Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[jcsunsfan]

Bogdanovic won his first MVP of the week honor after Top 16 Round 11 when he torched EA7 Emporio Armani Milan for 25 points, 4 assists and 2 steals and a performance index rating of 32 in a 98-77 victory that clinched Fenerbahce’s first playoff berth since 2008. ... He was also among the top three in scoring (10.7 ppg., third), three-pointers made (second), assists (first), steals (0.8 spg., second) and fouls drawn (2.5, third) among all Rising Star Trophy-eligible players this season.

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/5xr5u88astihvwuj/euroleague-rising-star-trophy-bogdan-bogdanovic-fenerbahce-ulker-istanbul


looks legit to me

Take the rookie of the year award for example - you are a rookie when you enter the league and only for that season. Or most improved player - you're showing promise, elevating your game and even making into all-NBA team. All these means that next year you are out of question for MIP.
The same should be with Rising Star and that is the reason why it can only be considered as indicator that potential is there. Bogdan deserved it (when he is eligible for it and that's my main reproach) but it doesn't mean that much for him in this phase of his career and fans shouldn't fetishize it.

That's not correct. It totally depends on what the award is supposed to be. Basically the Rising Star award is for the top European player under 22 (can't turn 22 before July 1st). So there is no reason why a player should not be able to win it more than once. Its not even really about potential. It is simply the best player under 22 years old.

The Rookie of the Year Award can only be won once, by definition of the award. The MIP could be won more than once, but it would be very hard to improve more than anyone else for two years in a row.

[jcsunsfan]

Gallo is basically Tom Chambers. He is a little thicker and more powerful, not quite as fast, but the strengths and weaknesses are almost exactly the same. He would be a great pick up. But is he available?

[Wannabe MEP]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

Ok, nice summary. I disagree, but +1 for a well thought-out, balanced take. Here's why I disagree...

I like this core:

• 1) Bledsoe
• 2) -
• 3) -
• 4) -
• 5) Chandler/Len

I don't know if it could ever win a title...but it's worth a shot. Athleticism and defense at the 1 and 5. The Bledsoe-Chandler pick-and-roll is gonna attack the rim ferociously. Len gets to keep developing at an appropriate pace, working behind a fantastic mentor. What's not to like? Yep, let's give this thing a shot.

So now, suppose we have a blank slate for the rest of the roster...suppose that Bled/Chandler/Len is our core, and we can fill in however we want. How do we fill in the 2, 3, and 4? In my opinion, the answer is, "defense, athleticism, some slashing/offensive creativity, and LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of shooting." You're starting two guys who love to attack the rim, but they need space to get there. Chandler has already won a title -- when he was surrounded by shooters. A clogged paint for a Bledsoe-Chandler pick-and-roll is a terrible idea.

Markieff is FAR from the ideal four.

1. He's not a true stretch big. He can sorta/kinda shoot threes, but his release is slow, and he seems to prefer to get inside more. But Bledsoe and Chandler aren't gonna give him much spacing help, so there's just not room inside for his game. He hurts their pick-and-roll, and they hurt his inside game. That's why a ton of his effectiveness came a) when he was playing next to Channing Frye, and b) when he's been the 5. When Chandler and Len are healthy, there are no minutes left for Markieff at the 5.
2. He's not very athletic. Bledsoe/Chandler gives us an athletic edge. Ideally, the other players on the court a) pull defenders out of the way with their shooting threat, and/or b) also bring an athletic edge so that we're keeping the pressure on teams; keeping them off-balance with our quickness. Markieff isn't very good at either one of those things.
3. He's a ball-stopper. If we're trying to attack with pick-and-rolls and athleticism, there's nothing worse than a guy who kills ball-movement. If you get the ball (and you're not a pick-and-roll ball-handler), shoot it, pass it, or attack off the dribble. Immediately. Markieff's never played that way. That's not the only way to play...but I think it's the only way to play if you have Bledsoe and Chandler on the court.

If we're committing to Markieff, we're committing to this core:

• 1) Bledsoe
• 2) -
• 3) -
• 4) Markieff
• 5) Chandler/Len

Now, we don't have any data on Bledsoe-Markieff-Chandler. Bledsoe-Markieff-Len was +4.4 last year. Not bad. Not in the right stratosphere to threaten for a title.

For comparison:

• Curry-Lee-Bogut +9.2 (2013-2014)
• Curry-Draymond-Bogut +20.3 (2014-2015)

Swap in Chandler for Len, perhaps Bledsoe and Markieff continue to develop, maybe we improve a lot at the 2 and 3 spots, maybe the team chemistry rises: I could definitely see that +4.4 going up quite a bit. If everything works out magically, it might even surpass 2013-2014 Curry-Lee-Bogut levels someday. Which was just good enough to win three playoff games that season . It never, ever approaches that +20.3. I don't care who the 2 and 3 are: it's not gonna happen.

Is Gallo the solution? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's worth taking a f***ing shot. He makes us interesting.

But part of it is getting Markieff the hell out of the way. Because there's no way we're interesting with Markieff starting at the 4. Markieff basically guarantees that we stay right in that #7-11 sweet-spot: at best, we're just good enough to receive the honor of getting thrashed by GS, SA, or OKC in the 1st round.

[jcsunsfan]

Let me just say that ANYONE has to be concerned about Gallo's health issues regardless of training staff. He had a major ACL injury. Those often do reoccur (see Carson Palmer) and physical therapy is not going to make much difference in preventing it.

That and the fact that he would be a 1 year rental (no guarantee he will sign here again) work against trading for Gallo. In fact, the wiser move might be to see how he looks this year and then sign him as a FA next year if we like what we see. We will not have had to give up anything for him and we would pay the same for his next deal either way.

What would you have to give up for Gallo anyway? Kieff, Archie and a pick?

[BobbieL]

I like Gallo a LOT, but I'd be hesitant moving Kieff for him. If you view Gallo as a better player than Kieff, I don't think you could argue that he's so much better that it warrants trading a productive player we have locked up on a great contract for a guy who could get some crazy stupid max deal next summer from a team that's desperate for above-average free agents(Sacramento, anyone?).

Still, Gallo makes a ton of sense. I'm not so concerned about his health issues with our training staff, and the Chandler/Len duo at Center alleviates a lot of my concerns about Gallo getting demolished playing the 4.

I wouldn't do that deal UNLESS Markieff really wants to get the hell out of here after we dumped his bro. If he comes to training camp ticked off and he's clearly not giving his best effort, then I'll drive him to Sky Harbor myself if it meant Gallo coming here.

Ok, nice summary. I disagree, but +1 for a well thought-out, balanced take. Here's why I disagree...

I like this core:

• 1) Bledsoe
• 2) -
• 3) -
• 4) -
• 5) Chandler/Len

I don't know if it could ever win a title...but it's worth a shot. Athleticism and defense at the 1 and 5. The Bledsoe-Chandler pick-and-roll is gonna attack the rim ferociously. Len gets to keep developing at an appropriate pace, working behind a fantastic mentor. What's not to like? Yep, let's give this thing a shot.

So now, suppose we have a blank slate for the rest of the roster...suppose that Bled/Chandler/Len is our core, and we can fill in however we want. How do we fill in the 2, 3, and 4? In my opinion, the answer is, "defense, athleticism, some slashing/offensive creativity, and LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of shooting." You're starting two guys who love to attack the rim, but they need space to get there. Chandler has already won a title -- when he was surrounded by shooters. A clogged paint for a Bledsoe-Chandler pick-and-roll is a terrible idea.

Markieff is FAR from the ideal four.

1. He's not a true stretch big. He can sorta/kinda shoot threes, but his release is slow, and he seems to prefer to get inside more. But Bledsoe and Chandler aren't gonna give him much spacing help, so there's just not room inside for his game. He hurts their pick-and-roll, and they hurt his inside game. That's why a ton of his effectiveness came a) when he was playing next to Channing Frye, and b) when he's been the 5. When Chandler and Len are healthy, there are no minutes left for Markieff at the 5.
2. He's not very athletic. Bledsoe/Chandler gives us an athletic edge. Ideally, the other players on the court a) pull defenders out of the way with their shooting threat, and/or b) also bring an athletic edge so that we're keeping the pressure on teams; keeping them off-balance with our quickness. Markieff isn't very good at either one of those things.
3. He's a ball-stopper. If we're trying to attack with pick-and-rolls and athleticism, there's nothing worse than a guy who kills ball-movement. If you get the ball (and you're not a pick-and-roll ball-handler), shoot it, pass it, or attack off the dribble. Immediately. Markieff's never played that way. That's not the only way to play...but I think it's the only way to play if you have Bledsoe and Chandler on the court.

If we're committing to Markieff, we're committing to this core:

• 1) Bledsoe
• 2) -
• 3) -
• 4) Markieff
• 5) Chandler/Len

Now, we don't have any data on Bledsoe-Markieff-Chandler. Bledsoe-Markieff-Len was +4.4 last year. Not bad. Not in the right stratosphere to threaten for a title.

For comparison:

• Curry-Lee-Bogut +9.2 (2013-2014)
• 2014-2015 Curry-Draymond-Bogut +20.3 (2014-2015)

Swap in Chandler for Len, perhaps Bledsoe and Markieff continue to develop, maybe we improve a lot at the 2 and 3 spots, maybe the team chemistry rises: I could definitely see that +4.4 going up quite a bit. If everything works out magically, it might even surpass 2013-2014 Curry-Lee-Bogut levels someday. Which was just good enough to win three playoff games that season . It never, ever approaches that +20.3. I don't care who the 2 and 3 are: it's not gonna happen.

Is Gallo the solution? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's worth taking a f***ing shot. He makes us interesting.

But part of it is getting Markieff the hell out of the way. Because there's no way we're interesting with Markieff starting at the 4. Markieff basically guarantees that we stay right in that #7-11 sweet-spot: at best, we're just good enough to receive the honor of getting thrashed by GS, SA, or OKC in the 1st round.

Very good summation. And I agree, Gallo might make this team more interesting and make the Suns a top 6 team. Markieff may or may not work. If healhy, Gallo probably helps more.

One other thing, Weems, Price and Knight have not signed. But I think there is an exception that Weems would fit under if the Suns are up against the cap (meaning, trading Gallo for Morris/McNeal) eats into the cap space. The team signs Mirko with the leftover cap space. Signs Weems with the exception of $2.8m; signs Price or the veterans minimum and finally signs Knight with Bird Rights.

I am not sure if Markieff fits the Nuggets but I think I would trade Gallo for Kieff for the reasons you mentioned. The NBA is a different game now. Either figure it out or stay behind.

[DirtyDez]

Gallinari's agent needs to stop creating accounts on the Suns' board. You're busted!

[Saberestar]

I don't think we are gonna trade for Gallinari because we are talking here about it...you know that McDonough works in the shadows and he always surprises us.

[tdjm]

1. He's not a true stretch big. He can sorta/kinda shoot threes, but his release is slow, and he seems to prefer to get inside more. But Bledsoe and Chandler aren't gonna give him much spacing help, so there's just not room inside for his game. He hurts their pick-and-roll, and they hurt his inside game. That's why a ton of his effectiveness came a) when he was playing next to Channing Frye, and b) when he's been the 5. When Chandler and Len are healthy, there are no minutes left for Markieff at the 5.
2. He's not very athletic. Bledsoe/Chandler gives us an athletic edge. Ideally, the other players on the court a) pull defenders out of the way with their shooting threat, and/or b) also bring an athletic edge so that we're keeping the pressure on teams; keeping them off-balance with our quickness. Markieff isn't very good at either one of those things.
3. He's a ball-stopper. If we're trying to attack with pick-and-rolls and athleticism, there's nothing worse than a guy who kills ball-movement. If you get the ball (and you're not a pick-and-roll ball-handler), shoot it, pass it, or attack off the dribble. Immediately. Markieff's never played that way. That's not the only way to play...but I think it's the only way to play if you have Bledsoe and Chandler on the court.

1. Millsap didn't have a reliable three point shot until '13-'14 at age 28, which was his eighth season in the league. It took Channing Frye until year 5 at age 26 to get an NBA three pointer. It took Sheed until age 26 (year 6) to get the inklings of a 3 going, and he really didn't get it cranking until year 7. Big guys take a non-trivial amount of time to craft their three point shot, it's probably the item he can improve the most within 1-3 years. Also, if he wants to learn how to do it from Sheed himself (taken <1hr ago)...https://instagram.com/p/5K7YFFQAwF/?taken-by=keefmorris11

2.Indeed not very athletic

3. Most of the actual ball movement killing he does is on post ups which frequently kill or momentarily slow down movement regardless. It's Jeff calling for him to post up as much as he does, I'd hesitate to put all the blame on Keef for that. Personally, I'd be much happier using him in the pick and roll and having him catch the ball in the middle of the floor since pretty much any area on the court is triple threat position for him. He's one of the best shooters from 3-10 in the league, he's one of the best off-one-or-two dribble shooters in the league, and he posts one of the highest ast%'s for power forwards - he should be getting the ball, diving towards the rim, and either pulling up, taking it to the rack, or dishing off (he had great chemistry with both Len and Wright for lobs, he'll have it with Chandler, too).

I wouldn't be so quick to punish Markieff for one of Hornacek's biggest (imo) mistakes as coach. Jeff needs to get more creative and stop having him post up except on mismatches


-----------------------

As far as Gallinari goes, I still have not heard a single compelling reason to trade for him instead of pursuing him in free agency next year. I'd be down if he costs us trash like Tucker and a second, but that is not going to happen. Giving real value for Gallo would be a huge spew.

[AtheJ415]

Anyone have a confirmed date for McNeal? I've read 15th on here, 21st on Brightside. I'm going to get all Foolishness in here if his deal gets guaranteed.

[blank_38]

Anyone have a confirmed date for McNeal? I've read 15th on here, 21st on Brightside. I'm going to get all Foolishness in here if his deal gets guaranteed.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EricPincus/status/591113301834215424[/tweet]

if you can't see the embedded tweet, it's July 21st.

[franksredhot]

Bald spot don't lie.

[Qwigglez]

I'd rather go after Nikola Mirotic than Gallo, but we'd most likely have to give up multiple first rounders to get him. Or maybe just trade PJ Tucker

[Qwigglez]

Spoiler:

Bald spot don't lie.

Man I hope Sheed gives the boys some sound advice on how to control their temper. I hope he also gives them some basketball tips, lol.

[MrTwister]

OK. A few things here. First, thanks for posting. Obviously English is not your first language, yet you are jumping right into the discussion. You probably have a perspective that most of here do not. So thank you.

Second, I would think that being named as the European Rising Star two years in a row would count as being "monster." I get the impression that statistical comparisons are lower in Europe because of the style of play and especially for younger players because of the fact that it is much harder for younger players to get minutes on the floor.

Third. I highly doubt that having huge numbers is the primary reason why Bogdan would come to the NBA. The primary issue will be skill development and effectiveness.

Do you remember the last time when Pick was actually right? He puts a tons of posts with that magical 'sources say' and how many of them happen to be true eventually? He has questionable credibility, at least.

You're just two clicks away from Bogdan's stats in EL this season. There is nothing 'monster' there. He simply didn't get the ball as much as he liked. Combo with Goudelock hit the wall as these two demand exactly the same - ball and space to create (Goudelock almost only for himslef, Bogdan for his teammates too). He certainly had more than a few really good games on both ends of the floor, but the whole season went to adapting and finding a role for himself. How Pick put it, it seems that Suns are expecting very much just to give him a chance to try his luck in the NBA, and that's ridiculous because almost 3/4 of draftees take two or more years in the league to step up.

This European rising star award is a special story - what is the point of awarding the same player two years in a row? He already established himself as a young star in previous year and EL should have looked at other young players who just got those minutes to show their potential.

i understand that the EL Rising Star award is voted on by head coaches.

mirotic also won back to back a cpl years ago.

I'd like to try to clear some air between those 2 posts.Bogdan obviously had monster season while playing in Partizan and deservedly won Rising star award.He was high-usage, first option, volume guy which carried his team to some big victories over EL powerhouses.He was doing everything, shooting, passing, defending, hiting clutch shots, tl:dr he was having breakout season.

Last year in Fenerbahce (not underdog team like Partizan but more of a powerhouse),much deeper team,where he had smaller role, his usage and ppg took a hit but shooting percentages remained the same.He was contributor but not as big as season before.And thats probably why he think that 2nd award hold no ground for having "monster" season.Bogdan came as surprise winner despite having good season as some fans believed(me included) that Dario Saric is a lock for that award.He actually progressed during the season and played huge role in playoffs, in his first EL season.

I believe Bogdan is NBA bound in 2016/17 regardless of him having big season or not.From what i've heard they(Suns FO) liked him enough to bring him right away but he already signed contract with Fenerbahce.Eurobasket is gonna come soon, maybe even some preparation games with Serbian NT so Suns fans will get a chance to watch him again soon enough.

[thamadkant]

Spoiler:

Bald spot don't lie.

Man I hope Sheed gives the boys some sound advice on how to control their temper. I hope he also gives them some basketball tips, lol.

Sheed is the worst person to give tips for temper. If it wasnt for a strong willed and discipline team and leadership in Billups, Hamilton, Wallace.... and Brown. Sheed would be worse.

He is an AMAZING player, would be perfect today with his defense, post play and stretch 4 skills... but needs a coach that he succumbs to and a veteran team to hold him down.

[Qwigglez]

Maybe Sheed can give them tips on how to channel their anger into playing better basketball is what I meant.

[Saberestar]

Spoiler:

Bald spot don't lie.

Man I hope Sheed gives the boys some sound advice on how to control their temper. I hope he also gives them some basketball tips, lol.

Can you imagine that Sheed gives them advices on how to control their temper?? Rasheed?!! Yess, of course, ..call Metta World Peace too, he is another good influence too.

[thamadkant]

Bogdanovic is my other favourite prospect (Goodwin is the other if it wasnt obvious)

Perfect size for a SF/SG role, either off the bench or starter.

Hence there is a reason Goodwin is played as a PG during the second half of the season in plenty of games.
He replicates Bledsoe, while Bledsoe is resting.

PG: Bledsoe / Goodwin / Knight
SG: Knight / Booker / Bogdanovic / Goodwin
SF: Warren / Bogdanovic / Booker

Thats the rotation I see, assuming no trades.

But I can also see...

PG: Knight / Goodwin / FA
SG: Bogdanovic / Booker / Goodwin
SF: Warren / Bogdanovic
Cheap contracts still, to allow to fit a couple of MAX FAs in 2016 to play SF and PF.

Hence maybe... just maybe, Bledsoe is still on the block... now especially that Suns missed on Aldridge.
Not saying it'll happen but the option is there.

[Qwigglez]

While some players are boozing it up in Vegas (PJ), Brandon Knight is putting in work over the offseason.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EOzaebK-nw[/youtube]

[Wannabe MEP]

...blablabla...I don't understand advanced stats ...blablabla...when I don't understand something, it makes me angry ...blablabla...complex stuff makes my brain hurt ...blablabla...where's Charles Barkley? I can understand him ...

The fact is, I, and others, would rather have Mirza than Gallinari on this team.

Dude, the debate's over. It was sorta interesting a few years ago, but it's over now.

No one thinks APM/RAPM and lineup data are the be-all and end-all of statistics that automatically answer all questions and cure cancer. But no one with basketball chops just outright dismisses them anymore either. Well, except you, Charles Barkley...and the Knicks and Lakers. Enjoy that crowd.