Any trade ideas?

[Jamaaliver]

The ATLFAN:

It's not worth the time to even try and debate that guy. He is physically unable to even acknowledge that others may have opinions different from his own.

Which, of course, would make him a woman.

I really like the toughness and rebounding that JJ Hickson is bringing this year. He's been playing center for POR at only 6'9" and is avg a double-double on 56% shooting. (He was nominee to replace Smoove if we'd traded him over the summer.) His PER is higher than any player on our team.

I also am a big fan of Jason Thompson. I've only seen him play a handful of times, but he used to backup Cousins and is now a starter at PF for the Kings. He's avg 11 ppg and 8 rpg in around 30 minutes. Also shooting over 50% and has had some big games against teams without a true center. He'd be great backup and even a solid starter at Center.

Finally, Corey Brewer has really impressed me. I think he'd be a good pickup to start at SF, as you guys have stated before.

[Jamaaliver]

I think this is a great time to pick up a great talent with upside. Williams could be a good fit here..

Yeah, I'm a big proponent of buying low and selling high.

D Williams has alot of upside, and with his lack of production his stock is probably as low as it's going to get.

If the cost is minimal, I'd trade for D-Will2 in a heartbeat.

MIN is where good young players go to die.

[Hawk4Playoffs]

So the census is that we would accept Derrick Williams for Anthony Morrow and John Jenkins?

[Jamaaliver]

So the census is that we would accept Derrick Williams for Anthony Morrow and John Jenkins?

That's a tough one. I think Jenkins has a chance to be a special shooter in this league and an eventual starter. (He's just that good.)

Do we view Williams as a future starter? Can he co-exist in a frontcourt with AL & Josh?

I'd still probably do it, but hesitantly. And we'd have to commit to developing Williams. Not just stashing him on the bench and letting him rot. (Looking at you L Drew.)

[Jamaaliver]

One last trade target:

Pau Gasol. I know I'll get blasted, but I think he provides specific skills that we can use in spades. Post scoring, interior passing, a true seven footer to guard opposing centers.

He's struggling now, and I'm not sure I'd trade Josh for him. But his resume speaks for itself.
Individual success, team success.

My philosophy has always been to sell stock at its highest, and buy at its lowest. Pau's stock is the lowest it's ever been. But he's still only 31, and brings a wealth of big game experience.

[Geaux_Hawks]

So the census is that we would accept Derrick Williams for Anthony Morrow and John Jenkins?

Morrow and a pick should suffice. I think Harris + a pick for Ridnour & Williams could be good for us. That saves a shooter in Morrow and adds another at the point.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Williams was over-hyped due to one good NCAA run and being in a terrible draft class. He is highly overpaid and it would be foolish to dump Jenkins for him. I would much rather have Ivan at around 1 million backing up the 3/4 than Williams with his bloated contract.

[theatlfan]

Listen I'm not really invested enough in this matter to really tolerate your sensitivity over alleged insults no matter how flowery written it may all be. Fact is if you are going to create a list and continually add to said list and at the end of said list the overwhelming majority of examples fit more with a current example then alas, the few that do not are thus in my mind exceptions. Rather simple, if 75%-80% followed the same course as a current example then I can very easily establish that as the prevailing trend. If you want to focus on the 20-25% of that sample and somehow attribute that to being more definitive of the whole then be my guest, it's your prerogative but alas again, I'm sure you'll find this as a poorly veiled insult. I for one am not invested enough in a hypothetical trade idea to delve deep into the specific circumstances that influenced the majority of those players averaging only 20 minutes in their first few seasons under a specific coach. All I know is that at a glance, only 3 stand out from what I'm currently seeing with Williams.

OK, so you don't want to use proper statistics, so instead, you decide to cut the entire population here into two sample - 1 that was all top 5-10 picks (the exceptions minus Derrick Williams) and 1 that mid-to-late 1sts (earliest was Peja @ 14 who doesn't fit your description - but whatever) and 2nd rounders. Most would argue that this would say that Derrick Williams actually produces as much as those later picks and then bring out the stats to prove it - which they do. Instead your argument is that the poor young player isn't gifted minutes over players who are simply producing more... Really?!?!

We can play this game forever, we can walk back just another draft and make note of college sophomores and juniors such as Evan Turner, Wesley Johnson, Ekpe Udoh, Al-Farouq Aminu, Gordon Hayward/Alec Burks, Cole Aldrich, Patrick Patterson, Ed Davis and Larry Sanders struggling to make any appreciable impact until their 3rd seasons if that. It has nothing to do with him being "the man" and having to reduce his role. You are using examples of players that are utilizing their exact skillset from college in the pros or at the minimum filling in at the same position that they played in college. Why the fact his role and position is already being occupied by a player by the name of Kevin Love is being omitted I have no idea. It's as if his present circumstance has zero meaning to you as you are railing against him for failing to reinvent himself as an entirely different type of player than what he was in school.

If the argument boils down to looking at prospects without using any statistics, then we'll never get to an actual decent conclusion here. The people who postulated this have much more experience than I and from how disjointed these arguments are, I'm sure you as well. It'd be an interesting point to come to some conclusion on, but since I know this could be a sticky fact against your argument, it's really pointless to have any discussion on it.

For one, he can succeed at what he knows here in Atlanta. His skillset is that of a back to basket player who can also face up and attack from 15 feet and in, something neither Al or Josh are willing or capable of doing consistently. Unlike in Minnesota where (you're going to hate this) Love's inferior to a SF's measurables (6'7.75", 6'11.25" wingspan, 8'10" standing reach") prevents then from playing in consistent lineups together, we know that Al can play C fulltime and Josh can spot at SF. Larry Drew already utilizes this lineup with Ivan to a lot of success and I believe that Williams could increase the potential of it. Looking forward it also creates flexibility for the team heading into free agency. If Josh decides to pull an Elton Brand/Carlos Boozer/Hedo Turkoglu/Lebron James and bolt or just prices himself out of Ferry's desires then there is a contingency with a potential replacement. If the big CP3/Dwight dream is looking like a reality and Al has to be moved to clear up necessary salary then you have a contingency for a cheaper replacement already on the roster. If Ivan, Zaza and Tolliver (yes, that's meant as a joke) bolt for literally greener pastures you also have a position of depth already filled, etc. etc.

So... your argument here is that D Williams needs more time under the basket to show his "All-NBA" game. He can't get in his current situation since the guy he'd need to defer to when their on the court together can't space the floor for him even though he hits nearly 40% from 3. Hence, we need to bring him here and pair him with 2 PFs with one of them being a guy who the hometown fans have actually booed when he takes shots from 20' out without a defender within 10' of him. Uh... OK.

And to further this, the next part of the argument would be that instead of using your hypothesis from Adelman and letting him wallow on MIN's bench for the rest of the year then trading for him when he would have lesser value of another 1/2 season plus of 20 minutes per, we're actually going to give up assets now. I'm sure it makes complete sense to someone.

Oh, cut the theatrics. Did you not say this exactly?:

.....but the fact is that Ferry has had the plan to carry the $$ to FA since the day he agreed to the JJ deal. If you don't acknowledge that, then you're simply not playing the same game as the real world. Optimizing the return we could get in FA is our main goal right now...

Did I put those words in your post? Does the Louis Williams deal not fly in the face of that exact quote? His signing came after the JJ trade and it directly impacts money available in 2013's free agency so really now.

Here's the thing, you can disregard (Derrick) Williams all you want but I also think that he could help the team remain competitive and at a price (Jenkins and Morrow) we couldn't refuse. Louis is a bargain for sure but Williams is also putting up an above league average PER with the potential for more while also being on the equivalent of a MLE deal.

I see nothing here - Ferry has both a long-term and a short-term plan. If an opportunity presents itself that's either fits or is actually better than his current short-term plan while also fitting his long-term plan, then he'll adjust the short-term plan. Same with the long-term plan. Hence, why I refer to the short-term plan as the "baseline opportunity". Honestly, even BK did this - it's just that his plans sucked. Did this really have to be explained?

Fact is that L Williams also supports Ferry's plan in another way: we can still be competitive without JJ. Going to FA, we have to have a sales pitch - "come be our next JJ" isn't a good one; "we're competitive now without you, think what we can do with you" is. We needed some low cost players to fill JJ's production and L Williams has definitely helped with that. The fact that we could get him without giving up the opportunity to offer a max deal was the clincher.

Yes, we can expect that our free agents will be just as willing to forego a major payday in their 20s as a 38 year old looking to ring chase at the end of their career. This type of thinking worked out well for OKC in their negotiations with Harden.

Actually, we're both wrong on the numbers here. We don't have to sign Teague under the cap - we just need the room to not renounce him. The new CBA changes the cap hold on RFAs. Now for a player in Teague's situation, it's 250% of the last year of the players rookie scale contract which is basically $6M for him. If we sign all the player we want then all we need is the $6M headroom and we can sign Teague to whatever we want up to the max. In most every case presented, we should have plenty of room to keep Teague if we truly wanted to and only the most pessimistic - in terms of players not buying in and overall cap room - here don't allow for that. Now, yes, Smoove would have to buy in and take the floor in most any of these scenarios, and yes, this is the hitch. And as we've seen, Ferry started selling him on the future of the club from practically Day 1 in an effort to ensure his cooperation.

The baseline in all of this is that you view Williams as nothing more than a salary dump. If that's your thinking from the beginning then all of the rest of your arguments will follow suit. Fact is that a trade like this fulfills a need for Minnesota in that it gives them two SGs when all they have healthy is Shved at the expense of a talented prospect that is unlikely to fulfill their potential behind Love on a team looking desperately to make the playoffs at the end of a long rebuild. Make no mistake, they are giving up the best player in the deal but shoring up a position of need from a position of strength with the added benefit of being able to free up salary perhaps to resign Pekovic. That is what makes the value equal out and even make a proposal like this plausible.

Uh - huh? So, your argument here is that MIN has a young player with "All-NBA" potential and decide that a good trade for them is to acquire a deep rotation player and a prospect who's older and has the upside of the deep rotation. Even for a position of need, this is a salary dump. You don't trade someone you currently see as an eventual starter, so forth an "All-NBA" player, for deep rotation player unless you're getting rid of that player.

The Hawks have a more versatile roster due to length and athleticism that can accommodate Derrick Williams just like the team has done for Louis Williams despite having Teague and Harris already. We've managed to establish that the salary is only restrictive if maintaining the core is the plan to go along with a max player but even you admit that Bynum and Iguodala would be the mostly likely signees....That doesn't scream contending for a championship. That looks no different than the previous rosters with Joe and Marvin as far as upside an its ability to attract top tier vets on minimum deals. The core can just as easily be retained and a lower tier free agent(s) be signed or traded for with the rest of the money either being rolled over to the future or utilized in trades. It's not the end of the world or even having as dramatic an effect on the cap as you are making it out to be so just leave it at that.

The numbers have changed with the Teague information, but looking at the league's landscape, the fact is you need 3 stars and at this point, we have 2 at best. I understand trying to get one on the cheap by acquiring D Williams and praying he reaches his potential - I do. The problem with the plan is that it means that a team has to be trading a potential young star which, in and of itself, means that the player has some significant issues. It's actually safer to go the FA route than hoping your Hail Mary is answered in this fashion.

The ATLFAN:

It's not worth the time to even try and debate that guy. He is physically unable to even acknowledge that others may have opinions different from his own.

Which, of course, would make him a woman.

Yeah, I see. Long way since the days of Evil Dallas huh?

[theatlfan]

I really like the toughness and rebounding that JJ Hickson is bringing this year. He's been playing center for POR at only 6'9" and is avg a double-double on 56% shooting. (He was nominee to replace Smoove if we'd traded him over the summer.) His PER is higher than any player on our team.

I also am a big fan of Jason Thompson. I've only seen him play a handful of times, but he used to backup Cousins and is now a starter at PF for the Kings. He's avg 11 ppg and 8 rpg in around 30 minutes. Also shooting over 50% and has had some big games against teams without a true center. He'd be great backup and even a solid starter at Center.

Finally, Corey Brewer has really impressed me. I think he'd be a good pickup to start at SF, as you guys have stated before.

I don't see us taking on money in future years until we've switched gears with our future plans. I like Thompson, but I can't see us pulling him right now unless it's part of a bigger deal.

The one big ? I have on Brewer is what would DEN be looking for to deal him? He's matching or out-producing $30M worth of wings on that roster right now and DEN is in a scrum for a playoff spot in the West. I'd think they'd pay some assets to ditch Chandler, but I couldn't see them dealing Brewer unless someone offers them a deal they simply couldn't refuse. Are we willing to do that?

Hickson is an interesting case. PORT wouldn't actually hold his Bird Rights next off-season. I think they feel confident about resigning him, but a bird in the hand...

One last trade target:

Pau Gasol. I know I'll get blasted, but I think he provides specific skills that we can use in spades. Post scoring, interior passing, a true seven footer to guard opposing centers.

He's struggling now, and I'm not sure I'd trade Josh for him. But his resume speaks for itself.
Individual success, team success.

My philosophy has always been to sell stock at its highest, and buy at its lowest. Pau's stock is the lowest it's ever been. But he's still only 31, and brings a wealth of big game experience.

I'd actually be interested in exploring this possibility - not for Smoove, but something like a deal of expirings (say, D Harris, Petro, Morrow, Tolliver if they want him) + HOU's 1st (basically, what we got for JJ). I know that LAL wants more, but that LT next year will be steep and I don't know if any owner, even one with a TV contract like theirs, would OK paying as much salary for the other team's in the league as their own.

If we started down this path, then I think we basically need to trade one of Al or Smoove though. If the 2 trades leave us in a better position to succeed than the current one, then we'd have to entertain the idea...

[MaceCase]

OK, so you don't want to use proper statistics, so instead, you decide to cut the entire population here into two sample - 1 that was all top 5-10 picks (the exceptions minus Derrick Williams) and 1 that mid-to-late 1sts (earliest was Peja @ 14 who doesn't fit your description - but whatever) and 2nd rounders. Most would argue that this would say that Derrick Williams actually produces as much as those later picks and then bring out the stats to prove it - which they do. Instead your argument is that the poor young player isn't gifted minutes over players who are simply producing more... Really?!?!

My my, now who here is inventing arguments? At what point in time did I ever mention the draft position of these players having any bearing? GMs draft players, not coaches and all I know is that for the most part a lot of those players went on to be in rotation and some even All Star and All NBA players despite their minutes being capped between the mid teens to mid 20s during their first seasons. Peja is a perfect example of this because in his first seasons under Adelman he played only 21 and 24 minutes despite his production. Maybe you just like splitting hairs on Williams being at 21 and 19 mpg?

If the argument boils down to looking at prospects without using any statistics, then we'll never get to an actual decent conclusion here. The people who postulated this have much more experience than I and from how disjointed these arguments are, I'm sure you as well. It'd be an interesting point to come to some conclusion on, but since I know this could be a sticky fact against your argument, it's really pointless to have any discussion on it.

Show, don't tell. Instead of blowing flowers up my ass, compare the statistics of the players but then again, given your entire focus on his FG%, I'm sure you won't bother with an in-depth look and instead rely on the findings of others.

So... your argument here is that D Williams needs more time under the basket to show his "All-NBA" game. He can't get in his current situation since the guy he'd need to defer to when their on the court together can't space the floor for him even though he hits nearly 40% from 3. Hence, we need to bring him here and pair him with 2 PFs with one of them being a guy who the hometown fans have actually booed when he takes shots from 20' out without a defender within 10' of him. Uh... OK.

And to further this, the next part of the argument would be that instead of using your hypothesis from Adelman and letting him wallow on MIN's bench for the rest of the year then trading for him when he would have lesser value of another 1/2 season plus of 20 minutes per, we're actually going to give up assets now. I'm sure it makes complete sense to someone.

For someone who really got up in arms about someone allegedly putting words in their own argument you sure do like inventing ones in mine. Where before the draft positions of Adelman's former players somehow appeared now "All-NBA" has materialized out of the air and placed unto Derrick Williams. You intelligently dropped the measurables debate earlier because if you think that Williams is a tweener and Josh a SF.....then Love must be a SG. Yes he can space the floor better but what about defense in a lineup smaller and with less length than the Hawks? What about the athleticism and interior passing that both Josh and Al brings for multiple positions? Who exactly spaces the floor in the big lineups with Zaza and Ivan? Perhaps you've had your head in the sand because that has been a rather successful lineup for the Hawks for quite some time now.

Now, you do also realize that it's because his percieved value is low now that these supposed "assets" can be debated, right? Okay, suppose that his speculative value remains, perhaps even drops....what exactly would the Hawks be trading for him in the offseason? Maybe in your mind he'd be worth only two 2nd rounders by then but lost in all of this is that he's underperfoming for a #2 pick....not a NBA player. He's being spoken of as if he's hot garbage when statistically over his short career he's ahead of where Marvin and even Teague were over their first two seasons. Statistically he's already shown an appreciative jump from his rookie season so I guess if a trade like this was on Ferry's table it would be far smarter for him to say he'd prefer to wait it out on the chance that Williams doesn't improve over the larger 82 game sample. Possibly trading for him now seems to make sense to me and others in this thread and others throughout numerous boards too, but alas, you got that bone to pick with me in particular I guess.

I see nothing here - Ferry has both a long-term and a short-term plan. If an opportunity presents itself that's either fits or is actually better than his current short-term plan while also fitting his long-term plan, then he'll adjust the short-term plan. Same with the long-term plan. Hence, why I refer to the short-term plan as the "baseline opportunity". Honestly, even BK did this - it's just that his plans sucked. Did this really have to be explained?

Fact is that L Williams also supports Ferry's plan in another way: we can still be competitive without JJ. Going to FA, we have to have a sales pitch - "come be our next JJ" isn't a good one; "we're competitive now without you, think what we can do with you" is. We needed some low cost players to fill JJ's production and L Williams has definitely helped with that. The fact that we could get him without giving up the opportunity to offer a max deal was the clincher.

Right, and it still needs to be explained to you that the Hawks could hypothetically attain a high potential prospect that could better the short-term and long-term for nothing more than filler while still not giving up the opportunity at a max free agent.

Actually, we're both wrong on the numbers here. We don't have to sign Teague under the cap - we just need the room to not renounce him. The new CBA changes the cap hold on RFAs. Now for a player in Teague's situation, it's 250% of the last year of the players rookie scale contract which is basically $6M for him. If we sign all the player we want then all we need is the $6M headroom and we can sign Teague to whatever we want up to the max. In most every case presented, we should have plenty of room to keep Teague if we truly wanted to and only the most pessimistic - in terms of players not buying in and overall cap room - here don't allow for that. Now, yes, Smoove would have to buy in and take the floor in most any of these scenarios, and yes, this is the hitch. And as we've seen, Ferry started selling him on the future of the club from practically Day 1 in an effort to ensure his cooperation.

So since we are wishing and hoping so much, we can also present the scenario where Josh and whoever else buys in just slightly more and then this whole fallacy of Williams contract eliminating the ability to sign free agents can go to die.

Uh - huh? So, your argument here is that MIN has a young player with "All-NBA" potential and decide that a good trade for them is to acquire a deep rotation player and a prospect who's older and has the upside of the deep rotation. Even for a position of need, this is a salary dump. You don't trade someone you currently see as an eventual starter, so forth an "All-NBA" player, for deep rotation player unless you're getting rid of that player.

I guess if we say "All-NBA" enough perhaps it'll magically appear in any of my arguments. We can also just overlook potential issues such as the Wolves being in "win now" mode thus eliminating desires for "eventual" starters or the fact that either of Morrow or Jenkins are deep rotation players because of depth ahead of them (oh my!). Yes, let's just create scenarios that are absolutely convenient for ourselves, um hmm.

The numbers have changed with the Teague information, but looking at the league's landscape, the fact is you need 3 stars and at this point, we have 2 at best. I understand trying to get one on the cheap by acquiring D Williams and praying he reaches his potential - I do. The problem with the plan is that it means that a team has to be trading a potential young star which, in and of itself, means that the player has some significant issues. It's actually safer to go the FA route than hoping your Hail Mary is answered in this fashion.

Yes, we can pretend that teams have never before moved on from talented youngsters in favor of achieving short term goals.

and

We can pretend that the team would somehow be prevented from both pulling off this or any trade and exploring the free agent market to its fullest.

why?

Because Jeff Teague, a player who you could levy plenty of the same criticisms that are being laid upon Williams, is seen as the lynchpin to your view of offseason success......

Have you stopped to realize that this is the crux of your argument? No, of course not. Wax poetic about my riposte or detente or je ne sais quoi instead, why don't you.

The ATLFAN:

It's not worth the time to even try and debate that guy. He is physically unable to even acknowledge that others may have opinions different from his own.

Which, of course, would make him a woman.

Yeah, I see. Long way since the days of Evil Dallas huh?[/quote]
Oh yes. Throw your lot in with a guy that is still bitter from a "debate" that I and 5 others pointed out to him in great detail that he was wrong on. Nothing petty or womanlike about stalking me through threads to complain about it still all this time later........and yet curiously be one of the ones to agree with me on the premise of getting Williams.

[Jamaaliver]

Oh yes. Throw your lot in with a guy that is still bitter from a "debate" that I and 5 others pointed out to him in great detail that he was wrong on. Nothing petty or womanlike about stalking me through threads to complain about it still all this time later........and yet curiously be one of the ones to agree with me on the premise of getting Williams

1. Damian Lillard is avg more points and assists than anyone on our team. His success proves I was right.

2. I review old threads all the time to get a feel what us Hawks fans were thinking during a particular time.

3. It's not a fight, or a contest dude. This is a HAWKS fansite. It's for healthy, mature debate amongst all Hawks fans.
We're supposed to be here to support and challenge each other, not berate each other.

You still don't get that. =(

[MaceCase]

And yet, even after a thread that brought people out of lurking to join many others in pointing out to you your folly, not only do you still continue it but you've taken to calling me your ex-wife and a woman months later.......oh but you want to lecture to me about berating and "getting" things.

[Jamaaliver]

Why do you constantly hijack other user's threads just to point out how dumb they and all their ideas are?

Let it go.

Please.

[MaceCase]

Because I did that, right? Because as I've spent the entirety of the thread discussing the topic of the OP, the person who swooped in to do nothing but call me a woman and lament over the past is now accusing me of hijacking said thread. You are a hypocrite and surely must be joking about telling other people to let things go.

[Jamaaliver]

And there goes the name-calling, right on schedule. Do you actually contribute to the blog or just show up to insult and demean those that have opinions that differ from your own?

It's a trade thread. So let's talk trades....

Try not to immediately refer t us fellow HAWK FANS as idiots if we come up with an idea that doesn't tickle your fancy.

[MaceCase]

I must be in the twilight zone. Someone continuously refers to me as a "brickwall" their "ex-wife" and a "woman" yet accuses ME of naming calling because I called them a hypocrite? Unlike you, I don't resort to personal attacks but its become rather evident as to why you are divorced.

[Jamaaliver]

Unlike you, I don't resort to personal attacks but its become rather evident as to why you are divorced.

THAT my friend...IS a personal attack. Not that I'm surprised.

Luckily I'm not thin skinned.

Again, this is a HAWKS fan site.

This is a Trade Ideas Thread.

Do you have any trade ideas, or is this only about you insulting Jamaaliver and TheAtlFan because we don't agree with you 100%.

[dms269]

Stop the arguing back and forth.

[epfou1]

Just curious, what can the Hawks get for Devin Harris that can further help the team.

[Yungsta404]

Just curious, what can the Hawks get for Devin Harris that can further help the team.

nothing. The only only scenario I can see where we can get anything of value for devin harris is when a contender in win now mode desperately needs a point guard. We might be able to get one of their 1st rounders for him