Kareem's Defense

[JordansBulls]

Im kicking myself for missing this argument in its infancy, Ive always maintained that KAJ was an overrated defender. Id go as far as saying hes overrated period (I still have him in my top2-3) but people see his accolades and automatically assume hes better than anyone who ever lived.

Who else do you put ahead of him? I would say only MJ and Russell have cases over him.

I'd say Magic, Bird and Duncan have cases over him as well.

Over Kareem? why is this?

[Minge]

Interview with Kareem, 1987: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgTbJpjzQfI (@ 4:00)

@ 4:44: Do you do anything differently, now let's say, than you did do in the regular-season?

Kareem: "I worked on my shot, a little bit more, just a few things, the little things that help you play more effectively. I have to remember to--keep my hands up, keep my arms out--so people can't get in and box me out by getting pressure on my body, just the little, tiny little, things that don't seem like much, but enable you to make the play at the right time."

Aside from an 8'-12' jumpshot instead of driving to the rim, I was curious as to what were those "little things" Kareem mentioned. My thoughts were "holding" and "positioning".





In the 1987 broadcast, Jon McGlocklin (one of my favorite commentators, btw), who played with Kareem in Milwaukee, mentioned Kareem did not like to set picks, that, he would turn sideways, defeating the pick--Chick, who detailed each highlighted play, says, had Kareem turned his body, he would have been called for blocking; eg. HERE.

[Soul Patch]

You tell your ole man to try hauling Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

[bastillon]

Kareem missed 17 games in 75 and 20 games in 78... that provides us some valuable data:

75:

Code: Select all

      total    off     def

w/o   -4.59   93.18   97.76
with  +1.46  102.62  101.15

total - pt differential with/without Kareem
offense - pts scored with/without
def - pts allowed with/without

it's not the same as DRtg so pace could've been a factor... but still. team allowed LESS (3.4) pts without KAJ... significantly less. it's amazing how they sucked without Kareem offensively though (9.5 pts worse!).

78

Code: Select all

      total    off     def

w/o   -1.45  105.25  106.70
with  +4.00  111.92  107.92

a very similar story. KAJ missed games, team allowing LESS pts (1.2) but playing way better offense (6.7).

now that being said, there was also 75 trade:

75 Bucks (w/ KAJ) 19.4 DWS
76 Bucks (Elmore Smith) 19.0 DWS

75 Lakers (Elmore Smith) 14.7 DWS
76 Lakers (KAJ) 19.1 DWS

again, average DWS is 20.5.

you could argue that 75 Bucks weren't the best example because KAJ didn't play the full season... but when he did, his team was actually allowing MORE pts.

there's also Kareem's rookie year:

Bucks 69 - 14.6 DWS
Bucks 70 - 20.7 DWS

a better improvement, but still not all-time impressive. it bears mention, though, that these teams were completely different: of almost 20000 mins in 69 only 12000 were played by 69 players in 70. what this means, in simplier words, is that 40% of team was different. that's quite a major turnaround. it's hard to compare them.

but I stand by what I was arguing earlier - KAJ is overrated defensively. he was able to make a positive impact, but nowhere near all-time level and he's considered some all-time defender by many on this board. when he was missing games in 75 and 78, teams sucked offensively, but actually played BETTER defense. when he was changing teams in 75 neither Bucks nor Lakers felt a dramatic change in defensive efficiency. finally, even in his rookie year, there was no major defensive impact, considering all the changes outside of him (which were clearly positive - Dandridge, more health, stability on the roster - rarely changing starting lineups).

I don't see any compelling evidence to think that KAJ was a top-10 defender and actually he might not make the top-15 either.

[bastillon]

I'm waiting for an answer from Kareem's supporters. there's a lot of evidence in this thread against his allegedly all-time defense. T-Sherkin ? TLAF ? Penbeast ? Doc ? could someone explain the results or interpret them ?

[hourockman]

In the 1987 broadcast, Jon McGlocklin (one of my favorite commentators, btw), who played with Kareem in Milwaukee, mentioned Kareem did not like to set picks, that, he would turn sideways, defeating the pick--Chick, who detailed each highlighted play, says, had Kareem turned his body, he would have been called for blocking; eg. HERE.

I can't speak on McGlocklin's take of his play in Milwaukee (if he was alluding to 70s Kareem instead of 1987 Kareem), but if you're considering the 1988 version of Kareem, the fact that he was older than dirt at that point must be mentioned to make this fair. MANY aspects of his overall game were hit or miss from 87-89 (naturally). By 88, he would literally cower w/ his arms tucked into his chest when someone like Karl Malone was coming at him. I personally believe that he was a lot more inclined to hold his ground a few years before. But no, he was never the type to take many charges. He did not like even moderately rough play AGAINST him, that's for sure. He was trying to fight w/ other bigs after they hacked him til the very end of his career.

I have a load of old Laker games from the 80s (including the early 80s). This may sound like a weird take, but I think the older, bulkier Kareem was more effective as a paint plug than the younger, wiry Kareem, just by the mere virtue that he was probably 30 lbs heavier.

I never thought Shaq put in the work necessary to be a better defensive player (he once told Jackson that he never played physical 1:1 D when he was coming up because he would pick up fouls). However, his mere presence was a deterrence for smaller guys and his size/strength made it difficult for a non-superstar big to score on him repeatedly. That's the kind of presence I think Kareem had, along w/ him having a height advantage over most centers. He was a load for opposing centers to score on even if he wasn't Bill Russell. The only center who used to eat his lunch 1:1 in the 80s was Moses Malone. The only other teams that could beat the 80s Lakers had a twin tower effect (McHale/Parish, Akeem/Sampson).

[lorak]

I'm waiting for an answer from Kareem's supporters. there's a lot of evidence in this thread against his allegedly all-time defense. T-Sherkin ? TLAF ? Penbeast ? Doc ? could someone explain the results or interpret them ?

+1

[writerman]

Kareem was a pretty good defender...he had trouble with big, physical opponents like Wilt and Nate Thurmond. I submit that any player you could name would have to sweat against those guys, so that's no knock on Kareem...

Bastillon, as usual, is on the wrong side of history...