How good do you see Andrew wiggins being?

[maoriboy]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

[maoriboy]

Not sure anyone throwing out Andre Iguodala comparisons has even watched him play. (Or George for that matter but I digress)

He tops out as a similar player to Luol Deng.

He would be comparable to Iguodala if he greatly improved his all around repertoire of skills while still maintaining his timid mentality, to his advantage he is more athletic than Iggy, although Iggy has had an Adonis' physique since he's come into the league. A more athletic Luol Deng makes sense.

Iguodala played point for high school and college, i don't think he matches up well with Wiggins.

[Illmatic12]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

We already calling him a lockdown defender, before we've actually seen him play at the NBA level? Becoming a lockdown defender in the NBA isn't just about athleticism.

And Wiggins can't dribble or finish decently, those are two of his biggest criticisms. People keep making false statements about Wiggins pretending they're true. Stop being blinded by the hype and evaluate him as you would any other prospect.

Luol Deng in his 3rd year averaged ~19/7/3 (and 22/9/3 in the postseason over 10 games). I don't think it's a guarantee that Wiggins eclipses that by his 3rd year. Deng was a pretty good two-way player in his prime and versatile, it's not like he was some scrub.

[LoveDaBoo]

Who knows. I think he'll be a pretty to very good player. I'm bearish that he'll be a superstar. But what do I know? Honestly, I'm not that high on any of these guys being superstars. Wiggins/Parker/Embiid all show the possibility, but they all seem unlikely for differing reasons.

[maoriboy]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

We already calling him a lockdown defender, before we've actually seen him play at the NBA level? Becoming a lockdown defender in the NBA isn't just about athleticism.

And Wiggins can't dribble or finish decently, those are two of his biggest criticisms. People keep making false statements about Wiggins pretending they're true. Stop being blinded by the hype and evaluate him as you would any other prospect.

Luol Deng in his 3rd year averaged ~19/7/3 (and 22/9/3 in the postseason over 10 games). I don't think it's a guarantee that Wiggins eclipses that by his 3rd year. Deng was a pretty good two-way player in his prime and versatile, it's not like he was some scrub.

Calling him a lockdown defender is the same as how we call Parker good to go scorer, I don't know about yourself but I've seen many games where wiggins has literally shutdown other elite talents. His lateral quickness and instincts are general well timed and on point, I don't have a problem with pointing out a major strength in his game.

And what false statements have I made? That by his third year he wouldn't or couldn't improve in areas that seem so important to his critics to point out? That a top 3 pick in a deep draft has the potential to produce above 19-7-3 by his THIRD YEAR? Is that really that impossible for him to achieve with say Philly's uptempo game playing alongside Noel and MCW?

All I'm doing is saying he has the tools, mentality and ability to achieve greater then what we have seen so far.

[Illmatic12]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

We already calling him a lockdown defender, before we've actually seen him play at the NBA level? Becoming a lockdown defender in the NBA isn't just about athleticism.

And Wiggins can't dribble or finish decently, those are two of his biggest criticisms. People keep making false statements about Wiggins pretending they're true. Stop being blinded by the hype and evaluate him as you would any other prospect.

Luol Deng in his 3rd year averaged ~19/7/3 (and 22/9/3 in the postseason over 10 games). I don't think it's a guarantee that Wiggins eclipses that by his 3rd year. Deng was a pretty good two-way player in his prime and versatile, it's not like he was some scrub.

Calling him a lockdown defender is the same as how we call Parker good to go scorer, I don't know about yourself but I've seen many games where wiggins has literally shutdown other elite talents. His lateral quickness and instincts are general well timed and on point, I don't have a problem with pointing out a major strength in his game.

And what false statements have I made? That by his third year he wouldn't or couldn't improve in areas that seem so important to his critics to point out? That a top 3 pick in a deep draft has the potential to produce above 19-7-3 by his THIRD YEAR? Is that really that impossible for him to achieve with say Philly's uptempo game playing alongside Noel and MCW?

All I'm doing is saying he has the tools, mentality and ability to achieve greater then what we have seen so far.

I've seen Wiggins play really good defense for stretches, I've also seen him drift in and out in terms of on-ball defense. I think he'll be a good help defender, but there's no guarantee he'll become one of those elite perimeter defenders who just dogs his matchup for 48min. I won't disagree with your statement though, Parker isn't guaranteed to be an elite NBA scorer either so it's the same.

The false statement you made is that Wiggins is supposedly a great finisher and dribbler, not only is he not great but he is subpar for a supposed elite wing scorer. He can improve, but he'd be improving to just get up to par, not to be elite.

Wiggins has tons of potential, but I think people are letting his hype blind them from seeing his obvious flaws. From an unbiased perspective, it's not likely for a player with poor natural finishing ability and ballhandling to *significantly* improve in those areas over the course of his career. But because the name 'Andrew Wiggins' has been on magazine covers and TV specials, people are assuming he'll do what most players don't do.

[maoriboy]

I don't see Wiggins being that elite in terms of defense, guys like Tony Allen are role players that can't do much else, if Wiggins pans out I see him being Paul George, a guy like you said that can defend for stretches. If that's what we are disagreeing on I might not have worded my argument.

See the thing is, when I described Wiggins I said, lockdown defender, that can run the floor, shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate. If I said great then I know why your on my case. I didn't though, so we can agree to agree?

See maybe your right in that he's screwed from the beginning, no dribble and bad finishing at the rim aren't things that should be discussed with perimeter players. But his athleticism, size and defense to me show a lot of promise, if all we are looking at is his flaws and why he can't finish and dribble like player B,C,D your ignoring the skills that he has already and the potential for him to improve in the areas that he lacks.

[Illmatic12]

I don't see Wiggins being that elite in terms of defense, guys like Tony Allen are role players that can't do much else, if Wiggins pans out I see him being Paul George, a guy like you said that can defend for stretches. If that's what we are disagreeing on I might not have worded my argument.

See the thing is, when I described Wiggins I said, lockdown defender, that can run the floor, shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate. If I said great then I know why your on my case. I didn't though, so we can agree to agree?

See maybe your right in that he's screwed from the beginning, no dribble and bad finishing at the rim aren't things that should be discussed with perimeter players. But his athleticism, size and defense to me show a lot of promise, if all we are looking at is his flaws and why he can't finish and dribble like player B,C,D your ignoring the skills that he has already and the potential for him to improve in the areas that he lacks.

Yeah looking at the basic overall picture I agree with you. Wiggins is a great prospect who's got a whole lot of room to improve, there's no telling what he could turn out to be just yet.

[rockmanslim]

includes some undated workout footage. working on his handles

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prplvNqeAoo[/youtube]

[Hans Embiid]

^^^I think his left hand will be fine, he doesn't turn the ball over and gets to the line at will. His finishing to date has been sub-standard, but he also looks like he grew a couple inches coming into Kansas and is still filling out his frame. At 19, kids are all over the map in terms of physical development, and given his astonishing athleticism, excellent body control, huge hands, and soft touch, I wouldn't worry too much about his finishing unless we're 3-4 years down the line and he still hasn't shown any growth in that regard.

And yes, lots of basketball players make huge strides in finishing at that age, when they transition from adolescent boys to grown men. People need to realize that, historically, very few players enter college mature enough to bang with older players, including well-known NBA all-stars.

his left hand is a big issue. what is a bigger issue is that he cant creat offense from the left side of the floor. he is super uncomfortable there, and he only ever goes right on attempt straight blow bys. no crossover, no counters, no hesitations. just go.

these arent thing you develop into EXCELLENT skills from the level he is at. he works hard, he will get better. but you dont go from extremely raw and unskilled to tmac/superstar level skills at his age and current skill set. that feel for the game is a gift.

id be shocked if he is ever more then a rich mans terrance ross

then you gonna be pretty shocked pretty soon.

this guy gonna put up 16-18 PPG on a good FG% in his rookie season and will be a Allstar probably in his 2nd season or 3rd.

[Optimus_Steel]

Wiggins dribbles like a toddler that has never seen a basketball so its hard for me to envision him becoming an elite player.

[jpengland]

Said it before, and will say it again.

Prime Shawn Marion is his ceiling.

That's a fantastic, fantastic player - but not the franchise player that people are expecting.

He'd be a perfect fit on a good team. He may get roundly panned by the casual fan on a bad team.

[East Bay Sports]

I think his FLOOR is a first team all defensive player who scores 12-15 PPG. I don't want to speculate on his ceiling because we all know how much potential he has.

[skones]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

And this is where people get in trouble with Wiggins. People look at his run and jump athleticism, his body, and just see "potential." It's not as easy as that. Probabilities and progression models are huge here. When you talk about him improving his "handles" and his "finishing ability." You can't simply go from one extreme to another, it's the likelihood of how much that specific skill improves.

It's why the Paul George comparisons are so ridiculously off base. He's a very VERY rare example of player progression, and I was particularly high on George coming out for a number of reasons that just aren't there with Wiggins.

[Nycballa2k]

Well no, the result is a player who got a lot better at everything to do with basketball. That's why he's upped his volume and seen no decrease in efficiency even while dealing with increased defensive pressure.

he didnt see much of an increase in efficiency either. and he wasnt efficient to start with. saying he didnt do worse doesnt really mean much.

Horrible to average = big time development.

but after 5 years, still not very good. which is my point. obviously guys can get better in many areas. but when you are starting from such a low level, your not going to get them much better then average, if that.

the guy is a future role player, not a future star

Sorry but that is BS. I'm not a Derozan fan by any stretch but if suddenly you're the first option, your touches go way up and defenses key in on you more than before and you don't drop off in efficiency that is a huge positive.

[j-ragg]

I think his FLOOR is a first team all defensive player who scores 12-15 PPG. I don't want to speculate on his ceiling because we all know how much potential he has.

So there's no way he won't be on the All-Defensive First Team. What's his ceiling? Best defender of all time?

[Tave]

Wiggins sets the Kansas freshman scoring record, while leading his team in points, drawing fouls at an elite rate, despite basically having no set role in Self's system:

"He dribbles like a toddler. He will never be great on offense. He can't finish. His progression is horrible. He doesn't have a killer instinct."

Jabari scores essentially the same amount of points on almost identical efficiency at Duke:

"Go-to scorer. The most complete player in the draft. The second coming of Carmelo Anthony. Born leader."


SMH, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

RealGM: you know it's possible to like both guys and talk about their relative strengths/weaknesses in a rational manner without making ridiculous attacks on the other dude, no matter which you prefer?

And if you really want a good laugh, go back and read the threads that were created after the WV and OKState games where Wiggins dropped 41 and 30.

This prisoner-of-the-moment mindset is truly infuriating at times.

[Nazrmohamed]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

Potential is important but also nature. Wiggins doesn't seem to have that alpha personality and to me a person can be raw as hell, but mentally they have to be an alpha personality in order to achieve their potential because as you say, he can do all those things right now so what real potential are we talking about here? Whats between the ears? Ok thats the case for everyone, even bums become smarter bums as time passes. But whats his personality. I just think its concerning that he was supposed to be the best player in college and even before going to Kansas there were questions about his drive and then when I watched him, don't get me wrong he didn't suck, but I just felt he needed to show me some primary option mentality a bit. I feel Parker has that. I felt like Randle had that and he's five picks down without the things you mentioned Wiggins having. So to me if you got the skills or potential, I wanna see you use it.

[East Bay Sports]

I think his FLOOR is a first team all defensive player who scores 12-15 PPG. I don't want to speculate on his ceiling because we all know how much potential he has.

So there's no way he won't be on the All-Defensive First Team. What's his ceiling? Best defender of all time?

Sure why not. He has the physical tools.

You don't think Wiggins will wind up on some All defensive teams? I don't see what is so about it, but I guess that is the 8th grade world we live in today. EMOTICONS!

[trlp1712]

People are placing too much stock into the player that he is and completely forgetting the real reason he's a top 2 pick is because of his potential.

He's a lockdown defender, that can run the floor, can shoot, dribble and finish at a decent rate AT AGE 19.

Now give this player a few years to develop, it seems unfair to describe his game and completely ignore the fact that he's going to get better, ive seen LeBron turn into shooter and post master after countless threads saying it wasn't his game.

Let me at least say, are you really worried that Wiggins after three 82 game seasons, with coaching, dieting and training couldn't be better then Luol Deng?

Potential is important but also nature. Wiggins doesn't seem to have that alpha personality and to me a person can be raw as hell, but mentally they have to be an alpha personality in order to achieve their potential because as you say, he can do all those things right now so what real potential are we talking about here? Whats between the ears? Ok thats the case for everyone, even bums become smarter bums as time passes. But whats his personality. I just think its concerning that he was supposed to be the best player in college and even before going to Kansas there were questions about his drive and then when I watched him, don't get me wrong he didn't suck, but I just felt he needed to show me some primary option mentality a bit. I feel Parker has that. I felt like Randle had that and he's five picks down without the things you mentioned Wiggins having. So to me if you got the skills or potential, I wanna see you use it.

Why does everything has tome come to some "bs" alpha whatever that some basketball fans continue to say? I'm honestly asking. I see that "alpha" mentality or whatever they call it being referenced in lots of basketball talks, especially in that cesspool of an online basketball forum that i vowed to never return to.

And sorry if it sounded like i was attacking you, I'm not, English is my second language, so sometimes i word something that sounds good to me but obviously not to a native speaker.