RealGM Top 100 List #22

[E-Balla]

Scottie isn't getting any traction mainly because he wasn't that good. Even with Jordan anchoring the offense he still underperformed many times. I don't see the argument for him over Ewing on either side of the ball. Offensively they are both middling efficiency guys with Scottie looking better going off the regular season and Pat looking better going off the post season and defensively I don't think anyone will argue Pippen over Pat. These guys played head to head when Jordan retired and the Knicks won in 4 with Pat outplaying Scottie on both ends.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NYK-CHI

Pippen and Ewing actually look comparable during the RS & PS, with Pip maybe taking a slight edge due to his passing/playmaking and defensive versatility.

Regular Season

88-95 Ewing RS per 100: 33.1 PTS, 14.5 TRB, 3.0 AST, 5.5 STL+BLK, 4.4 TOV
88-95 Ewing RS: 22.8 PER, .571 TS%, .376 FTr, 109 ORtg, 99 DRtg, .179 WS/48

91-98 Pippen RS Per 100: 27.5 PTS, 10.0 TRB, 8.2 AST, 4.4 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen RS: 21.2 PER, .546 TS%, .286 FTr, 112 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .185 WS/48

Postseason

88-95 Ewing PS per 100: 30.7 PTS, 14.8 TRB, 3.4 AST, 4.7 STL+BLK, 3.7 TOV
88-95 Ewing PS: 20.6 PER, .526 TS%, .335 FTr, 107 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .145 WS/48

91-98 Pippen PS per 100: 26.1 PTS, 10.8 TRB, 7.5 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen PS: 19.5 PER, .521 TS%, .370 FTr, 109 ORtg, 101 DRtg, .157 WS/48

And the 94 Bulls v Knicks series was very competitive with several close games and Pippen played well enough for the Bulls to have a chance to win the series.

I haven't decided to vote for Pippen over Ewing, but I think there should be some discussion since it's not a clear cut case of Ewing being clearly better than Pippen.

So if you give Scottie the slight offensive edge do you think the difference between the two defensively was slight? I think Pat was slightly better offensively and clearly better defensively. And I think in most people's eyes its pretty clear as to who's better.

[SactoKingsFan]

Also, another question.

Some of Stockton's numbers in the late 80s and the early 90s look phenomenal, but how highly would they look if adjusted for pace (something that I need to learn how to do)? I assume that they still would look great, but for accuracy's sake (or an attempt at it at least), I would be quite interested.

Stockton's per 100 numbers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... poss::none

1990 per 100: 23 PTS, 19.4 AST, 3.5 STL

[ChiTown6rings]

I’ve narrowed down my candidates to Ewing, Pippen and Wade. I see them as the best two-way players still available. Although I still consider Ewing a top 25 candidate, I’ve become less impressed with his prime and ability to anchor an offense. After taking a closer look at Pippen and Wade, I think I might give them the overall edge over Ewing. Like many other voters, I had downgraded Wade’s career due to significant longevity/durability concerns. However, I’ve recently started to view Wade’s great peak as strong enough to make up for his oft cited durability issues. Pippen hasn’t gained any real traction, but I see him as a legit 20-25 candidate since he was an extremely versatile defender (arguably GOAT perimeter defender) and had an underrated offensive game/ skill set.

PEAK

Top 5 ASPM Seasons
Ewing: 4.4 (90), 4.4 (94), 4.1 (92), 3.9 (89), 3.8 (91)
Pippen: 6.4 (94), 6.0 (95), 4.7 (97), 4.6 (92), 4.6 (96)
Wade: 9.9 (09), 8.8 (07), 8.3 (10), 7.3 (06), 5.9 (12)

Extended Peak Estimated Impact
Ewing: 90-94: 4.7, 4.2, 4.3, 3.5, 4.7
Pippen: 92, 94-97: 4.9, 4.8, 4.8, 4.8, 4.6
Wade: 06, 09-12: 5.1, 5.9, 5.3, 4.3, 3.8

Best Peak = Wade

10 Year Prime

10 Year Prime ASPM
Ewing (88-97): 3.1, 3.9, 4.4, 3.8, 4.1, 3.4, 4.4, 3.6, 2.3, 3.2
Pippen (91-00): 4.2, 4.6, 2.7, 6.4, 6.0, 4.6, 4.7, 4.3, 1.9, 2.4
Wade (05-14): 4.7, 7.3, 8.8, 3.9, 9.9, 8.3, 5.5, 5.9, 4.7, 2.9

10 Year Prime Estimated Impact
Ewing (88-97): 2.8, 3.9, 4.7, 4.2, 4.3, 3.5, 4.7, 3.4, 2.4, 3.2
Pippen (91-00): 4.2, 4.9, 3.2, 4.8, 4.8, 4.8, 4.6, 4.1, 2.1, 2.7
Wade (05-14): 3.9, 5.1, 5.0, 1.3, 5.9, 5.3, 4.3, 3.8, 3.6, 2.1

Best 10 Year Prime = Wade

Durability

Prime Ewing (89-94): 485 GP, 18290 MP
10 Year Prime Ewing (88-97): 800 GP, 29426 MP

Prime Pippen (91-97): 555 GP, 20994 MP
10 Year Prime Pippen (91-00): 731 GP, 27406 MP

Prime Wade (05-12): 535 GP, 20039 MP
10 Year Prime Wade (05-14): 658 GP, 24204 MP


EXTENDED PRIME

Regular Season

Spoiler:

88-95 Ewing RS per 100: 33.1 PTS, 14.5 TRB, 3.0 AST, 5.5 STL+BLK, 4.4 TOV
88-95 Ewing RS: 22.8 PER, .571 TS%, .376 FTr, 109 ORtg, 99 DRtg, .179 WS/48

91-98 Pippen RS Per 100: 27.5 PTS, 10.0 TRB, 8.2 AST, 4.4 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen RS: 21.2 PER, .546 TS%, .286 FTr, 112 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .185 WS/48

05-13 Wade RS per 100: 36.5 PTS, 7.4 TRB, 8.9 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 5.0 TOV
05-13 Wade RS: 26.3 PER, .569 TS%, .484 FTr, 112 ORtg, 103 DRtg, .204 WS/48

Best Extended Prime RS = Wade

Postseason

Spoiler:

88-95 Ewing PS per 100: 30.7 PTS, 14.8 TRB, 3.4 AST, 4.7 STL+BLK, 3.7 TOV
88-95 Ewing PS: 20.6 PER, .526 TS%, .335 FTr, 107 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .145 WS/48

91-98 Pippen PS per 100: 26.1 PTS, 10.8 TRB, 7.5 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen PS: 19.5 PER, .521 TS%, .370 FTr, 109 ORtg, 101 DRtg, .157 WS/48

05-13 Wade PS Per 100: 33.4 PTS, 7.7 TRB, 7.1 AST, 4.0 STL+BLK, 4.8 TOV
05-13 Wade PS: 23.9 PER, .556 TS%, .432 FTr, 109 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .179 WS/48

Best Extended Prime PS = Wade

Although Wade’s durability issues prevented him from leaving more of an impact during his prime, I still think Wade clearly takes the overall edge here. In addition to peaking higher, ASPM, EI, per 100 and advanced stats all suggest prime/extended prime Wade was a vastly superior playoff performer and a significantly more impactful player during the regular season than Pippen and Ewing.

VOTE #22: Dwyane Wade

Scottie isn't getting any traction mainly because he wasn't that good. Even with Jordan anchoring the offense he still underperformed many times. I don't see the argument for him over Ewing on either side of the ball. Offensively they are both middling efficiency guys with Scottie looking better going off the regular season and Pat looking better going off the post season and defensively I don't think anyone will argue Pippen over Pat. These guys played head to head when Jordan retired and the Knicks won in 4 with Pat outplaying Scottie on both ends.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NYK-CHI

Actually the Knicks won in 7 that year.

[magicmerl]

Through #123

5 EWING -- ronnymac2, ShaqAttack3234, fpliii, magicmer1, 90sAllDecade
4 MIKAN -- batmana, DQuinn1575, Warspite, Owly
3 WADE -- Basketballefan, JordansBulls, SactoKingsFan
2 FRAZIER -- penbeast0, GC Pantalones
2 STOCKTON -- FJS, trex_8063
1 NASH -- colts18

[SactoKingsFan]

Scottie isn't getting any traction mainly because he wasn't that good. Even with Jordan anchoring the offense he still underperformed many times. I don't see the argument for him over Ewing on either side of the ball. Offensively they are both middling efficiency guys with Scottie looking better going off the regular season and Pat looking better going off the post season and defensively I don't think anyone will argue Pippen over Pat. These guys played head to head when Jordan retired and the Knicks won in 4 with Pat outplaying Scottie on both ends.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#NYK-CHI

Pippen and Ewing actually look comparable during the RS & PS, with Pip maybe taking a slight edge due to his passing/playmaking and defensive versatility.

Regular Season

88-95 Ewing RS per 100: 33.1 PTS, 14.5 TRB, 3.0 AST, 5.5 STL+BLK, 4.4 TOV
88-95 Ewing RS: 22.8 PER, .571 TS%, .376 FTr, 109 ORtg, 99 DRtg, .179 WS/48

91-98 Pippen RS Per 100: 27.5 PTS, 10.0 TRB, 8.2 AST, 4.4 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen RS: 21.2 PER, .546 TS%, .286 FTr, 112 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .185 WS/48

Postseason

88-95 Ewing PS per 100: 30.7 PTS, 14.8 TRB, 3.4 AST, 4.7 STL+BLK, 3.7 TOV
88-95 Ewing PS: 20.6 PER, .526 TS%, .335 FTr, 107 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .145 WS/48

91-98 Pippen PS per 100: 26.1 PTS, 10.8 TRB, 7.5 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
91-98 Pippen PS: 19.5 PER, .521 TS%, .370 FTr, 109 ORtg, 101 DRtg, .157 WS/48

And the 94 Bulls v Knicks series was very competitive with several close games and Pippen played well enough for the Bulls to have a chance to win the series.

I haven't decided to vote for Pippen over Ewing, but I think there should be some discussion since it's not a clear cut case of Ewing being clearly better than Pippen

So if you give Scottie the slight offensive edge do you think the difference between the two defensively was slight? I think Pat was slightly better offensively and clearly better defensively. And I think in most people's eyes its pretty clear as to who's better.

I don't think Ewing's defensive edge is as big as most think. It's not like he's a top 5 all-time defender.

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[ChiTown6rings]

Also, another question.

Some of Stockton's numbers in the late 80s and the early 90s look phenomenal, but how highly would they look if adjusted for pace (something that I need to learn how to do)? I assume that they still would look great, but for accuracy's sake (or an attempt at it at least), I would be quite interested.

Stockton's per 100 numbers:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... poss::none

His output was actually very consistent. The slight bump in his regular season ppg averages in that time also coincide with him playing 37+ mpg. His 3 highest scoring years are his only 3 years over 37 mpg.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Been really busy with work.
Haven't been able to contribute much to the project but things are clearing up and I will be able to participate to a much greater degree soon.

Looking at the current candidates I see we have Mikan, Ewing, Wade, Frazier and Stockton.

I have no idea where I would rank Mikan (different era) so for now I will unfortunately have to unfairly discount him.

Wade VS Frazier is close to me. I think Wade was the greater talent but Frazier is one of my favorite All-Time players and a damn great performer himself (plus he has better longevity) so its close. For now I side with Wade.

Ewing I rate below Wade & Frazier individually but he has a sizable edge in longevity over both of them.

Stockton I think individually was less potent then the above players (especially in a weak team type vacuum) but his longevity was absolutely remarkable. I think his career value is very high.

I am going to hesitantly vote for Ewing here.
While I don't love his offensive game he was clearly a very good & impactful player who has solid longevity.
I held similar gripes when it came to both Moses & Robinson who have already been voted in.

VOTE : Ewing

[penbeast0]

Through #123

6 EWING -- ronnymac2, ShaqAttack3234, fpliii, magicmer1, 90sAllDecade, RayBan-Sematra
4 MIKAN -- batmana, DQuinn1575, Warspite, Owly


3 WADE -- Basketballefan, JordansBulls, SactoKingsFan
2 FRAZIER -- penbeast0, GC Pantalones
2 STOCKTON -- FJS, trex_8063
1 NASH -- colts18

Using magicmer1's count and adding RayBan, we have a runoff between Ewing and MIkan.

Sheesh, Mikan is just so hard to place; he's clearly the best from his era but his era issues are so tricky.

[SactoKingsFan]

Here's a question for the Mikan supporters. If Wade is getting crushed for his durability/longevity, then why is Mikan getting a pass when it comes to his lack of longevity?

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[Basketballefan]

Here's a question for the Mikan supporters. If Wade is getting crushed for his durability/longevity, then why is Mikan getting a pass when it comes to his lack of longevity?

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Thats what i've been asking as well. The arguments for Mikan havent been convincing at all.

[Basketballefan]

Runoff vote: ewing[b]

Reasons; far better longevity and better defensive player. Ewing's competition in the 90s was far stronger he faced the likes of Hakeem, drob, Alonzo etc and thats just his position, doesnt include mj, barkley malone etc.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Here is a small pro-con article about Mikan I typed up from a book I own.

Pro Mikan
-Led the league in scoring 6 times.
-The only time the Lakers missed winning a title in his seven year career was in 1951 when he broke a bone in his ankle.
-The widening of the FT circle to 12 feet was aimed primarily at Mikan.
-His best pro game was in 1952 against Rochester. He scored 61pts on 22FG (reminds me of Shaqs career high).

MVP voting
Mikan would have won 4 MVP if they gave out the award during his entire career (1950-53).

So Mikan would have won four MVP's while winning 4 out of 5 titles from 50-54 while leading the league in scoring each year.
That is extreme era dominance.

Anti Mikan
The 24-Second clock and the demise of Mikan & the Laker's.

Following the 1954 season the NBA adopted the 24 second clock thereby preventing the keep away strategy.
When the NBA added the clock Mikan was only 30 years old but he retired. His ponderous nature in getting up and down the court was outmoded. Mikan accepted a new role as GM (you didn't think Jordan was the first did you?).
After the 1956 Laker's lost 15 out of their first 20 games Mikan made a bold move by getting back into shape and activating himself as a player. He averaged 10.5ppg in 37 games in his return.

Is it fair to punish Mikan because the game was less popular when he played?
Did Mikan have the physical capabilities to go up against Chamberlain, Shaq or Russell? Of course not.
Did Mikan have the size & athletic ability of a Robinson? Of course not.

[E-Balla]

Here's a question for the Mikan supporters. If Wade is getting crushed for his durability/longevity, then why is Mikan getting a pass when it comes to his lack of longevity?

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He's way more dominant.

I'm voting Ewing in the runoff. No reason for this?

[ceiling raiser]

One more thing about Mikan. Some people hold '56 season against him. But is it really that surprising that after year and a half away from basketball superstar would play worse? Especially back then, when training and medicine was at much lower level. In fact, we can compare how his production changed after such big break with another superstar - Michael Jordan himself.

The thing is Mikan in '56 played only about 20 MPG. Mostly because of many injuries (for example he had bones broken 10 times during his playing days before first retirement), but also because medicine and training methods back then were way worse, thus so long time away from sport was more impactfull than in 90s. That's why I think per 36 minutes comparison would tell us more.

Code: Select all

Jordan   PPG   RPG   APG   R_eFG
1993   29,8   6,1   5,0   2,4
1995   24,6   6,3   4,9   -6,9
            
            
Mikan   PPG   RPG   APG   R_eFG
1954   19,9   15,7   2,7   0,8
1956   18,4   14,5   2,5   0,8


So we see that Mikan didn't decline more than prime Jordan in similar situation. In fact he declined much less, because his R_eFG stayed the same in allegedly superior league. And remember, that was just one year away from first Bill Russell's season. So once again - why some of you guys think prime and healthy Mikan wouldn't be able to be a superstar in Russell's era?

I really encourage everyone to watch tape with Mikan. I think you all would be positively shocked how quick and agile he was, what shouldn't be surprising, because in college his coach even ordered him to take dancing lessons, because he wanted him to be complete athlete. And it worked, it's seen on the game film, there are even several plays when he is dribbling the ball from backcourt to frontcourt and there's nothing awkward in that, it's actually pretty impressive for guy of his size (I'm talking not only about height, but also a weight).

And there's also (seen on the game tape available) his GREAT passing, in fact he was one of the best passing big men ever. His 2.8 APG average might not look impressive, but keep in mind it was in a time, when assists were counted differently and in pre shot clock era, when players with +6 APG were very rare (only 9 such results pre shot clock).

I'm still not sure, but the more deeply I look into Mikan, the more I'm leaning towards saying that Mikan > Walton. And I'm VERY big fan of Bill's game.

Just wondering, since Mikan is in the runoff, could you talk about his mobility and some of his scoring skillset? I don't think I've watched very much tape of him at all.

[trex_8063]

PEAK

Top 5 ASPM Seasons
Ewing: 4.4 (90), 4.4 (94), 4.1 (92), 3.9 (89), 3.8 (91)
Pippen: 6.4 (94), 6.0 (95), 4.7 (97), 4.6 (92), 4.6 (96)
Wade: 9.9 (09), 8.8 (07), 8.3 (10), 7.3 (06), 5.9 (12)

Can provide a link to source for yearly ASPM data?

Also, anybody got a link to year-by-year VORP data?

[SactoKingsFan]

PEAK

Top 5 ASPM Seasons
Ewing: 4.4 (90), 4.4 (94), 4.1 (92), 3.9 (89), 3.8 (91)
Pippen: 6.4 (94), 6.0 (95), 4.7 (97), 4.6 (92), 4.6 (96)
Wade: 9.9 (09), 8.8 (07), 8.3 (10), 7.3 (06), 5.9 (12)

Can provide a link to source for yearly ASPM data?

Also, anybody got a link to year-by-year VORP data?

Here's the link for ASPM and VORP:

http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/

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[trex_8063]

Mikan was clearly (pretty far and away) the most dominant player (in his own era) left out there. But as multiple persons have said, the strength of that pre-shotclock era makes his place difficult to reconcile. While I do think there's something to be said (credit to be given) for simply being the best around in your own time (even if you're own time was a weak era), I think era translation considerations become more important to try and have a better idea where to place him.

I'd made a thread about this a few weeks ago, to try and spark discussion about how he'd translate across different eras. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1340247&p=40903932#p40903932

Coming forward to the mid-late 80's, I ultimately kinda liked the Jeff Ruland comparison (minus Ruland's health problems): similar size/build (though Mikan likely would even be an inch or so longer, maybe a touch bigger/bulkier, too), similar mobility, similar post game, both good passers......I'd expect Mikan to be a bit better rim protector, but otherwise that was roughly the caliber of player I could envision Mikan as in the "modern" context. Which is to say: very good, but not great/dominant.

That's not to say I think he should be brushed aside from top 100 consideration; far from it. Because 1) I'm just speculating here (maybe he would be dominant in a modern context), 2) it's highly likely he'd at least be "good" in any era, and 3) as I said above, I still think some credit is warranted for dominating his own era, no matter how weak one might consider that era to be.
But these considerations do tend to push me away from giving him "top tier" status (i.e. not really a top 25 player for me).

Patrick Ewing isn't really a top 25 player for me either. I think Ewing's offensive value is being a little inflated. His overall efficiency (when you also consider things like ast and turnover rates) begins to look much like Allen Iverson, who I know will get flayed alive for his efficiency when he comes into the discussion (although data-ball metrics would suggest a significantly higher offensive value for Iverson compared to Ewing). I know context (who else were the Knicks going to turn to for scoring?) applies, though. I just don't feel like he's getting the same treatment as some others who have come before him in this project. His offensive short-comings are being politely overlooked (for the most part), imo.

However, if given a choice between Ewing and Mikan, I nonetheless have to go with Patrick Ewing as my run-off vote. The era considerations are simply too much, as well as a little bit of the longevity case (though I don't much hold Mikan's career length against him, Ewing had some pretty good---excellent, even---longevity).

[DQuinn1575]

Here's a question for the Mikan supporters. If Wade is getting crushed for his durability/longevity, then why is Mikan getting a pass when it comes to his lack of longevity?

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Actually by me he's not - his peak in his era is probably 2nd to Jordan - multiple scoring champ and league best player on multiple teams.

He has more impact on championships than most everyone

Longevity took Mikan from 2 to about 10

Era weakness took Mikan to this spot.

If you had Jordan 90-93 96 97 and 1st year of Washington. - that's about Milan's career 40 years earlier


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[Owly]

Here's a question for the Mikan supporters. If Wade is getting crushed for his durability/longevity, then why is Mikan getting a pass when it comes to his lack of longevity?

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1) Because Mikan's longevity was normal within the context of his era.
So was playing into your 30s common? Well lets see how many 30+ players there were in the season Mikan would have turned 30
http://bkref.com/tiny/glhk9
Theres a handful, none any longer at superstar level, Rochester's old core are still reasonably productive together, most of the rest aren't, many aren't playing that much, Barksdale and Clifton (due to racial barrier) had started later and would be more able (less mileage) and perhaps have more motive (financially) to keep playing. Even if you ignore all the stuff around this, apart from former MVP Davies, it seemed like the longest players went was too their early thirties.

Then look at Mikan in particular

At the end of the season, Mikan announced his retirement. He later said: "I had a family growing, and I decided to be with them. I felt it was time to get started with the professional world outside of basketball." Injuries also were a factor, as Mikan had sustained 10 broken bones and 16 stitches in his career, often having to play through these injuries.[1]

And within the context of those times again the desire to find a niche in "real" profession made sense. Mikan made good money, but unlike a Wade, he was not set for life. With aspirations in law Mikan may have felt the need to catch up with those with real jobs (though he would take a front office job in LA, though it seems as though he was still a partner in a law firm so hard to know what his priorities were). Given the pounding he had taken (both from other players and his knees), it seems he might have continued if more money had been offered, but as it was he was happy to leave on a high (and here I'll note an argument used in Russell's favour, specifically "What more did he have left to do?", and in Mikan's case given the unambiguous nature of his dominance - he had no Wilt considered his equal - it's even more powerful).

2) Because Mikan was hands down clearly the leagues best player for a lot of his main 8 year run, and each healthy year was dominant in the playoffs. Wade has roughly 8 very good seasons, 4 in contention for league's best (though one of those injury hit). Wade has 4 or 5 very good playoffs. Within the context of their times, Mikan's longevity is more impressive.

In summary Mikan was more dominant within his time at an individual and team level, and this applies again in the play-offs. His longevity is normal within the context of his era, whereas Wade's isn't (for an elite level player). If it was an all-time fantasy draft I'd take Wade, but Mikan's dominance means something to me so it's hard to put him behind those who never had a great claim to being the game's best player (this is somewhat of an oversimplifcation, and Wade was exceptional at his peak and certainly had a claim some years but the year he was having his strongest case - by PER and WARP-W% - he got injured; and too be clear at this point it's not generally bad, Ewing has no years by some of the more visible metrics - PER, WS/48, Win Shares, xRAPM - in the top 5). I'm not sure the "getting a pass" language is helpful, but I'm not sure that Mikan has, and within the context of his era (the typical length of career and the roughness of the game and demands on the body), and then also specifically his achievements, his body/injuries, his desire for a home life and perhaps his professional aspirations I think his lasting as he did and retiring when he did makes sense. I've considered others, and criteria will differ, but my present thinking is Mikan might look incongruous amongst players who weren't dominant, who didn't transecend the game etc.

post edited to correct typo/formatting and added minor addendum

[Clyde Frazier]

I noticed mikan didn't make the 2011 list. I'm assuming pre-shot clock era players weren't considered for that one? Will be interesting to see where these other guys place (or if they place at all):

Ed Macauley
Neil Johnston
Dolph Schayes