Has Wiggins been compared to Cory Brewer?

[EMG518]

You know calling anyone who dissagrees with you a WigginsStan doesn't help your case bro.

Blind support by definition makes one a -stan.

Youre going to look really foolish when this is all said and done. Thats all im going to say.

[CablexDeadpool]

It's no use Noobcake.

Wiggins is probably the most unimpressive overhyped NBA prospect that since well Shabazz Muhammad and Harrison Barnes, I'ma take your words because it sounds nice, built on the alters of athleticism and "potential".

"But's he's 19 years old."

Lebron, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Beasley, Derrick Rose, Allen Iverson, OJ Mayo, Kevin Durant, James Harden and a countless of other perimeter players weren't devoid of elite ballskills at 19-20 years old. What made them elite prospects, was the fact they had ball skills on top of their athletic ability, not devoid of ball skills and just pure athletes.

That's what is wrong with BBALL today, nobody cares about the actual skills anymore. If you just jump high and your jumpshot doesn't look like crap, you got "potential".

He can learn how to dribble.
He can learn how to shoot.
He can learn how to run a pick and roll.

Once he gets drafted.

Basically you are telling me, teams might as well just draft the most athletic guy they can find and teach him how to play basketball. Might as well go get the best streetballers and teach them how to play organized basketball on an NBA level.

And the funny crap is, if Wiggins stayed another year and college and put up a measly 15 points a game, a lot of Wiggins slobbers on would change their tune, but since it's his freshmen year, "He got potential."

And people are comparing him to players that he currently doesn't even play like, just hoping he plays like Paul George and never seen Paul George play in college or read a Paul George scouting report but think somebody sat him down and taught him how to shoot one day (Paul George was never a bad shooter) after he was subpar in college, just hoping Wiggins plays like Tracy Mcgrady, just hoping he plays like Vince Carter etc etc etc.

When he plays like a Corey Brewer and a Trevor Ariza, but Wiggins is a Pokemon and he is going to evolve into Orlando Magic Tracy Mcgrady.


Wiggins can run fast and jump high and when you are athletically better than everybody else and you just zoom pass them, you look impressive and that's what he did in High School.

Then he gets into the NCAA and he's a pedestrian. He's boring. He has no ball skills. He is simply a cutter and a garbage man and a spot shooter and a transition player and last time I check, if you gonna draft a wing player number 1, they gotta be iso players, they gotta be able to handle the ball, they gotta be able to run pick and roll and gotta be able to shoot off the dribble.

But it's Wiggins and he's been hyped to death and people just can't let it go that he isn't some Lebron James caliber player.

[HeartBreakKid]

It's no use Noobcake.

Wiggins is probably the most unimpressive overhyped NBA prospect that since well Shabazz Muhammad and Harrison Barnes, I'ma take your words because it sounds nice, built on the alters of athleticism and "potential".

"But's he's 19 years old."

Lebron, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Beasley, Derrick Rose, Allen Iverson, OJ Mayo, Kevin Durant, James Harden and a countless of other perimeter players weren't devoid of elite ballskills at 19-20 years old. What made them elite prospects, was the fact they had ball skills on top of their athletic ability, not devoid of ball skills and just pure athletes.

That's what is wrong with BBALL today, nobody cares about the actual skills anymore. If you just jump high and your jumpshot doesn't look like crap, you got "potential".

He can learn how to dribble.
He can learn how to shoot.
He can learn how to run a pick and roll.

Once he gets drafted.

Basically you are telling me, teams might as well just draft the most athletic guy they can find and teach him how to play basketball. Might as well go get the best streetballers and teach them how to play organized basketball on an NBA level.

And the funny crap is, if Wiggins stayed another year and college and put up a measly 15 points a game, a lot of Wiggins slobbers on would change their tune, but since it's his freshmen year, "He got potential."

And people are comparing him to players that he currently doesn't even play like, just hoping he plays like Paul George and never seen Paul George play in college or read a Paul George scouting report but think somebody sat him down and taught him how to shoot one day after he was subpar in college, just hoping Wiggins plays like Tracy Mcgrady, just hoping he plays like Vince Carter etc etc etc.

When he plays like a Corey Brewer and a Trevor Ariza, but Wiggins is a Pokemon and he is going to evolve into Orlando Magic Tracy Mcgrady.


Wiggins can run fast and jump high and when you are athletically better than everybody else and you just zoom pass them, you look impressive and that's what he did in High School.

Then he gets into the NCAA and he's a pedestrian. He's boring. He has no ball skills. He is simply a cutter and a garbage man and a spot shooter and a transition player and last time I check, if you gonna draft a wing player number 1, they gotta be iso players, they gotta be able to handle the ball, they gotta be able to run pick and roll and gotta be able to shoot off the dribble.

But it's Wiggins and he's been hyped to death and people just can't let it go that he isn't some Lebron James caliber player.

A little harsh sounding, but I agree.

[CablexDeadpool]

And I really wish people would stop bringing up Paul George as some type of success story of the tall lanky athletic raw player that Wiggins is gonna magically turn into.

Paul George was not "raw" in any form.

Go read a Paul George scouting report, one of the best things about him was the fact he had range on his jumper and he could hit the three on top of being 6'9 210 pounds with hops and speed. They just didn't know if his floor game, dribbling and passing which he was the star player on his team and ran its offense, could translate, due the fact he's sloppy, and he still is sloppy, but he gets it done...albeit sloppily in the NBA.

The fact that like he had a hard time converting shots off the dribble,due to the fact that his dribbling is unrefined, which it still is and he just bombed threes instead of using his athleticism to get the line, on top of not playing for an elite team or against elite talent - made scouts not draft him in the top 8.


But the truth is, Paul George was better in college skillwise than Andrew Wiggins and Wiggins is going number 1 and Paul George went 10 and the gap in skill is pretty significant because at least George had that three ball down and shot it with volume and was running his team.

[Tave]

Garbage man = Leading scorer on #7 ranked team in the nation

[CablexDeadpool]

Garbage man = Leading scorer on #7 ranked team in the nation

So...Kenneth Faried wasn't a garbage man averaging 17 points...

[Tave]

Garbage man = Leading scorer on #7 ranked team in the nation

So...Kenneth Faried wasn't a garbage man averaging 17 points...

Faried didn't average 17 points until his senior year and played in a Busch League conference. I'm not saying Wiggins has a complete offensive game by any means but your breakdown sounds like a lot of bah-humbug to me.

[bigboi]

DRose and Wiggins' stats are pretty similar so idk. You can hate, but dude is the truth

[CablexDeadpool]

Faried didn't average 17 points until his senior year and played in a Busch League conference. I'm not saying Wiggins has a complete offensive game by any means but your breakdown sounds like a lot of bah-humbug to me.

Shabazz Muhmmad 18 points a game...same type of gabage man centered game as Andrew Wiggins.

Anybody can score 18 points a game off putbacks, fastbreaks, spot ups, off the ball cuts.

It's not some extraordinary feat. Deng had done it his entire career.

I am just not an idiot to think, I'ma draft a wing player number 1, who makes his living off ball cuts, spot up 3 and transition points.

He can't even iso.

Demar Derozan/Rudy Gay is the apex of Andrew Wiggins offensive talent, not worth number one to me. Not worth number 3, number 4, number 5, he should be drafted around 7 to 10 in a draft with Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony caliber players, but this draft isn't full of Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony caliber players, it's full of Lamarcus Aldridge caliber players. So Wiggins is a number 1 prospect, with a measly 16 points a game.

I mean Perry Jones got 14 and 13 points a game his two seasons and his teams was full of chuckers and top prospects. And if he would've left his first season, he would've been top 3.

Basically, unless you are Kevin Durant, lightning everyone up, as a wing player, not worth it as a Top 5. Or you are Michael Jordan and your team is just stacked so you kinda just chill and play in a system but the star talent is obvious and you take over games occasionally, not worth it as a top 5.

The people that are in love with Andrew Wiggins, would've drafted Demar Derozan number 1 and yelled "Potential!"

[MiltownHawkeye]

It's no use Noobcake.

Wiggins is probably the most unimpressive overhyped NBA prospect that since well Shabazz Muhammad and Harrison Barnes, I'ma take your words because it sounds nice, built on the alters of athleticism and "potential".

"But's he's 19 years old."

That's what is wrong with BBALL today, nobody cares about the actual skills anymore. If you just jump high and your jumpshot doesn't look like crap, you got "potential".

He can learn how to dribble.
He can learn how to shoot.
He can learn how to run a pick and roll.

Once he gets drafted.

Better ballhandling, better shooting (not that Wiggins' shot is bad by any means), and offensive sets can be taught. Wiggins' athletic gifts cannot be taught. So yes, a lot of Wiggins' hype is based on potential because that is what NBA GMs look for in a superstar-driven league. That is not a difficult concept to understand. Wiggins is a prize while the Kyle Andersons and the Doug McDermotts of the world are not because they have physical limitations to their game.

Basically you are telling me, teams might as well just draft the most athletic guy they can find and teach him how to play basketball. Might as well go get the best streetballers and teach them how to play organized basketball on an NBA level.

If you have the logical reasoning skills of a fifth grader and resort to using strawman arguments, then sure you might interpret it that way.

And the funny crap is, if Wiggins stayed another year and college and put up a measly 15 points a game, a lot of Wiggins slobbers on would change their tune, but since it's his freshmen year, "He got potential."

Um...no ****? If he didn't improve from one year to the next that would obviously be a massive red flag and people wouldn't be as high on him. That's common sense dude. Do you use it when evaluating prospects or do you resort to childish "#TeamWiggins vs. #TeamParker" arguments?

Then he gets into the NCAA and he's a pedestrian. He's boring. He has no ball skills. He is simply a cutter and a garbage man and a spot shooter and a transition player and last time I check, if you gonna draft a wing player number 1, they gotta be iso players, they gotta be able to handle the ball, they gotta be able to run pick and roll and gotta be able to shoot off the dribble.

He's putting up 16/6 on one of the best and most talented teams in the country in a low-usage role. That is not "pedestrian" by any means. Sorry he's not isoing every play and doing fadeaway jumpers and playing heroball every single possession.

And LOL and naming some of the most important skills for a 3 in the NBA to have and acting like they don't mean anything. "Yeah, he moves well off the ball and uses athleticism to create rebound/putback op portunities and shoots the 3 and is great in transition and plays team ball BUT DOES HE HAVE A FULLY DEVELOPED OFFENSIVE REPERTOIRE AND POINT FORWARD SKILLS AT AGE 19?"

But it's Wiggins and he's been hyped to death and people just can't let it go that he isn't some Lebron James caliber player.

None of the prospects in this class are LeBron James caliber players. Not one person thinks Wiggins is supposed They might not even be Kevin Durant caliber players. If we're only evaluating college production then Parker has been a disappointment, Embiid can't stay on the floor, and Smart has shown little sign of improvement. None of this means Wiggins can't be a special player and shouldn't be going near the top. You act like there's nothing in between average scrub starter and top 10 all-time player.

[Tave]

Faried didn't average 17 points until his senior year and played in a Busch League conference. I'm not saying Wiggins has a complete offensive game by any means but your breakdown sounds like a lot of bah-humbug to me.

Shabazz Muhmmad 18 points a game...same type of gabage man centered game as Andrew Wiggins.

Anybody can score 18 points a game off putbacks, fastbreaks, spot ups, off the ball cuts.

It's not some extraordinary feat. Deng had done it his entire career.

I am just not an idiot to think, I'ma draft a wing player number 1, who makes his living off ball cuts, spot up 3 and transition points.

He can't even iso.

Demar Derozan/Rudy Gay is the apex of Andrew Wiggins offensive talent, not worth number one to me. Not worth number 3, number 4, number 5, he should be drafted around 7 to 10 in a draft with Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony caliber players, but this draft isn't full of Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony caliber players, it's full of Lamarcus Aldridge caliber players. So Wiggins is a number 1 prospect, with a measly 16 points a game.

I mean Perry Jones got 14 and 13 points a game his two seasons and his teams was full of chuckers and top prospects. And if he would've left his first season, he would've been top 3.

Basically, unless you are Kevin Durant, lightning everyone up, as a wing player, not worth it as a Top 5. Or you are Michael Jordan and your team is just stacked so you kinda just chill and play in a system but the star talent is obvious and you take over games occasionally, not worth it as a top 5.

The people that are in love with Andrew Wiggins, would've drafted Demar Derozan number 1 and yelled "Potential!"

Shabazz fell in the draft due to concerns about his character and defense, regardless, he has had effectively zero opportunity to date by design so I'm not sure what conclusions you think you can draw from his rookie season.

Derozan wasn't anywhere near the shooter Wiggins is but what an odd choice to use to slam Wiggins given the fact that Demar earned an All-Star appearance this year.

[brackdan70]

not by anyone who has a TV

[noobcake]

Better ballhandling, better shooting (not that Wiggins' shot is bad by any means), and offensive sets can be taught. Wiggins' athletic gifts cannot be taught. So yes, a lot of Wiggins' hype is based on potential because that is what NBA GMs look for in a superstar-driven league. That is not a difficult concept to understand. Wiggins is a prize while the Kyle Andersons and the Doug McDermotts of the world are not because they have physical limitations to their game.

Okay more athleticism and potential. Can you explain to me why not everyone in the NBA has Chris Paul handling, Curry shooting and Durant offensive skills?

If you have the logical reasoning skills of a fifth grader and resort to using strawman arguments, then sure you might interpret it that way.

Learn your fallacies kids. A mild case of association fallacy is not the same as strawman. Ad hominem attack in defense of Wiggins?

Um...no ****? If he didn't improve from one year to the next that would obviously be a massive red flag and people wouldn't be as high on him. That's common sense dude. Do you use it when evaluating prospects or do you resort to childish "#TeamWiggins vs. #TeamParker" arguments?

Shifting the burden of proof much? Wiggins' improvement from high school days to college? Can we talk about that, like the lack of improvement in skillset demonstrated in highlight videos and the ones he is showing this year?

He's putting up 16/6 on one of the best and most talented teams in the country in a low-usage role. That is not "pedestrian" by any means. Sorry he's not isoing every play and doing fadeaway jumpers and playing heroball every single possession.

And LOL and naming some of the most important skills for a 3 in the NBA to have and acting like they don't mean anything. "Yeah, he moves well off the ball and uses athleticism to create rebound/putback op portunities and shoots the 3 and is great in transition and plays team ball BUT DOES HE HAVE A FULLY DEVELOPED OFFENSIVE REPERTOIRE AND POINT FORWARD SKILLS AT AGE 19?"

So this line boils down once again to athleticism and conveniently the lack of ball skills. Wiggins is now younger than other freshmen in the draft class?

Hint: Wiggins has the highest usage on Kansas (with Embiid second, see below for stats). He is not some low usage role player in the Kansas system. He is featured on offense. You see all the ball cuts and transition plays because he is incapable of creating his own offense. Stop trying to perpetuate the lie that Kansas does not play around him. Self modified the offense to revolve around Wiggins. He is THE featured player, just look at his shot attempts compared to other Kansas players. Bill Self does not draw up half court plays for Wiggins because he doesn't have the ball skills, not because that is not part of the Kansas system.

None of the prospects in this class are LeBron James caliber players. Not one person thinks Wiggins is supposed They might not even be Kevin Durant caliber players. If we're only evaluating college production then Parker has been a disappointment, Embiid can't stay on the floor, and Smart has shown little sign of improvement. None of this means Wiggins can't be a special player and shouldn't be going near the top. You act like there's nothing in between average scrub starter and top 10 all-time player.

Just a hint, reread this thread. See how people are labeling Wiggins' ceiling. And is there really a need to falsely attack Parker's college production, Embiid's inability to stay out of foul, or Smart's supposed lack of improvement to prop up lack of basketball skills?

Also see stats below for the potential of a player who apparently can't stay out of foul trouble. Don't gonna bother linking the Youtube dreamshakes since you probably have seen those.

Wiggins/Embiid
PER: 19.7/26.8
USG%: 25.3/23.7
ORtg: 114.7/114.2
DRtg: 102.8/90.5
WS/40: .161/0.204

Wiggins and Embiid have about the same impact offensively. Defensive sieve vs true game changing defender, a whopping 12 points better per 100 possessions. Also please provide, some stats on why Parker has been a disappointment. From an eye test skill perspective or from a statistics and/or advanced statistics perspective, please provide some evidence.

[Tave]

You posted the wrong DRtg for Wiggins, and while Embiid's is sexier, it bears mentioning that he's having a lot of trouble just staying on the floor, while Wiggins leads the team in minutes and often take the hardest assignment.

[noobcake]

You posted the wrong DRtg for Wiggins, and while Embiid's is sexier, it bears mentioning that he's having a lot of trouble just staying on the floor, while Wiggins leads the team in minutes and often take the hardest assignment.

Fixed. The 12 points worse than Embiid statement is still true.

DRtg is adjusted for minutes. Individual DRtg is a function of team defensive rating when the player is on the floor adjusted for the estimated number of turnovers generated, mainly a function of block, steal, defensive rebounds. Wiggins simply doesn't generate have good defensive stats.

Instead of trying to explain away the stat (which I have listed for other SF projected in the first round above), maybe Wiggins is simply not a great defender? Intangibles?

[Tave]

You posted the wrong DRtg for Wiggins, and while Embiid's is sexier, it bears mentioning that he's having a lot of trouble just staying on the floor, while Wiggins leads the team in minutes and often take the hardest assignment.

Fixed. The 12 points worse than Embiid statement is still true.

DRtg is adjusted for minutes. Individual DRtg is a function of team defensive rating when the player is on the floor adjusted for the estimated number of turnovers generated, mainly a function of block, steal, defensive rebounds. Wiggins simply doesn't generate have good defensive stats.

Or it's a function of Wiggins playing the whole game on the toughest covers and naturally landing around the team average. He spends a lot of time at SG on defense where tends to be difficult to pick up the major DRtg variables.

Instead of trying to explain away the stat (which I have listed for other SF projected in the first round above), maybe Wiggins is simply not a great defender? Intangibles?

Yeah, let's just take DRtg on face value with no context and simply rank every prospect in descending order.

[Novocaine]

Self modified the offense to revolve around Wiggins. He is THE featured player, just look at his shot attempts compared to other Kansas players. Bill Self does not draw up half court plays for Wiggins because he doesn't have the ball skills, not because that is not part of the Kansas system.

Self didn't modify the offense at all. You're making that up. The same 3-out 2-in hi-lo offense he's always used.

And yes, it's an offense where the guards main role is to be shoot and cut and discourages dribble penetration as there is often a big on the way.

If Wiggins was playing for, say, Calipari, in his dribble drive offense, I suspect people's opinion of his ball-handling would be somewhat different. He doesn't have advanced ball-handling skills, but he's better than Paul George at the same stage and worlds apart from Brewer.

[frozt]

The more and more I read about wiggins, the more he's scaring me as a potential top 3 pick. Though I think he could be a solid 2nd option on a championship team if he develops correctly. I don't see him having the characteristics to lead an NBA team to a championship. You can just tell by his demeanor.

[MGrand15]

A lot of people are expressing concerns over his skills but I'm actually more concerned with his athleticism. Maybe it's just me but I'm not seeing the same type of bounce that I used to see in his older clips. I'm sure it's a function of playing with better/bigger competition but people are calling this guy an elite, elite athlete and I haven't really seen it.

Maybe his lack of ball skills/instincts don't let him show it off but he's been really bad at finishing at the rim, he's not rebounding particularly well, he's not making a huge impact defensively and he's not drawing fouls. He's also pretty skinny for a potential SF. I feel like he may be a two-footed jumper like Derrick Williams - which significantly lowers his ceiling as a wing prospect in my eyes. All of this stuff translates to a guy that either isn't as athletic as people think, isn't athletic in useful ways (not a great first step, not a great one-footed leaper) or just doesn't have the motor to put his athleticism to use.

Are there any clips out there that really show his one of kind athleticism in college? I feel like a truly elite athlete would make more of an impact just by doing athletic things out there.

[Mik317]

The level of hatred some seem to for the kid must mean he is doing something right. lol.

Wigginstans? really? That seriously hurts any arguement you may have, as it makes you seem like a hater from jump. You aren't going to make people understand when from jump you are insulting them...doesn't work that way

He's not perfect and isn't as gamechanging as advertised for sure but geez.....