big men, offensively talented. They could put up roughly similar numbers, although I would give the edge to Gasol simply because he seems to be able to stay on the floor longer, 38 min to Z's 31 min.
But overall, it could very well be evenly matched, as it has in the past.
Wing:
Odom would be matched up with a combination of Pavlovic and Szczerbiak. The problem here is that Odom has struggled mightily at times playing with both Gasol and Bynum. The paint is clogged, meaning Odom's primary offensive weapon (driving) is tempered, and he's going to rely increasingly on his perimeter shot. He may come off the bench, but in the Finals, that's only going to help so much since rotations are usually shortened. Considering Odom has struggled as a facilitator in the triangle offense, I'd be very worried about having him the primary ballhandler.
On the other hand, Pavlovic and Szczerbiak may have a seamless transition to bigger roles. They're both great shooters, which would work well in a halfcourt post up game with Z, or off penetration by Williams and West. Pavlovic is also a terrific perimeter defender, and he will be committed to forcing Odom to overdribble or become a jumpshooter.
As a Laker, Odom has done his best work as a frontcourt player. If we try to bring him off the bench, his role would cost Bynum's contributions.
Backcourt:
Williams and West would hurt our team. There's no other way to put it. Williams would consistently outproduce any combination of our PGs, and he'd also break down the defenses and get his teammates involved. Fish simply doesn't have the quickness to stay with him, and Farmar was 1-7 in his one game against the Cavs.
Vujacic actually had a good game 4-5 against the Cavs, but Delonte West was not in that game. I doubt Vujacic could stay with West either, a guy who's incredibly active and surprisingly deadly with his perimeter shot to accompany a quick first step.
Simply put, we cannot guard these guys. They are multi-faceted, multitalented, athletic ballers. Fish and Vujacic are one-dimensional, earnest yet limited. These would be the biggest mismatches in the game.
Which is why I think Ariza would end up at SG, to use his length and defensive instincts against West. But this hurts our offense, since Ariza is best at an uptempo game, and with Bynum and Gasol, he'd be mostly a jumpshooter. Since he's a marginal ballhandler, that really reduces the efficiency of our offense.
If the Lakers win, they're going to win ugly. The two-man game between Kobe and Gasol will just not be there. Triangle offense? Uh-oh. Fisher will get more shots, and he's been notoriously inconsistent in the playoffs. Odom and Ariza are just unremarkable shooters. A larger role for Vujacic may be a good thing, or a terrible thing. We'd have the edge in rebounding, but we would need more than that - we'd have to dominate the boards because there's going to be a lot of missed jumpshots. We'll have to force the ball into the post, hopefully cause foul trouble for the Cavs, and just try to dictate the tempo of the game and beat ugly into the Cavs.
The cavs will have to win based on their guard play, up and down game, and shooting. Fortunately for them, they're already built for that. To their credit, they're an incredibly active team, they hustle, they're feisty.
If I had to guess, the difference-maker will be Odom. And he'll have to face his demons, the ghosts of his past, the skeletons in his closet, the man in the mirror, and his ability to overcome his particular underlying struggle with the Lakers, the offense, mental toughness, etc., will be the deciding factor in this hypothetical scenario. It might be the deciding factor in the real series as well.
Lakers
PG: -3.3
SG: +9.5
SF: +0.8
PF: +1.2
C: +6.8
Cavs
PG: -1.7
SG: +3.6
SF: +11.4
PF: +4.1
C: +2.9
That's over the season. Some things make sense, but the playoffs frequently come down to matchups:
Frontcourt
Gasol was matched up with Z at center:
Gasol: 18, 12, 6, 1, 1, in 44 minutes
Ilguas: 22, 9, 2, 0, 2, in 34 minutes
Bynum was matched up with Varejao in an earlier game when Z was injured:
Bynum: 14, 6, 2, 0, 1 in 29 min
Varejao: 10, 12, 2, 1, 3 in 34 min
I think Z was more productive, efficient than Gasol when they were matched up against each other.
Varejao outplayed Bynum in their matchup.
While this can be surprising, since Gasol was touted as the Western Conf. player of the month recently, Bynum as a great up and coming player, I'm not too surprised. Bynum had been outplayed by the physical Perkins, strictly a role player, in past matchups, and Varejao is physical as well (and a flopper).
Z is a legit star big man, and both he and Gasol are more finesse big men, offensively talented. They could put up roughly similar numbers, although I would give the edge to Gasol simply because he seems to be able to stay on the floor longer, 38 min to Z's 31 min.
But overall, it could very well be evenly matched, as it has in the past.
Wing:
Odom would be matched up with a combination of Pavlovic and Szczerbiak. The problem here is that Odom has struggled mightily at times playing with both Gasol and Bynum. The paint is clogged, meaning Odom's primary offensive weapon (driving) is tempered, and he's going to rely increasingly on his perimeter shot. He may come off the bench, but in the Finals, that's only going to help so much since rotations are usually shortened. Considering Odom has struggled as a facilitator in the triangle offense, I'd be very worried about having him the primary ballhandler.
On the other hand, Pavlovic and Szczerbiak may have a seamless transition to bigger roles. They're both great shooters, which would work well in a halfcourt post up game with Z, or off penetration by Williams and West. Pavlovic is also a terrific perimeter defender, and he will be committed to forcing Odom to overdribble or become a jumpshooter.
As a Laker, Odom has done his best work as a frontcourt player. If we try to bring him off the bench, his role would cost Bynum's contributions.
Backcourt:
Williams and West would hurt our team. There's no other way to put it. Williams would consistently outproduce any combination of our PGs, and he'd also break down the defenses and get his teammates involved. Fish simply doesn't have the quickness to stay with him, and Farmar was 1-7 in his one game against the Cavs.
Vujacic actually had a good game 4-5 against the Cavs, but Delonte West was not in that game. I doubt Vujacic could stay with West either, a guy who's incredibly active and surprisingly deadly with his perimeter shot to accompany a quick first step.
Simply put, we cannot guard these guys. They are multi-faceted, multitalented, athletic ballers. Fish and Vujacic are one-dimensional, earnest yet limited. These would be the biggest mismatches in the game.
Which is why I think Ariza would end up at SG, to use his length and defensive instincts against West. But this hurts our offense, since Ariza is best at an uptempo game, and with Bynum and Gasol, he'd be mostly a jumpshooter. Since he's a marginal ballhandler, that really reduces the efficiency of our offense.
If the Lakers win, they're going to win ugly. The two-man game between Kobe and Gasol will just not be there. Triangle offense? Uh-oh. Fisher will get more shots, and he's been notoriously inconsistent in the playoffs. Odom and Ariza are just unremarkable shooters. A larger role for Vujacic may be a good thing, or a terrible thing. We'd have the edge in rebounding, but we would need more than that - we'd have to dominate the boards because there's going to be a lot of missed jumpshots. We'll have to force the ball into the post, hopefully cause foul trouble for the Cavs, and just try to dictate the tempo of the game and beat ugly into the Cavs.
The cavs will have to win based on their guard play, up and down game, and shooting. Fortunately for them, they're already built for that. To their credit, they're an incredibly active team, they hustle, they're feisty.
If I had to guess, the difference-maker will be Odom. And he'll have to face his demons, the ghosts of his past, the skeletons in his closet, the man in the mirror, and his ability to overcome his particular underlying struggle with the Lakers, the offense, mental toughness, etc., will be the deciding factor in this hypothetical scenario. It might be the deciding factor in the real series as well.
“OH! Caruso parachutes in! You cannot stop him - you can only hope to contain him!” -Kevin Harlan, LAL-GSW 4/4/19
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- milesfides
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Not to discredit Pau, but he played with a pretty good squad in Memphis, courtesy of Jerry West. Guys like Eddie Jones, Bobby Jackson, Mike Miller, James Posey, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, Earl Watson, Jason Williams, Lorenzen Wright
“OH! Caruso parachutes in! You cannot stop him - you can only hope to contain him!” -Kevin Harlan, LAL-GSW 4/4/19
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- hermes
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
it will have to be a team effort for the lakers, because they would not have kobe to fall back on, no one else has proven to take a team on their backs and win a game or series
if our guards aren't hitting their shots, cavs can just collapse on the bigs in the lane
it would be at least a 6 game series
if our guards aren't hitting their shots, cavs can just collapse on the bigs in the lane
it would be at least a 6 game series
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
This is a garbage question.. because neither team will get to the finals without Kobe or Lebron..
The question should be Lakers v/s cavs with all their superstars in a game of 7...
The answer lies in the inconsistent way our bench is playing right now , i would say i am worried right now.. Been months since we last saw Sasha , farmar and Luke do much.. Add to this if kobe has an off game.. we could be in bad trouble..
The question should be Lakers v/s cavs with all their superstars in a game of 7...
The answer lies in the inconsistent way our bench is playing right now , i would say i am worried right now.. Been months since we last saw Sasha , farmar and Luke do much.. Add to this if kobe has an off game.. we could be in bad trouble..
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Wtf Lakers win this easily, esp. if Bynum is back.
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Luke if healthy is not the problem. Jordan and Sasha are when they're not shooting well.
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Re; the question on hand, I'll have to start a Lakers line up as
Odom/Farmar
Fisher/Sasha
Walton/Ariza
Gasol/Powell
Bynum/Mbenga
Odom and Luke will be playmakers and the offense will run through Pau.
Odom/Farmar
Fisher/Sasha
Walton/Ariza
Gasol/Powell
Bynum/Mbenga
Odom and Luke will be playmakers and the offense will run through Pau.
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- Dr Aki
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
sounds good but doesnt spread the floor enough
that lineup screws up spacing just one rung less than if fisher was replaced by ariza, especially if cleveland decide to get someone to stick to fisher like glue
that lineup screws up spacing just one rung less than if fisher was replaced by ariza, especially if cleveland decide to get someone to stick to fisher like glue
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
lakers would sweep or win 4-1
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Akiho wrote:sounds good but doesnt spread the floor enough
that lineup screws up spacing just one rung less than if fisher was replaced by ariza, especially if cleveland decide to get someone to stick to fisher like glue
Well.. if they don't have Bron, that means Wally will start at SF, then I'd replace Luke with Sasha but with Odom, Gasol and Bynum on the floor, thats 3 guys that can demand a double team with the ball in their hands and it'll get wide open jumpers for Fish and Sasha.
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- Dr Aki
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
j-far wrote:Akiho wrote:sounds good but doesnt spread the floor enough
that lineup screws up spacing just one rung less than if fisher was replaced by ariza, especially if cleveland decide to get someone to stick to fisher like glue
Well.. if they don't have Bron, that means Wally will start at SF, then I'd replace Luke with Sasha but with Odom, Gasol and Bynum on the floor, thats 3 guys that can demand a double team with the ball in their hands and it'll get wide open jumpers for Fish and Sasha.
except those 3 guys all demand a double team down low, all in the same area of the court, you could still overload the strong side and force the lakers into poor jump shots, especially if the ball is in lamar's hands. as good a slasher as lamar is, he simply doesnt have the consistent enough mid-range game to spread the floor
either lamar plays the point all game (bad choice!) and the lakers have to revert to a more traditional PG-oriented offense filled with PnRs and stagger screens and whatever teams like cleveland, san antonio and boston do
its not just a simple question of maths or else bynum/gasol/lamar/kobe requires 8 players to defend, thats obviously untrue because they can easily be defended by packing the paint. you know this is the reason phil hasnt been playing odom at small forward all season
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
we may not necessarily need to start Bynum. What's wrong with
Fisher
Sasha
Walton
Odom
Gasol
Bring Farmar, Ariza and Bynum off the bench. Our first unit would compete well, our second unit would dominate. DUde, lebron leads the Cavs in pts, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks. he IS the cavs. Those guys play a series without him they are NOT winning. I think Kobe has played the least in 4th quarters for any starter in the NBA. We rotate so much with our bench we're pretty used to playing without Kobe. They're biggest assets would be Z, Varejo and Mo.
I don't know, don't want to overestimate the Lakers, but we've had more players of the game than they have and do supposedly have one of the best benches in the league. Lakers.
PS I think Mo Williams would have this mindset that he NEEDS to win the games for the Cavs, which would cause them to lose, and they have no players that would call for a double team. We've got Gasol and Bynum, possibly even Odom.
Fisher
Sasha
Walton
Odom
Gasol
Bring Farmar, Ariza and Bynum off the bench. Our first unit would compete well, our second unit would dominate. DUde, lebron leads the Cavs in pts, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks. he IS the cavs. Those guys play a series without him they are NOT winning. I think Kobe has played the least in 4th quarters for any starter in the NBA. We rotate so much with our bench we're pretty used to playing without Kobe. They're biggest assets would be Z, Varejo and Mo.
I don't know, don't want to overestimate the Lakers, but we've had more players of the game than they have and do supposedly have one of the best benches in the league. Lakers.
PS I think Mo Williams would have this mindset that he NEEDS to win the games for the Cavs, which would cause them to lose, and they have no players that would call for a double team. We've got Gasol and Bynum, possibly even Odom.
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
It would be closer than some people people are trying to make it out.
The Cavs would have a low post player in Z and two dirty work players in Wallace and Sideshow bob. They have two guards who can create a shot for themselves in West and Williams.
The Lakers would have the better front court but the back court would be heavy in favor of the Cavs. The Lakers would have no guards who can create a shot without Kobe.
Fisher? Yikes. Sasha? No comment.
I'd take the Lakers but not by much.
The Cavs would have a low post player in Z and two dirty work players in Wallace and Sideshow bob. They have two guards who can create a shot for themselves in West and Williams.
The Lakers would have the better front court but the back court would be heavy in favor of the Cavs. The Lakers would have no guards who can create a shot without Kobe.
Fisher? Yikes. Sasha? No comment.
I'd take the Lakers but not by much.
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
- Jajwanda
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Our most hated player in Jordan Farmar would probably be the best bet to create for himself and he just doesn't have much to offer.
Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
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Re: Kobeless Lakers Vs Lebronless Cavs in 7 game series?
Jajwanda wrote:Our most hated player in Jordan Farmar would probably be the best bet to create for himself and he just doesn't have much to offer.
Considering his poor bball iq and overall lack of judgement, that's a very scary thought.