Thank you fpliii! Here's my take on several players based on the data you provided:
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Dr JCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1976-77 2940 4,1 -1,9 6,0
1977-78 2429 1,1 0,5 0,6
1978-79 2802 0,6 0,7 -0,1
1979-80 2812 0,9 -2,0 3,0
1980-81 2874 -0,5 6,2 -6,7
1981-82 2789 9,2 -0,8 10,0
1982-83 2421 7,2 -3,1 10,3
1983-84 2683 7,0 2,6 4,4
1984-85 2535 -1,3 1,9 -3,2
1985-86 2474 4,9 0,3 4,6
1986-87 1918 0,4 4,2 -3,8
I don’t like what I see here ;] Late 70s numbers might be explained by bad team fit or knees, but ’80 and – especially - ’81 (WTF happened here?) seasons also don’t look good. Around +10 net in his two best years is very good result, but is that enough to be considered top 15 player of all time?
Erving also doesn’t look that impressive on defense as I thought. Definitely wasn’t liability on that end of the floor, but also nothing special here (whathis STL and BLK numbers might suggest), he looks more like around average defender.
Overall I’m very disappointed with Doc’s numbers and I would have to reconsider my opinion about him and rank him lower.
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BarkleyCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1984-85 2347 0,7 -1,2 1,9
1985-86 2952 8,2 -2,3 10,6
1986-87 2740 3,2 -4,7 7,9
1987-88 3170 4,2 1,4 2,7
1988-89 3088 10,6 -0,4 11,0
1989-90 3085 8,9 0,6 8,3
1990-91 2498 11,9 3,1 8,8
1991-92 2881 14,3 8,3 6,0
1993-94 2298 ? ? 6,8
1994-95 2382 ? ? 6,8
1995-96 2632 ? ? 7,8
1996-97 2065 ? ? 6,4
1997-98 2245 ? ? 6,8
1998-99 1522 ? ? 5,9
1999-00 620 ? ? 0,5
(note: for the sake of consistency from ’97 to ’14 on/off net is calculated the same way as for seasons prior to ’97, so using team pace from basketball-reference, team and player minutes, team and opponents points and player raw +/-)
That’s basically whole Barkley’s career except of ’93 – what probably was his the best season, but I think not that much better than his peak in Phily.
What we see here is that at the beginning of his career Barkley had positive influence on defense. He regressed later, when was demotivated with bad team situation and gained weight. Injuries also are important factor here, especially in mid/early 90s.
Offensively it’s exactly what was expected: Sir Charles was amazing on that end of the floor, but most of his career he wasn’t that great overall player, because of his defense. I think talent was definitely there to consistently play at least ok defense, but his attitude was his biggest enemy. He and Shaq are IMO two the most wasted talents in last 30 years. With better work ethic O’Neal would have been arguably GOAT and Barkley easily top10 player ever.
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Bobby JonesCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1978-79 2304 0,7 -2,7 3,4
1979-80 2125 5,3 -3,1 8,4
1980-81 2046 3,8 -7,0 10,8
1981-82 2181 1,1 -3,1 4,2
1982-83 1749 9,7 -1,3 11,0
1983-84 1761 5,5 -2,1 7,6
1984-85 1633 8,4 -2,0 10,4
1985-86 1519 1,1 -2,7 3,8
I considered Jones as a little bit overrated player, but these numbers will definitely change may opinion about him. He basically looks like Manu, but with better balance between offense and defense. Really nothing bad I can tell here about Jones. Rosters and team strategy changed but his impact was still there on BOTH ends of the floor until very last season of his career. VERY impressive.
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CheeksCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1978-79 2409 -3,1 -2,6 -0,5
1979-80 2623 -3,0 -6,8 3,8
1980-81 2415 1,0 -2,9 3,8
1981-82 2498 1,6 -4,5 6,1
1982-83 2465 2,9 -11,2 14,1
1983-84 2494 5,6 0,1 5,5
1984-85 2616 10,4 -3,6 14,1
1985-86 3270 13,8 -6,5 20,3
1986-87 2624 0,9 -1,7 2,6
1987-88 2871 0,5 2,0 -1,4
1988-89 2298 5,0 7,1 -2,1
You were thinking that Blaylock’s numbers were impressive? Then look at Cheeks’! Great defensive point guard who also was good (and sometimes VERY good) on offense. And his ’86 on/off net is one of the best results among all players with +/- data available. That’s basically peak KG or LeBron territory and seems like it wasn’a a fluke, because in ’85 or ’83 Cheeks’ net was also great.
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Caldwell JonesCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1976-77 2023 -7,9 -9,4 1,5
1977-78 1636 -2,6 -0,3 -2,3
1978-79 2171 -2,5 -5,8 3,3
1979-80 2771 -10,5 -5,4 -5,1
1980-81 2639 -9,8 -1,1 -8,7
1981-82 2446 -1,0 -1,8 0,8
Probably one of the worst offensive players ever and sometimes even his good/very good defense wasn’t enough to make him player with overall positive impact.
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MosesCode: Select all
YEAR MIN ORTG DRTG NET
1982-83 2922 8,2 -7,4 15,6
1983-84 2613 10,4 7,1 3,3
1984-85 2957 18,8 -2,8 21,7
1985-86 2706 8,9 1,8 7,2
1993-94 618 -7,1 -2,1 -5,0
Very inconsistent results year by year, so I’m not sure what to think about them. But no doubt Moses was great on offense and his +18.8 ortg and net +21.7 in ’85 is GOAT level stuff. But defensively there’s a lot of noise. In one year he looks like all defensive level center, while very next one like the worst defender in the NBA. Any thoughts?