RealGM Top 100 List #59

[ceiling raiser]

Has there been any discussion of Sheed recently? How does he fit into the conversation here?

[SactoKingsFan]

I'm not quite ready to support Sheed as a serious candidate. Not sure he should get in before Ben Wallace. IMO, you'd have to disregard Sheed's outbursts and techs (all time leader, 41 in 01) to view him as a top candidate over the guys currently being discussed.

Sent from my LG G2

[penbeast0]

Haven't decided who I'm voting for, but I've narrowed it down to 6 candidates:

Bigs: Lanier, Thurmond

Wings: Hill, Carter/Wilkins, Manu

Anyone else think Grant Hill should get in soon?

Sent from my LG G2

Interested in a comparison of Grant Hill v. Shawn Marion . . . to me it's pretty close but not sure if that's a generally shared opinion.

[Quotatious]

Anyone else think Grant Hill should get in soon?

I think his prime was better than Carter's, but I'll still vote for Vince ahead of him because VC's prime was longer (which at least makes up for inferior quality), and his longevity in terms of both games and minutes played is better.

That being said, Grant should make the top 65.

[Joao Saraiva]

My vote goes to Dennis Rodman.

He is one of the best rebounders of all time and maybe the best forward on defense of all time.

Lead the league in RPG 7 times and 8 times in TRB%. 6 times equal or above 15 RPG, peaking at an incredible 18.7! That is really amazing.

Two times DPOY, 5 times NBA champion, 7 times in the 1st NBA defensive team.

We've seen a lot of votes for Hayes lately, we already have Mutombo in, but I am more impressed with the impact of Dennis Rodman.

If there is a guy that should be voted in based on D and rebounding it's Dennis Rodman.

[SactoKingsFan]

Haven't decided who I'm voting for, but I've narrowed it down to 6 candidates:

Bigs: Lanier, Thurmond

Wings: Hill, Carter/Wilkins, Manu

Anyone else think Grant Hill should get in soon?

Sent from my LG G2

Interested in a comparison of Grant Hill v. Shawn Marion . . . to me it's pretty close but not sure if that's a generally shared opinion.

I think I'm higher on Marion than most, but I'd give the edge to Hill since he peaked higher, produced multiple top 5-10 seasons and had a more diverse skill set. I'll try to do a Hill v Marion comparison tomorrow before I vote.

Anyone else think Grant Hill should get in soon?

I think his prime was better than Carter's, but I'll still vote for Vince ahead of him because VC's prime was longer (which at least makes up for inferior quality), and his longevity in terms of both games and minutes played is better.

That being said, Grant should make the top 65.

Although VC has a clear longevity edge, I think Hill's role player seasons in PHO were valuable enough to narrow the longevity gap to the point where it's not an immense advantage for Carter. It's pretty close, but I'll probably vote for Hill before Vince since he peaked higher, had a more impressive prime (5 elite seasons) and was more of an all around player during his prime.

[Clyde Frazier]

Through post #26:

Sidney Moncrief -- penbeast0

Bob Lanier -- trex_8063, Owly, Quotatious

Vince Carter -- ronnymac2

Dominique Wilkins (yes, with an “i”…) -- JordansBulls

Dennis Rodman -- Joao Saraiva

[Moonbeam]

I'll cast another vote for Sam Jones. I think his scoring was an important element to the Celtics' dynasty. Clearly defense was the biggest factor, but do they win championships in the following seasons without Jones?

1962: Team leading 28 points in 2-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (Heinsohn with 25, Cousy with 21)
1962: 27 points in 3-point overtime victory over the Lakers in Game 7 (Russell had 30)
1963: Team leading 47 points in 11-point victory over Cincinnati in Game 7 (Smith next with 19)
1965: Team leading 37 points in 1-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (Havlicek next with 26)
1966: Team leading 34 points in 9-point victory over Cincinnati in closeout Game 5 (Havlicek next with 23)
1966: 22 points in 2-point grind-it-out victory over Lakers in Game 7 (Russell had 25, everyone else shot very poorly)
1968: Team leading 22 points in 4-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (balanced scoring with Havlicek next with 21, Siegfried with 18 and Howell with 17)
1969: 24 points in 2-point victory over Lakers in Game 7 in his very last game (Havlicek led the way with 26 and Em Bryant chipped in 20)

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Manu Ginobili

Same reasoning.

I was rather tempted to go for Squid here, but quite literally his longevity issue makes him someone who if Ginobili really bothers you, it's hard to see a great case for Moncrief either.

[Moonbeam]

Vote: Manu Ginobili

Same reasoning.

I was rather tempted to go for Squid here, but quite literally his longevity issue makes him someone who if Ginobili really bothers you, it's hard to see a great case for Moncrief either.

Both of those guys are no my radar, as well as Lanier, Nique and Vince.

[penbeast0]

Through post #26:

Sidney Moncrief -- penbeast0

Bob Lanier -- trex_8063, Owly, Quotatious

Vince Carter -- ronnymac2

Dominique Wilkins (yes, with an “i”…) -- JordansBulls

Dennis Rodman -- Joao Saraiva

Manu Ginobili -- Doctor MJ

Sam Jones -- Moonbeam

Well, Lanier is in the runoff and no other candidate has two votes . . . sheesh.

Of the non-Squidly candidates, I am torn between Manu and Sam Jones. Both winners, both relatively low star power factor relative to their production, both pretty damn good. I think between the two, Sam Jones's career impresses me more . . . more duration, more separation from his peers at the time (despite not winning the accolades) . . . tough choice but I'll change my vote to Sam Jones and set up the runoff.

[ronnymac2]

Runoff Vote: Bob Lanier

For the first 700 games of his career, he played in perhaps the Golden Age of the center position and averaged 22/11 on 50 percent shooting while being one of the finest free throw shooting Cs ever. Good passer. He had some strong playoff runs and some solid defensive campaigns.

The in the 1980s, to finish his career, he becomes a sub-30 MPG enforcer on some extremely talented MIL teams. I think he had some really nice role player impact there. Even made one more All-Star team.

Great prime, healthy longevity, valuable skillset that lasted, and played truly great competition. KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Reed, Thurmond, Walton, Gilmore, Malone, Unseld, Hayes, Parish...he went up against them all at one point or another.

[tsherkin]

Vote Bob Lanier

Not too many two-way bigs remaining; not the lengthiest prim or broadest palette of achievements, but he looks like the best remaining. Lots of great candidates left, but Lanier is my choice here. I like his offense and focus over Rodman, like his D over someone like Wilkins, etc.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Some year's top 100 list discussions probably defines "top". I missed that discussion. The NBA hall of fame may have discussed their criteria. Have bothered to look for that.

If Drazen Petrovic is in the NBA Hall of fame then they rank tragic early deaths above NBA career longevity.


My top 100 criteria
1 Could they play well in any era after one year adjusting to the rule interpretation changes
2 How high was their playoff peak over two or more series.
3 How high was their playoff peak
4 How high was their regular season peak
5 how many rings do they have
6 Were they ever top ten during some season.
7 longevity of a quality career.

Obviously I am ranking longevity of a quality career far lower in my definition of "Top" than most people in these top 100 threads are ranking their consideration of longevity.

Bob Lanier vs Sam Jones. I think Lanier could play well in the NBA right now. Lanier might even be better now than he was in his own time because the current NBA is not used to defending quality low post scorers. I don't know what happened to choke off the supply of quality low post scorers to the current NBA.

Also despite legalizing the zone I see more space under the rim now for Lanier to work with than I saw when Lanier played because the current quality outside shooting is unclogging the paint.

I don't know If Sam Jones game would work in the current NBA. I appreciaciate Sam Jones backboard bank shots from near the base line. His shooting percentage was very good for his era and is OK for a primary option on team offense in any era. Primary options usually have a lower shooting percentage because they get extra attention on defense. In Sam Jones era primary options got less extra attention because it was very much a real man to man era except under the rim where there would be help defenders.

I don't respect the quality of Sam Jones' defenders. I am not impressed with Sam jones' athleticism. I don't know if Sam Jones could get playing time in the current NBA.

Grant Hill and Bernard King would have gotten into my top 40 list based on their peaks.

Vince Carter and Dominque Wilkins seem like good choices here.

I am not sure if Rasheed Wallace makes my top 100 list. Somebody said that they put Ben Wallace above Rasheed Wallace which makes me think they are thinking of Rasheed Wallace as a Piston. I might put Ben Wallace above Rasheed Wallace but Rasheed Wallace's peak is in Portland. If Rasheed Wallace gets in my top 100 list it is for what he did in Portland despite being thrown out of games for arguing with referees.

[Clyde Frazier]

Runoff vote - Bob Lanier

Ultimately couldn’t come to a decision before the runoff, but was leaning lanier anyway. Not in love with his durability in his prime, but he really did have impressive production, and overall decent longevity. I also like how he went out in his last season with a relative bang, playing a role at 35 yrs old in MIL’s conf finals run.

REG SEASON
13.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.6 APG, .7 SPG, .7 BPG, 57.2% FG, 70.8% FT, 60.7% TS, .160 WS/48

PLAYOFFS
12.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 3.4 APG, .7 SPG, .6 BPG, 48% FG, 88.6% FT, 53.3% TS, .109 WS/48

I also think i might go jones over carter / nique, but still not quite convinced. Will probably be my focus in this next thread assuming lanier gets in.

[SactoKingsFan]

If Drazen Petrovic is in the NBA Hall of fame then they rank tragic early deaths above NBA career longevity.

Petrovic's in the Basketball HOF for his international career.

Sent from my LG G2

[penbeast0]

Looks like an easy win for Bigfoot. On to #60!

[SactoKingsFan]

Run-off vote: Bob Lanier

Was leaning Lanier or Hill. Going with Lanier over Jones in the run-off since I think his skill set is much more portable.

Sent from my LG G2