Better in ALL stats = better player?

[Joao Saraiva]

I would think after a Finals where we all saw the impact of Boris Diaw there would be less people going overwhelmingly yes at this question. There are a lot of things on a basketball court not measured in a box score. Now, there are a lot of things that ARE measured in a box score, but the player with the better box scores stats isn't always the better player.

Can you give me an example of 5 things that are not measured by any stat that have impact on a basketball court?

if team A is scoring twice as fast as team B, team A will have twice as many points at the end of the game (I think we just saw that in the Finals!) - so the faster a player can get his numbers, the better.

accordingly, the length of time holding the ball for each player would be one thing that is not currently measured by stats... if one guy is getting his 30 PER in less the time with the ball then another 30 PER guy, that has to be better.

the number of dribbles per point - this measures dribble efficiency - not as important as the aforementioned total time with the ball, but still a factor that determines a player's style, how much they can slow down an offense, and how easily they can mesh with other players.

one thing stats probably won't ever measure, at least probably not in our lifetimes is how much optimism or pessimism a player's presence inspires in his teammates - how we think about a situation and our attitude towards situations in life is usually the determining factor in our success or failure.. some players will inspire more confidence, effort, perseverance and mental fortitude than others.

I think the overriding idea is that there is more than one way to skin a cat... there is more than one way to get a 30 PER or a 25 PER or a 20 PER.. stats don't measure STYLE or the exploitability of anyone's style - we have to watch the games to see how that happens.

Your 1st point is about team play: not about individual play. Also LeBron got a ton of points in the 1st quarter of game 3: did it really help the Heat? They were getting beaten badly at that point. Also by saying that you're saying that 4th quarter points are not important? It all needs context. In a tight game, yes 4th quarter numbers are important.

I get the point about the PER but that's why I said things that don't show up in a box score. The usage of a player is already there. So that's not a point too.

You're right about the presence of a player and about the dribble efficiency. That is 2 things. There's not a lot a statline won't show you, basketball is the sport with better stats to look at, so I believe great players will provide great statlines, good players will provide good statlines, bad players will provide bad statlines.

Even if a player scores but he's just overshooting it will show on eFG% or ts%. If a player is just having good raw stats because he's given a small role on the team advanced stats will let you know it.

[mooncheese]

With Lebron, you can have success guarding him with Boris Diaw or Kawhi Leonard because Lebron's offensive repertoire has its limits and even though he is fast, he isn't blowing by these guys like say, a westbrook or monta ellis would... also, guys like Diaw are used to guarding big, bulky physiques so they are physically ready for Lebron... No real knock on Lebron - most guys aren't goat in all aspects of scoring so there is always a way to slow them down... Like with Durant, he never posts, so you can get away with guarding him with Chris Paul.

If you try big guys on Jordan such as Dominique Wilkins, Dennis Rodman, or Richard Dumas, he just toyed with them using skill and superior quickness.. Jordan wasn't only quick for his size - he was a true guard with Westbrook/Monta-type quickness that made him a serious mismatch for bigger defenders, as you see below.











Opposing coaches would try these bigger defenders on Jordan for a few possessions, then decide the quickness mismatch didn't make sense and put the 2-guard back on him..





Goat skill is the only way a 39-year old could thoroughly dominate and drop 41 points all on a prime Shawn Marion... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg

Plus game winner (on a prime Marion, not the Marion from 2011).






Same as MJ used to do Rodman..





Of course, put little guys on MJ and he toyed with them using skill and size.

[mooncheese]

In 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the #1 option (team leader in shot attempts) on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or no one else would've done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.

Finals-Winning Teams Since 1991 Whose #1 Options Took less than 25.56% of the Team's Shots:

3.) 2003 Spurs (Tim Duncan.. 24.38% of his team's shots)
2.) 2008 Celtics (Kevin Garnett.. 22.6%)
1.) 2014 Spurs (Tony Parker.. 20.1%.. smallest load since 1991 for a #1 option)

You can see how well-rounded those teams must have been and how difficult it would have been for the Heat to win with Lebron taking only 25.56% of the shots (which would be #4 above, for 4th smallest load since 1991).

These stats are easily verifiable at bballref by going to the Finals Series Page for any year of the Finals, such as 2014, and then clicking "Previous Season" or "Next Season" in the upper left, or using the drop-down list found under the "NBA Playoffs" tab where it lists all the years.

[Krodis]

I would think after a Finals where we all saw the impact of Boris Diaw there would be less people going overwhelmingly yes at this question. There are a lot of things on a basketball court not measured in a box score. Now, there are a lot of things that ARE measured in a box score, but the player with the better box scores stats isn't always the better player.

Can you give me an example of 5 things that are not measured by any stat that have impact on a basketball court? Can't be on D, since I told in the begining of the thread that the players would have similar impact on D.

1. Setting screens
2. Off-Ball movement
3. Floor Spacing
4. Passing that doesn't lead to assists.
5. Shot clock management.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I can't think of a situation where a player had higher raw numbers across the board (with similar defense) with higher efficiency and PER and WS/48 but had a "worse" season than the other player, not counting PS of course.

How about for playoffs? Of course for players playing more than 10 games

Playoffs are always dicey for me. Regular season everybody faces everybody. There is a not insignificant gap between Conferences right now, but everybody will still play everybody in a balanced schedule. In the playoffs, you are not only playing entirely different opponents, but you are doing so again and again and again. So you get a good matchup you could have your numbers soar over 7 straight games against them. And vice versa you run into a team with a star or defensive stopper at your position, and game after game your numbers could be depressed.

[mooncheese]

Off-ball Skill

Lebron is a good off-ball player, but a primary ballhandler at heart, which is one of the reasons he and primary ballhandler Dwayne Wade have had issues in the past (i.e. playing poorly together in 3 out of 4 Finals).. Otoh, Jordan's goatness off-ball allowed him to score in whatever capacity was necessary so teammates could play to their strengths, such as playing off-ball so Scottie could play the more ball-dominant, point-forward role.

MJ could get 50 playing exclusively off-ball, which helped him fit in with teammates while still being able to get his - as a coach, you have great flexibility building around MJ because you know that anywhere you put him on the floor will result in the same, max scoring output.






Here's MJ at age 35 over Zydrunas and Kemp in 1998, Kemp's last all-star year.. off-ball movement, two-foot leaping, in traffic... Lebron would never have dunked this.






Here's Jordan as primary ballhandler and off-ball - See how Jordan is still dangerous when he doesn't have the ball... Jordan had learned to move without the ball as early as North Carolina.. Part of Jordan's greater experience playing off-ball is his quick reactions upon the catch without thinking, as he does here.




Jordan's off-ball ability allowed him to fit in better with more ball-dominant teammates.. But off-ball goatness was just one aspect - Jordan was goat-level at every aspect of scoring - he could score 54 points in the playoffs against a Pat Riley-led elite defense ON ALL JUMPERS.... literally all jumpers... 54 points, in the playoffs, against a great defense, on all jumpers..