When Did Kobe Pass Dr.J On Your Rankings And Why/How?

GSP · Post #1 » by **GSP** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:48 pm

I think this is interesting here. Peak/intangibles go to Doc but Bryant has ridiculous longevity for a 2guard and a very good prime and underrated peak imo. How do you see it?

The Infamous1 · Post #2 » by **The Infamous1** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:52 pm

When I realized he was a flat out better player( around 2002-2003). After the 3 straight finals and back to back titles it wasn't close anymore. I do respect the hell out of dr J, but when your Comparing NBA careers its Bryant easily

And peak Goes to Bryant also.

Kobe at his peak was

32 PPG 58% TS/5 APG/Anchoring the 7th rated offense with all NBA 1st team Defense. That's incredible

Kobe 3 year run in the postseason from 08-10

2008
30.1 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.6 apg 48fg% 30%3P 81%FT 58TS% 51eFG%

2009
30.2 ppg 5.3 rpg 5.5 apg 46fg% 35%3P 88%FT 56TS% 49eFG%

2010
29.2 ppg 6.0 rpg 5.5 apg 46fg% 37%3P 84%FT 57TS% 51eFG%

Legendary

Athanatos · Post #3 » by **Athanatos** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 12:29 am

Perhaps after his 3rd championship which made Kobe a Top 30 player in NBA history. This could have already been sufficient. His stellar individual performances in the following seasons were sufficient to put him into the Top 20 - and that's where he definitively surpassed Erving -, and by winning two more championships, he finally cracked the Top 10.

JingoWolf · Post #4 » by **JingoWolf** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 12:33 am

Kobe is overrated for me in this kind of comparison.

He was not even the best player on the majority of his Championship teams.
Yeah he won 5 Rings but that had far more to due with his incredibly lucky career circumstances then because his pure talent was above someone like Dr. J or Jerry West.

I can't imagine the Doctor or West only winning 5 Rings if they had Prime Shaq arguably the MDE for 8 years and then Prime Gasol/Odom and good roleplayers + PJ for another 4 years in their Prime.
Thats something I just cannot ignore or not hold against Bryant.

You can still argue for the Doctor over him although I don't.

Kobe, J, Oscar and West are all in the 10-15 range for me and which order you rank them in is purely by preference/opinion.

I have seen some very compelling arguments showing that West/J should be ranked higher and also some from the other camp.

Kobe's longevity is not as great as some may think since he only really became "Kobe" in 2001 and was already out of his Prime by 2010.
He also wasn't a Kareem/Shaq/Jordan type player who consistently performed well every year in the playoffs.
I say he was "Kobe" from 01-09 but its not like he was great every year... plenty of road bumps and valleys.

AnaheimRoyale · Post #5 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 4:22 am

He didn't, because he is a less impactful (read: worse) player over his career.

TheKingOfVa360 · Post #6 » by **TheKingOfVa360** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 4:27 am

He hasn't and he won't because Dr J was better. Kobe might be my 2nd favorite player of all time (after Penny) but DR J was the face of the ABA and a legend in the NBA. He won like 3 straight ABA MVPs and 2 ABA titles. The came to the NBA at the end of his prime and won a title and MVP.

TheXFactor · Post #7 » by **TheXFactor** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 4:51 am

Kobe's on a different level.

Dr J had flare, but was no match to Kobe's game and skill set.

Mo26 · Post #8 » by **Mo26** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 5:07 am

Doc doesn't have a better peak. Kobe 03/06/07/08 is better than version of Doc "I can't shoot past 15 feet" Erving. And ABA doesn't count.

Mo26 · Post #9 » by **Mo26** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 5:16 am

Kobe peak: 35/5/5/2/9% TOV rate (10th lowest in league)/28+ PER (tied #1)/15+ WS/14.5 APM(#2 in league)/+21 +/-(#1, highest ever recorded)/5.8 offensive RAPM (#1, highest ever recorded)/27 40+ point games/8 50+ point games/10.2 PPG foruth Q average (highest ever)/2 40+ point months/

Kobe 2001: 29/6/5/2/25 PER reg season with 1st Team All-Defense. 29/7/6/2/25 PER/#1 in WS/#1 WS48 on a 15-1 team in the post-season.
Kobe 2003: 30/7/6/2/55%/26+ PER with 1st Team All-Defense
Kobe 2007: 32/6/5/2/58% TS/26+ PER
Kobe 2008: 28+/6+/5+/2/58% TS followed by 30/6/6/2/58% TS in the playoffs over 23 games
Kobe 2009: 27/5/5/2/9% TOV (7th lowest in league) followed by 30/6/6/2/57% TS/27 PER in playoffs over 23 games.

Just a very good prime? Try one of the best ever. :lol:

AnaheimRoyale · Post #10 » by **AnaheimRoyale** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 5:33 am

Dr J was bigger, stronger, probhably more athletic, had longer arms, the ability to palm a ball, better body control in mid air... plus, you know, he played better on a basketball court, so there's that.

Josephpaul · Post #11 » by **Josephpaul** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 6:07 am

Mo26 wrote:Kobe peak: 35/5/5/2/9% TOV rate (10th lowest in league)/28+ PER (tied #1)/15+ WS/14.5 APM(#2 in league)/+21 +/-(#1, highest ever recorded)/5.8 offensive RAPM (#1, highest ever recorded)/27 40+ point games/8 50+ point games/10.2 PPG foruth Q average (highest ever)/2 40+ point months/

Kobe 2001: 29/6/5/2/25 PER reg season with 1st Team All-Defense. 29/7/6/2/25 PER/#1 in WS/#1 WS48 on a 15-1 team in the post-season.
Kobe 2003: 30/7/6/2/55%/26+ PER with 1st Team All-Defense
Kobe 2007: 32/6/5/2/58% TS/26+ PER
Kobe 2008: 28+/6+/5+/2/58% TS followed by 30/6/6/2/58% TS in the playoffs over 23 games
Kobe 2009: 27/5/5/2/9% TOV (7th lowest in league) followed by 30/6/6/2/57% TS/27 PER in playoffs over 23 games.

Just a very good prime? Try one of the best ever.

JingoWolf · Post #12 » by **JingoWolf** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 6:23 am

What is the point of posting those stats?

It doesn't change the fact that Dr. J was a far better defender and athlete.
ABA Erving was probably a better scorer then Kobe ever was.

76 Erving was better then any version of Kobe.
Kobe never had that sort of dominance.

Kobe's 06 regular season isn't even a Top 3 offensive season for a wing player for this decade and that was his absolute best scoring season.
He couldn't even lead his supporting cast out of the first round that year despite having a 20/11/5 Odom at his side.
I take that as a pretty big black mark on his career especially since that was supposed to be his Peak.

09 Lebron
09 Wade
03 TMac
Were all easily better offensive seasons.

Comments on the season you listed.
2001 - not even close to being the best player on his own team.
2003 - not even close to being the best player on his own team + choked against the Spurs which is the reason why they failed that year in the post season.
2007 - couldn't lead team past first round of the playoffs
2008 - choked in the Finals.

Putting up gaudy stats is nice but when your a sidekick or choke in the playoffs it kind of makes it all less impressive.
Kobe also tended to statpad against weaker teams ala Wilt.
I just can't see Erving choking the way Kobe did with some of those ridiculously stacked supporting casts.

Kobe is a great player and you can argue for him over the Doctor but posting those stats is not the way to do it.

BTW no offense but Kobe's Prime/Peak is not even close to being Top 10 All-Time.
Calling it one of the best ever is a bit of a stretch.

Not Bias · Post #13 » by **Not Bias** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 1:44 pm

To me Kobe passed Dr J after he won his MVP. It was a matter of time before Kobe would leapfrog him in my rankings. Kobe is a better basketball player and his longevity is superior.

Post #14 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 2:32 pm

For me it was '09. There had always been doubts about how much of the previous Laker success was Shaq and how much was Kobe (Kobe's numbers weren't that impressive during that period either). Then Kobe put up huge numbers without great team success. Finally, in 08 he took his team to the finals then came back the next year and won it all with Pau Gasol, who is a good but not great player, as his second banana. That was when I thought Kobe had caught up and roughly equalled Doc and since I usually give modern players the benefit of a tie all else being equal, that was when I would guess he passed him on my all-time list -- though it may have taken me a couple of months to admit it.

SDChargers#1 · Post #15 » by **SDChargers#1** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 2:45 pm

People do realize that the year Dr. J won his title in the NBA, he wasn't even the best player on his own team as well.

Dr. J averaged a very good 21/7/4 on 56.6% TS

Moses Malone averaged 25/15 on 57.8% TS

Then in the playoffs,

Dr. J averaged 18/8/3 on 50% TS

Moses Malone averaged 26/16 on 59% TS

Dr. J wasn't even as good as Kobe during the first title year in that season. Yet people give Kobe **** for playing with Shaq.

MisterWestside · Post #16 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 2:55 pm

Dr. J wasn't even as good as Kobe during the first title year in that season. Yet people give Kobe **** for playing with Shaq.

There needs to be a rule here for people not to post per game averages/TS% in player comparisons without adjusting for era and role. Yes, Erving's playoffs was comparable to 00 playoff Kobe - Kobe a little better on offense, Erving on defense.

To the topic: I got Kobe ahead by Erving but not by much. I would rather take Erving in his prime, and Erving had some better seasons 30 and older than Kobe. Kobe gets the nod overall for his consistency.

RebelWithACause · Post #17 » by **RebelWithACause** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 2:58 pm

JingoWolf wrote:Kobe is overrated for me in this kind of comparison.

He was not even the best player on the majority of his Championship teams.
Yeah he won 5 Rings but that had far more to due with his incredibly lucky career circumstances then because his pure talent was above someone like Dr. J or Jerry West.

I can't imagine the Doctor or West only winning 5 Rings if they had Prime Shaq arguably the MDE for 8 years and then Prime Gasol/Odom and good roleplayers + PJ for another 4 years in their Prime.
Thats something I just cannot ignore or not hold against Bryant.

You can still argue for the Doctor over him although I don't.

Kobe, J, Oscar and West are all in the 10-15 range for me and which order you rank them in is purely by preference/opinion.

I have seen some very compelling arguments showing that West/J should be ranked higher and also some from the other camp.

Kobe's longevity is not as great as some may think since he only really became "Kobe" in 2001 and was already out of his Prime by 2010.
He also wasn't a Kareem/Shaq/Jordan type player who consistently performed well every year in the playoffs.
I say he was "Kobe" from 01-09 but its not like he was great every year... plenty of road bumps and valleys.

I really enjoy reading your post most of the time, but i feel like you are too hard on Kobe, no one ever won a chip without good supporting casts.
Tho playing with prime shaq, i could think of several guards that would have won chips in the early 00s, i agree on that.
There are not too many guys that would have won that back to back championships in 09 and 10!
What separates Kobe from most of the other guys is longevity and fundamentals and maybe that elite one on one skills
For me Kobe is top 10 all time, where is he on your list, just curious?

tclg · Post #18 » by **tclg** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 3:03 pm

That year that doc won the title in the NBA he was only taking about 16 shots a game. That team was also stacked.

JingoWolf · Post #19 » by **JingoWolf** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 5:47 pm

ElMaestro90 wrote:I really enjoy reading your post most of the time, but i feel like you are too hard on Kobe, no one ever won a chip without good supporting casts.
Tho playing with prime shaq, i could think of several guards that would have won chips in the early 00s, i agree on that.
There are not too many guys that would have won that back to back championships in 09 and 10!
What separates Kobe from most of the other guys is longevity and fundamentals and maybe that elite one on one skills
For me Kobe is top 10 all time, where is he on your list, just curious?

Thanks bro.
Yeah I can be hard on Kobe but I do respect him and his place in history and he is a true legend and one of at the worst 10-20 greatest players ever.

I give him due for winning in 09 and 2010 but people don't give Gasol his credit either.
Gasol in 2010 was a 20 / 11 / 3.5 / 2bpg on 60%TS player... that is no joke, he had a very good supporting cast those years.
2010 Gasol was significantly better then 00 and 02 Kobe.

2009 is one year I give him full credit for without hesitation because he had a GOAT run and was clearly the best player for his team.

I rank him currently at #11 right after Jerry West.

MisterWestside · Post #20 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Jun 1, 2012 6:11 pm

JingoWolf wrote:I give him due for winning in 09 and 2010 but people don't give Gasol his credit either.
Gasol in 2010 was a 20 / 11 / 3.5 / 2bpg on 60%TS player... that is no joke, he had a very good supporting cast those years.
2010 Gasol was significantly better then 00 and 02 Kobe.

2009 is one year I give him full credit for without hesitation because he had a GOAT run and was clearly the best player for his team.

I rank him currently at #11 right after Jerry West.

My sentiments exactly. By the way, Gasol in 2009 was no slouch either. He arguably had a better regular season, and was near Kobe's production in the playoffs - Kobe gets the offensive nod, Gasol with defense. And Gasol was still a darn productive on offense.