RealGM Top 100 List #7

[Baller2014]

Spoiler:

Baller, while I respect your posts I think it`d be best if we all kept an open mind with regards to our opinions.

Kobe is not a popular guy on realgm but to say you`d only be ready to talk him up after the top 12 means that the remaining slots will go to (in no particular order) Hakeem, Magic, LeBron, Bird, KG, and 1 more player.

That`s a bold statement and the sound of someone who`s already made up their mind no matter how the evidence or arguments are brought up in this project. Either he is the luckiest player of all time or he must`ve been doing something right to be a part of 2 completely different sets of teammates while winning consecutive multiple championships on both teams while going to 7 Finals and being victorious in 5 of them.

But let`s not derail this topic as this discussion will be good in the coming rounds.

Kobe was extremely lucky, he got put on amazing support casts and frankly underachieved with them (a lot of which was plainly his fault, as I outlined in a large, in depth post several pages ago). Magic, Lebron, Bird, Hakeem and KG were all clearly more impactful than Kobe, and I'd take Dr J as well. I can see several other players with a strong argument also. I am always open to evidence, but I'm a pretty well read guy and I can't really see what would turn me around to Kobe over any of these players. He lags clearly behind them by a non-insignificant margin.

How did Lebron do better? here's the SRS of his teams from 05-08. By 2009 I don't see how you could call his cast weak.
04 Cavs -3.07
05 Cavs 0.27 SRS
06 Cavs 2.17 SRS
07 Cavs 3.33 SRS
08 Cavs -0.53 SRS
^
That's no better than Kobe with the Smush teams.

And like I asked in the previous post, isn't leading a quality cast deep a more important factor? Because Kobe with a decent cast has had far more success.

Lebron in 2009 kicked it up another gear and became the Lebron we know today. Not that he had good support casts prior to 09 either, but he became a clearly superior player in 09. I'd have given him the MVP in 2008 too, his impact was the biggest that year, carrying his junk team to 45 wins (0-7 in games without him). Lebron's support casts in 09 and 10 were vastly worse than Kobe's in either year, but the teams still posted better regular season records (and it wasn't due to conference disparity, because they destroyed the West). Sure, his support cast got exposed in the playoffs, but that wasn't Lebron's fault. Kobe's 3rd or 4th best player in 2009/2010 could have been better than Lebron's 2nd best player (that's Pau, Bynum and Odom, heck even Artest was probably more impactful than Mo Williams or Varejao).

[Purch]

Karl Malone needs more traction here

Spoiler:

His averages for 16 years between 1986-2003

22/10/2
28/12/2
29/11/3
31/11/3
29/12/3
28/11/3
27/11/4
25/12/4
27/11/4
26/10/4
27/10/4
27/10/5
24/9/4
26/10/4
23/8/5
22/9/4
21/8/5


In the 11 straight bolded seasons from 1989-1999 he was all nba 1st team.

If you want to talk about player durability look no further than Karl Malone.

In 17 out of his 19 seasons he played 80 or more games
For comparison Kevin Garnett has only played 80 games 8 out of the 19 years of his career
Not only that but Malone accomplished this whiles playing 2,624 more playoff minutes than Garnett in his career

He's the oldest player in Nba history to win Mvp at age 35.


His longevity in the playoffs is just as impressive

22/8/1
20/10/1
30/12/2
31/16/1
25/10/2
30/13/3
29/11/3
24/10/2
27/12/3
30/13/4
27/10/4
26/11/3
26/10/3
22/11/5
27/9/3
28/9/3
20/8/5
20/7/4

That's an 18 year span in the post season

So if you guys are criticizing Magic and Bird for their durability and longevity, that same focus should be propelling Malone up in these rankings.

Also for you guys who put great value in the "player efficency stat" or "PER"rating, Malone's consistency in that statistic speaks for itself.

For 13 seasons from 1988-2001 Karl Malone was top 5 in "PER" in a league that included extremely efficient players like ; David Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem and Jordan all in their prime

1988-1989 - #5 In PER (24.4)
1989-1990- #2 In PER (27.2)
1990-1991- #5 In Per (24.8)
1991-1992- #3 in PER (25.4)
1992-1993- #3 in PER (26.2)
1993-1994- #5 in PER (22.9)
1994-1995- #5 In Per (25.1)
1995-1996- #4 in PER (26.0)
1996-1997- #1 in Per (28.9)
1997-1998- #2 in Per (27.9)
1998-1999- #2 in Per (25.6)
1999-2000- #2 in PER (27.1)
2000-2001- #4 In Per (24.7)

That shows ridiculous efficiency over such a long period of time. That very few can match

Also for you guys who seem to value win shares as a legitimate stat.. Malone was consistently elite in that as well


1988-1989 - #5 in Win Shares (15.2)
1989-1990- #4 in Win Shares (15.9)
1990-1991- #3 in Win Shares (15.5)
1991-1992- #2 in Win Shares (15.1)
1992-1993- #3 in Win Shares (15.4)
1993-1994- #4 In Win Shares (13.4)
1994-1995- #4 in Win Shares (13.8)
1995-1996- #3 in Win Shares (15.1)
1996-1997- #2 in Win Shares (16.7)
1997-1998- #1 in Win Shares (16.4)
1998-1999- #1 in Win Shares (9.6)
1999-2000- #2 in Win Shares (15.3)
2000-2001- #5 in Win Shares (13.1)

That again is 13 straight years of being top 5 in the league in Win Shares.

In Offensive win Shares he's 6th all time trailing only Jordan, Oscar, Kareem, Wilt and Stockton.

In Defensive win shares he's a 6th all time (Ahead of Garnett) only trailing Russell, Duncan,Kareem , Hakeem and Wilt

For his career he only trails Wilt Chamberlin and Kareem in total win shares, he's 3rd all time.

So for a 13 year span from age 24-37 Malone was top 5 in PER and WIN Shares every single year, whiles being top 5 in the league in Points per game every single one of those years

I think my question now becomes, is there any stretch of Garnett's career that is equal to or superior to those 13 years from Malone? If not what is the argument for Garnett over Malone actually based on? In reality Garnett's time on top of the league was very limited.

[Exodus]

LOL @ Shaq being ranked higher than Magic Johnson. smh

[Baller2014]

Take a good look at this video of Magic passing. Nobody, ever, has had court vision like this.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Dm0lZTqCc[/youtube]

I'm actually more impressed by LeBron's (2014 only) passing/court vision video:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGzihnsHyk[/youtube]

You need to watch the Magic video again on full screen more closely. What he's doing requires a far, far higher degree of skill and court vision than Lebron. Lebron's a great passer, but he's not even close to Magic. A lot of that video was just Lebron throwing Alley-oops. I have no idea how you think the two compare.

[SactoKingsFan]

Take a good look at this video of Magic passing. Nobody, ever, has had court vision like this.

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4Dm0lZTqCc[/youtube]

I'm actually more impressed by LeBron's (2014 only) passing/court vision video:

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGzihnsHyk[/youtube]

You need to watch the Magic video again on full screen more closely. What he's doing requires a far, far higher degree of skill and court vision than Lebron. Lebron's a great passer, but he's not even close to Magic. A lot of that video was just Lebron throwing Alley-oops. I have no idea how you think the two compare.

Did you watch the LeBron video? There's only a couple alley-oops in the entire video.

[Baller2014]

I watched the Lebron video. Like I said, he's an incredible passer. But what he is doing doesn't require anything like the skill of what Magic's passing required. Magic's point guard skills are on a whole other level... to anyone ever. I might be swung around to Lebron over Magic yet, Lebron has a good case here (as does Bird), but let's be real about who was the better passer with better court vision and instincts. It was Magic by miles. That doesn't mean Magic was the better player, peak wise it's Lebron for sure.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe was extremely lucky, he got put on amazing support casts and frankly underachieved with them (a lot of which was plainly his fault, as I outlined in a large, in depth post several pages ago). Magic, Lebron, Bird, Hakeem and KG were all clearly more impactful than Kobe, and I'd take Dr J as well. I can see several other players with a strong argument also. I am always open to evidence, but I'm a pretty well read guy and I can't really see what would turn me around to Kobe over any of these players. He lags clearly behind them by a non-insignificant margin.

You haven't explained yet how Kobe "underachieved". he has the best winning percentage of anyone left in the playoffs with SRS advantage(20-1). He also has a winning record even when his team doesn't have SRS advantage in the PS.

Lebron conversely has lost 3 times in his prime with SRS advantage, and only 2 times when he doesn't have it. by your own criteria, Kobe should be ahead of Lebron in this regard.

How did Lebron do better? here's the SRS of his teams from 05-08. By 2009 I don't see how you could call his cast weak.
04 Cavs -3.07
05 Cavs 0.27 SRS
06 Cavs 2.17 SRS
07 Cavs 3.33 SRS
08 Cavs -0.53 SRS
^
That's no better than Kobe with the Smush teams.

And like I asked in the previous post, isn't leading a quality cast deep a more important factor? Because Kobe with a decent cast has had far more success.

Lebron in 2009 kicked it up another gear and became the Lebron we know today. Not that he had good support casts prior to 09 either, but he became a clearly superior player in 09. I'd have given him the MVP in 2008 too, his impact was the biggest that year, carrying his junk team to 45 wins (0-7 in games without him). Lebron's support casts in 09 and 10 were vastly worse than Kobe's in either year, but the teams still posted better regular season records (and it wasn't due to conference disparity, because they destroyed the West). Sure, his support cast got exposed in the playoffs, but that wasn't Lebron's fault. Kobe's 3rd or 4th best player in 2009/2010 could have been better than Lebron's 2nd best player (that's Pau, Bynum and Odom, heck even Artest was probably more impactful than Mo Williams or Varejao).

Kobe did with just Pau, what Lebron needed Wade/Bosh/Allen to do. The only answer you seem to have is that "oh, Lebron's cast sucked", which of course it didn't. When both had weak casts, Kobe did no worse, When they both had decent squads, Kobe did better.

In terms of sheer impact, where has Lebron proven to be better? Kobe's pre-prime during the 3peat was superior to Lebron's pre-prime 05-08. Kobe's prime is 30/6/5 57% TS, and more playoff success than Prime Lebron. Lebron's whole thing is his box scores, but they don't correlate to better SRS during the season, nor better playoff runs.

Lebron played elite defense for 4-5 years 09-13, but Kobe did it from 00-09. Kobe has more great scoring years, better longevity.

[Warspite]

Question I have Re: LBJ vs Bird

By all accounts Bird hit the ground running as he came into the league later than 18 year old LBJ. I know that some state Bird could have replicated his play earlier as well, as he was allowed to come in earlier. With that said, could someone do a year by year comparison of the two or provide a link?

I really want to be sure that I am not underrating Bird here at all.

Just get 2 pillows and duct tape them to your belly and rear end and then play with vs a 6th grade girls team.

[Baller2014]

You haven't explained yet how Kobe "underachieved". he has the best winning percentage of anyone left in the playoffs with SRS advantage(20-1). He also has a winning record even when his team doesn't have SRS advantage in the PS.

Um, because your winning% is effected by who you play with, and Kobe had the best teams of anyone left? It's hardly surprising they won a lot, they had the most talent. In terms of outcomes though Kobe underachieved, sabotaging the Lakers in 03 and 04 with his antics and attitude that poisoned team chemistry, and breaking up his team and getting a GOAT coach fired, before the team had to crawl back and ask Phil to return. I am more interested in looking at results year by year than with something contextless like "overall winning %". Kobe wasn't exactly famous for his game 7 performances either, and got clocked by the 08 KG Celtics, had an easy run in 09, and barely got by v.s the older and injured Celtics in 2010 with a poor game 7 from him to boot. In 2011 his team was the favourite coming into the season and playoffs, and promptly got clobbered.

Kobe did with just Pau, what Lebron needed Wade/Bosh/Allen to do. The only answer you seem to have is that "oh, Lebron's cast sucked", which of course it didn't. When both had weak casts, Kobe did no worse, When they both had decent squads, Kobe did better.

Kobe hardly had "just" Pau, nor did Kobe "do no worse" when Lebron's casts sucked. Kobe's teams won 34-45 games in 05-07 and he led his teams (without Shaq) to a sub-500 win% from 99-04 (23-26). Lebron was leading his comparably bad teams to the best records in the NBA. In 2011 Lebron finally got good team mates, but with a sub-optimal fit and no time to gel. They still got to the finals anyway just off talent, figured out how to play together and got some depth and balance on the roster, and won 2 titles in a row. This year Lebron's support cast was worse than the good Lakers teams from 08-10, because Wade was a shell of himself, leaving only Bosh and change.

Kobe's very best season was worse than Lebron in 2008. Then in 2009 Lebron left that version of himself in the dust and kicked it up into god mode.

[rico381]

If LeBron wasn`t a victim of the Spurs giving him wide open shots, then how do you explain a FG% of 44.7 in the series when he`s still according to yourself getting the most efficient shots possible.

Here is a synopsis of his FG shooting game by game in the 2013 Finals
1. 7-16
2. 7-17
3. 7-21
4. 15-25
5. 8-22
6. 11-26
7. 12-23

Now judging by FG% isn`t the only barometer which I get, but in reality LeBron really only had 2 good games (games 4 and 7). Shooting that much poorer than in the RS means that for this series at least, the Spurs were able to take him out of his comfort zone for the majority of the series. In most circumstances this wouldn`t be viewed as a negative per say, but we are talking about ranking some of the greatest players in NBA history in this project and as a result, every detail will be scrutinized.

You`re right to say that a player shouldn`t be punished for playing well, but imho LeBron didn`t even play well, and this is without even bringing up how 2013 was quite possibly his peak season (which I will support for RS only howwever). His playoff runs in 2012 and 2014 were much better.

The Spurs weren't giving LeBron wide-open shots. They were packing the paint like crazy, especially with Wade in the game. Here's Zach Lowe on game 6.

Contrast that spacing with the state of the floor on this Heat turnover with 1:05 left in regulation, the first of three straight Heat cough-ups (including two bad ones by LeBron) that really should have cost them their season:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4awFB1vSI_g[/youtube]
Freeze the clip as Chalmers is about to commit his ill-fated blunder, and you’ll see Green has abandoned Wade to clog the lane and force Chalmers into a thread-the-needle dish instead of what Super Nintendo surely thought would be an easy floater:


[...]

Look how much harder it is for Miami — how much tricky passing and shot-making it takes — for the Heat to score with Wade on the floor:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZpmhc_19gY[/youtube]
It’s tempting to say LeBron could have simplified things early on this possession by just attacking Diaw one-on-one, but look at the floor as LeBron prepares to slice into the paint:


Duncan has left Chris Bosh to patrol the rim, and he can do that because he knows Kawhi Leonard will happily abandon Wade on the right wing to cover Bosh. It’s just tough sledding for Miami.

For the series, the Heat have scored 131.7 points per 100 possessions when James is on the floor without Wade, and just 100.8 when the two have shared the floor, per NBA.com. The Heat are minus-12 for the series, but the James–Mike Miller–Ray Allen super-shooting trio is a crazy plus-50 in just 68 minutes, per NBA.com. The James-Miller-Chalmers trio is plus-43 in just 80 minutes, and the combination of those four players is a stunning plus-49 in just 29 total minutes together, per NBA.com.

Simply put, the Heat had awful spacing, and the Spurs focused all of their attention on stopping LeBron's drive. You could find dozens of plays just like that in each game. You're taking a guy who scores at the rim with higher volume and efficiency than even the best big men, and focusing the entire defense on helping in the paint every single possession. And yet he still averaged 25-11-7 on .529 TS%. That's an incredible performance.

By the way, here's another take on the end of Game 6, since you were talking about it earlier:

What LeBron James did in the fourth quarter … holy hell. All non-Spurs fans should be glad he came through like that, even though he was indeed in attack mode almost from the opening tip, because the volume on the “WHAT IS LEBRON’S LEGACY!!!???” talk can shift down a couple of notches heading into Game 7. We can just enjoy the freaking game. Because Game 6 is part of LeBron’s legacy now; almost nothing that happens Thursday, short of some John Starks/Kenyon Martin–level choke job shooting, can take away Game 6.

James had a hand in holding Tony Parker to 6-of-23 shooting, and it’s useful to look again at those numbers — 6-of-23 — and remember them the next time you want to eviscerate James, or Kevin Durant, or Kobe Bryant, or whomever for some awful Finals shooting performance. Stars have bad games in the Finals. Everyone loves Tony Parker, and he’ll get about 1/100th of the screaming gruff LeBron or Kobe would get for a 6-of-23 performance. Parker’s little compared to those guys. He’s cute, he’s French, and we’ve been going on for five years about how criminally underrated he is. He went 6-of-23 with a chance to clinch the Spurs’ fifth title? Eh. It happens. He’s dealing with a hamstring injury, the world’s best player is hounding him like some werewolf stalking prey under a full moon, and, hey, he made some absolutely sensational shots in the last 1:30 of regulation to nearly cinch the game for his team. Forgive, forget, move on.

Sounds like Game 6 should count as one of James' good games, wouldn't you say?

[Clyde Frazier]

Some food for thought on Magic and the firing of Paul Westhead. Via Magic Johnson by David Aretha:

[andrewww]

If LeBron wasn`t a victim of the Spurs giving him wide open shots, then how do you explain a FG% of 44.7 in the series when he`s still according to yourself getting the most efficient shots possible.

Here is a synopsis of his FG shooting game by game in the 2013 Finals
1. 7-16
2. 7-17
3. 7-21
4. 15-25
5. 8-22
6. 11-26
7. 12-23

Now judging by FG% isn`t the only barometer which I get, but in reality LeBron really only had 2 good games (games 4 and 7). Shooting that much poorer than in the RS means that for this series at least, the Spurs were able to take him out of his comfort zone for the majority of the series. In most circumstances this wouldn`t be viewed as a negative per say, but we are talking about ranking some of the greatest players in NBA history in this project and as a result, every detail will be scrutinized.

You`re right to say that a player shouldn`t be punished for playing well, but imho LeBron didn`t even play well, and this is without even bringing up how 2013 was quite possibly his peak season (which I will support for RS only howwever). His playoff runs in 2012 and 2014 were much better.

The Spurs weren't giving LeBron wide-open shots. They were packing the paint like crazy, especially with Wade in the game. Here's Zach Lowe on game 6.

Contrast that spacing with the state of the floor on this Heat turnover with 1:05 left in regulation, the first of three straight Heat cough-ups (including two bad ones by LeBron) that really should have cost them their season:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4awFB1vSI_g[/youtube]
Freeze the clip as Chalmers is about to commit his ill-fated blunder, and you’ll see Green has abandoned Wade to clog the lane and force Chalmers into a thread-the-needle dish instead of what Super Nintendo surely thought would be an easy floater:


[...]

Look how much harder it is for Miami — how much tricky passing and shot-making it takes — for the Heat to score with Wade on the floor:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZpmhc_19gY[/youtube]
It’s tempting to say LeBron could have simplified things early on this possession by just attacking Diaw one-on-one, but look at the floor as LeBron prepares to slice into the paint:


Duncan has left Chris Bosh to patrol the rim, and he can do that because he knows Kawhi Leonard will happily abandon Wade on the right wing to cover Bosh. It’s just tough sledding for Miami.

For the series, the Heat have scored 131.7 points per 100 possessions when James is on the floor without Wade, and just 100.8 when the two have shared the floor, per NBA.com. The Heat are minus-12 for the series, but the James–Mike Miller–Ray Allen super-shooting trio is a crazy plus-50 in just 68 minutes, per NBA.com. The James-Miller-Chalmers trio is plus-43 in just 80 minutes, and the combination of those four players is a stunning plus-49 in just 29 total minutes together, per NBA.com.

Simply put, the Heat had awful spacing, and the Spurs focused all of their attention on stopping LeBron's drive. You could find dozens of plays just like that in each game. You're taking a guy who scores at the rim with higher volume and efficiency than even the best big men, and focusing the entire defense on helping in the paint every single possession. And yet he still averaged 25-11-7 on .529 TS%. That's an incredible performance.

By the way, here's another take on the end of Game 6, since you were talking about it earlier:

What LeBron James did in the fourth quarter … holy hell. All non-Spurs fans should be glad he came through like that, even though he was indeed in attack mode almost from the opening tip, because the volume on the “WHAT IS LEBRON’S LEGACY!!!???” talk can shift down a couple of notches heading into Game 7. We can just enjoy the freaking game. Because Game 6 is part of LeBron’s legacy now; almost nothing that happens Thursday, short of some John Starks/Kenyon Martin–level choke job shooting, can take away Game 6.

James had a hand in holding Tony Parker to 6-of-23 shooting, and it’s useful to look again at those numbers — 6-of-23 — and remember them the next time you want to eviscerate James, or Kevin Durant, or Kobe Bryant, or whomever for some awful Finals shooting performance. Stars have bad games in the Finals. Everyone loves Tony Parker, and he’ll get about 1/100th of the screaming gruff LeBron or Kobe would get for a 6-of-23 performance. Parker’s little compared to those guys. He’s cute, he’s French, and we’ve been going on for five years about how criminally underrated he is. He went 6-of-23 with a chance to clinch the Spurs’ fifth title? Eh. It happens. He’s dealing with a hamstring injury, the world’s best player is hounding him like some werewolf stalking prey under a full moon, and, hey, he made some absolutely sensational shots in the last 1:30 of regulation to nearly cinch the game for his team. Forgive, forget, move on.

Sounds like Game 6 should count as one of James' good games, wouldn't you say?

When I said open shots, I should have elaborated these as jump shots.

I dont consider .529 TS% as great because part of what makes LeBron special is his efficiency at scoring the ball and he was subpar in this series.

Again this is just a vacuum and I`m in agreement that its a close vote either way. But exaggerations of a players performance being great when it was just alright is painting an inaccurate picture imo.

Regardless, to each their own it is good discussion throughout.

[Baller2014]

I don't get why we're even talking about Magic's role in his coach being fired. Even if he was 100% responsible, it was the right move, it had no negative effect on the team... it helped the team win more

[An Unbiased Fan]

You haven't explained yet how Kobe "underachieved". he has the best winning percentage of anyone left in the playoffs with SRS advantage(20-1). He also has a winning record even when his team doesn't have SRS advantage in the PS.

Um, because your winning% is effected by who you play with, and Kobe had the best teams of anyone left? It's hardly surprising they won a lot, they had the most talent. In terms of outcomes though Kobe underachieved, sabotaging the Lakers in 03 and 04 with his antics and attitude that poisoned team chemistry, and breaking up his team and getting a GOAT coach fired, before the team had to crawl back and ask Phil to return. I am more interested in looking at results year by year than with something contextless like "overall winning %". Kobe wasn't exactly famous for his game 7 performances either, and got clocked by the 08 KG Celtics, had an easy run in 09, and barely got by v.s the older and injured Celtics in 2010 with a poor game 7 from him to boot. In 2011 his team was the favourite coming into the season and playoffs, and promptly got clobbered.

Kobe didn't sabotage his teams, that's nonsense. He had a 40+ ppg month and that historic 40+ streak just to get LA to the playoffs in 2003. In 2004 Malone goes down and they meet an ATG defense. And Kobe didn't get Phil fired, everyone know Jim Buss pushed him out, how in the world can you put that on Kobe? Shaq has openly said Kobe had nothing to do with him getting traded, that was about his contract and Doc Buss. You are literally just throwing stuff out there that isn't true. Game 7's, go look up Kobe's record.

Again, Kobe's record with SRS advantage is 20-1. The only loss was the 2011 Mavs series. Even in series without SRS advantage Kobe is 8-7, which is outstanding. He's been to 7 Finals, has 5 rings. Two seperate crews that won back2back titles. How in the World can you make a claim that he's "underachieved"? Only MJ & Russell have better playoff success rates.

Kobe hardly had "just" Pau, nor did Kobe "do no worse" when Lebron's casts sucked. Kobe's teams won 34-45 games in 05-07 and he led his teams (without Shaq) to a sub-500 win% from 99-04 (23-26). Lebron was leading his comparably bad teams to the best records in the NBA. In 2011 Lebron finally got good team mates, but with a sub-optimal fit and no time to gel. They still got to the finals anyway just off talent, figured out how to play together and got some depth and balance on the roster, and won 2 titles in a row. This year Lebron's support cast was worse than the good Lakers teams from 08-10, because Wade was a shell of himself, leaving only Bosh and change.

Kobe's very best season was worse than Lebron in 2008. Then in 2009 Lebron left that version of himself in the dust and kicked it up into god mode.

Kobe's team's SRS were on par with Lebron's. They won less game because they played in the West, and Lebron was in the East. That's why people look at SRS over win totals.

2000-2003 Kobe is better than 2005-2008 Lebron. 06-10 Kobe is on par with 09-14 Lebron , and had more success with equal casts. You are basically negating every positive Kobe has done, while excusing every shortcoming Lebron has.

[Baller2014]

Kobe didn't sabotage his teams, that's nonsense. He had a 40+ ppg month and that historic 40+ streak just to get LA to the playoffs in 2003. In 2004 Malone goes down and they meet an ATG defense. And Kobe didn't get Phil fired, everyone know Jim Buss pushed him out, how in the world can you put that on Kobe? Shaq has openly said Kobe had nothing to do with him getting traded, that was about his contract and Doc Buss. You are literally just throwing stuff out there that isn't true. Game 7's, go look up Kobe's record.

Well, you're just wrong. I made a post about this on page 3 that has pretty impressive documentation, and I've referred you to it multiple times. Kobe was looking out the door, and made it clear he didn't want to exist with Phil and Shaq anymore, so they got shown the door. There were, of course, other factors involved. But it'd be naïve to act like Kobe had no role in it.

Kobe's team's SRS were on par with Lebron's. They won less game because they played in the West, and Lebron was in the East. That's why people look at SRS over win totals.

I don't understand why you're even citing team SRS. I mean, I do, because you think it helps Kobe... but even if we cared about it as a stat (it does have some value), it would be inapplicable here because the team SRS is obviously effected by Lebron/Kobe being on the team. To use a hypothetical- if Lebron was worth +10 SRS by himself, and the rest of his team was worth -10 SRS, then that comes out to 0 SRS. It doesn't mean that Lebron's impact was therefore the same as the star of every 0 SRS team that year, because it is a statement with no context. The star of another 0 SRS team might have had only a +6 SRS impact, but had a team whose impact was only -6. Of course this is just a device I'm using to illustrate why it's misleading, we can't quantify individual SRS. It's a team stat, not an individual stat.

The claim Lebron won because he was in the East is plainly wrong. 09 and 10 Lebron, which is where he became the Lebron we know today, was destroying the West to the tune of a 49-11. You're just wrong on this.

[Colbinii]

2000-2003 Kobe is better than 2005-2008 Lebron. 06-10 Kobe is on par with 09-14 Lebron , and had more success with equal casts. You are basically negating every positive Kobe has done, while excusing every shortcoming Lebron has.

Can you rate 06-10 Kobe with 09-14 LeBron season by season? I have a hard time Putting any of Kobe's season's in the top 3.

[Basketballefan]

Vote: Magic Johnson Below is the reasoning i have used in the previous threads.

I could definitely see the arguments for Lbj over Magic but i'm not ready to put LBJ ahead of him yet. Magic may not have a large edge in longevity but i think Magic was a more mature player his first few seasons and numbers show that clearly for his 1st season 18 8 7 60TS%, vs Lbj 21 6 6 49 TS%. Yeah Lbj didn't have Kareem, Nixon, Cooper etc but regardless i couldn't see Lbj performing the way Magic did in his playoffs his rookie year especially in the finals. I mean people can argue it all they want to but LBJ didn't have a good finals performance until he was 27 years old, that's not something i can just sweep under the rug. Magic was the better passer, while Lbj is the better scorer but Magic played point his whole career so his ppg wouldn't be as high, but if his role was to be a scorer i have no doubt he could've put up 25+ on decent efficiency in his prime seasons. Lbj is the better defender no doubt but his man to man D is vastly overrated. So again, i can see the arguments for LbJ as he had the better peak but Magic was more mature as an offensive player from the getgo and his prime was still longer as of today and has the better accolades by a clear margin.

Arguably the greatest offensive player of all time, great leader, great winner, made his teammates better than anyone ever imo.

5 time champion, 3 of which he was the undisputed best player, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 4 time assist leader, 9 All nba first team selection etc

Great playoff performer beat some all time great teams such as Bird's Celtics and the Bad boy pistons, Avged 20 8 12 over his 13 year playoff career. Wins his first championship and FMVP as a rookie putting up 18 11 9 in the playoffs, with an incredible 42 15 7 game 6 clinching performance as Kareem goes down with injury and he jumps center.

Had Magic not got HIV he would've had a longer career and could've been in discussion for top 2 or even GOAT.

Knocks on magic usually consist of his longevity and his defense. Magic wasn't a great defender but i don't think he was a negative on that end and for his longevity its not great but not horrible, 13 years and he accomplished so much in that span and changed the game.

[rico381]

When I said open shots, I should have elaborated these as jump shots.

I dont consider .529 TS% as great because part of what makes LeBron special is his efficiency at scoring the ball and he was subpar in this series.

Again this is just a vacuum and I`m in agreement that its a close vote either way. But exaggerations of a players performance being great when it was just alright is painting an inaccurate picture imo.

Regardless, to each their own it is good discussion throughout.

.529 TS% isn't great, but it's not awful, especially when you're carrying the offense with such high usage. Consider his low TO rate (under 10%) and his high assists, and he finished with a 113 ORTG on 30% usage, against a Spurs team that ranked third in defensive efficiency at 101.6. Bird had a higher ORTG in only three of his 12 playoff runs. Kobe had a higher one in three of his 14. Magic's ORTGs were much higher, but the usage/efficiency tradeoff has to be considered here. And this is a cherry-picked example of a disappointing series for LeBron!

If we zoom out to the bigger picture, over LeBron's six-year extended peak, he's got a .599 TS% and a 119 ORTG on 31.1% usage in the playoffs, good for a 29.4 PER and .270 WS/48. Magic doesn't have a single playoff run at either of those numbers, and neither does Bird (who really only has two runs that hold up well at all by box score measures). Clutch playoff performer Hakeem only met those numbers once, and it was in a playoff run that lasted four games. Clutch playoff performer DIrk has never exceeded the PER number, and only exceeded the WS/48 number in a pair of first-round exits. This is practically unreachable territory, and yet this is LeBron's average level over six years and 112 playoff games of 42 mpg! The idea that someone could use playoff performance as a knock on him is beyond me.

[andrewww]

Vote: Magic Johnson Below is the reasoning i have used in the previous threads.

I could definitely see the arguments for Lbj over Magic but i'm not ready to put LBJ ahead of him yet. Magic may not have a large edge in longevity but i think Magic was a more mature player his first few seasons and numbers show that clearly for his 1st season 18 8 7 60TS%, vs Lbj 21 6 6 49 TS%. Yeah Lbj didn't have Kareem, Nixon, Cooper etc but regardless i couldn't see Lbj performing the way Magic did in his playoffs his rookie year especially in the finals. I mean people can argue it all they want to but LBJ didn't have a good finals performance until he was 27 years old, that's not something i can just sweep under the rug. Magic was the better passer, while Lbj is the better scorer but Magic played point his whole career so his ppg wouldn't be as high, but if his role was to be a scorer i have no doubt he could've put up 25+ on decent efficiency in his prime seasons. Lbj is the better defender no doubt but his man to man D is vastly overrated. So again, i can see the arguments for LbJ as he had the better peak but Magic was more mature as an offensive player from the getgo and his prime was still longer as of today and has the better accolades by a clear margin.

Arguably the greatest offensive player of all time, great leader, great winner, made his teammates better than anyone ever imo.

5 time champion, 3 of which he was the undisputed best player, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 4 time assist leader, 9 All nba first team selection etc

Great playoff performer beat some all time great teams such as Bird's Celtics and the Bad boy pistons, Avged 20 8 12 over his 13 year playoff career. Wins his first championship and FMVP as a rookie putting up 18 11 9 in the playoffs, with an incredible 42 15 7 game 6 clinching performance as Kareem goes down with injury and he jumps center.

Had Magic not got HIV he would've had a longer career and could've been in discussion for top 2 or even GOAT.

Knocks on magic usually consist of his longevity and his defense. Magic wasn't a great defender but i don't think he was a negative on that end and for his longevity its not great but not horrible, 13 years and he accomplished so much in that span and changed the game.

Solid points, although I`d like to say that in truth, Kareem was robbed of the 1980 Finals MVP despite the clinching game 6 performance. But that game punctuated just what Magic was capable of in just his rookie season. Much more impactful player from the get-go than LeBron.

[andrewww]

When I said open shots, I should have elaborated these as jump shots.

I dont consider .529 TS% as great because part of what makes LeBron special is his efficiency at scoring the ball and he was subpar in this series.

Again this is just a vacuum and I`m in agreement that its a close vote either way. But exaggerations of a players performance being great when it was just alright is painting an inaccurate picture imo.

Regardless, to each their own it is good discussion throughout.

.529 TS% isn't great, but it's not awful, especially when you're carrying the offense with such high usage. Consider his low TO rate (under 10%) and his high assists, and he finished with a 113 ORTG on 30% usage, against a Spurs team that ranked third in defensive efficiency at 101.6. Bird had a higher ORTG in only three of his 12 playoff runs. Kobe had a higher one in three of his 14. Magic's ORTGs were much higher, but the usage/efficiency tradeoff has to be considered here. And this is a cherry-picked example of a disappointing series for LeBron!

If we zoom out to the bigger picture, over LeBron's six-year extended peak, he's got a .599 TS% and a 119 ORTG on 31.1% usage in the playoffs, good for a 29.4 PER and .270 WS/48. Magic doesn't have a single playoff run at either of those numbers, and neither does Bird (who really only has two runs that hold up well at all by box score measures). Clutch playoff performer Hakeem only met those numbers once, and it was in a playoff run that lasted four games. Clutch playoff performer DIrk has never exceeded the PER number, and only exceeded the WS/48 number in a pair of first-round exits. This is practically unreachable territory, and yet this is LeBron's average level over six years and 112 playoff games of 42 mpg! The idea that someone could use playoff performance as a knock on him is beyond me.

LeBron is a dominant player, we all know that. The excuse made for him is that somehow it`s always his teammates who are letting him down while other greats are lucky to play with better teammates. That doesn`t float when you have the caliber of players around you in Wade and Bosh, not to mention a sensational super role player if there ever was one in Ray Allen. Simply put, for LeBron to be great the offense has to roll through him (in 2011 when Wade was still a co-alpha dog, LeBron was hesitance in his overall game) and very few legitimate star level players around him had a career year or anything close to that.

Meanwhile, Magic`s always getting the best out of his teammates on the offensive side of the ball. There`s a reason he`s widely regarded as the GOAT offensive player ever.

While LeBron along with defensive stalwarts like Pippen or Bobby Jones are mentioned in the same breath and rightfully so for their versatility, LeBron has never played even close to the level of consistent GOAT perimeter defense on a nightly basis. He`s beginning to get a Kobe-like reputation for dogging it on defense yet still getting the credit when it`s simly not true. At their defensive peaks, Kobe was the superior man-to-man defender while LeBron was the better help defender.