Horford won't sign a Contract Extension before next summer

[MaceCase]

Oh we could conceed that the whole world is an option, of course the likelihood and common sense tends to temper such expectations and then reality destroys all of such.

A) No, they would not have ended up at the same place...thus why one option wasn't executed either on that transaction or any subsequent transactions where they could have still achieved the goal of a sign and trade.

B) the appeal to authority fallacy is of course, still a fallacy. Deeks has expertise in contracts, not specifically the CBA. Given that I and especially Hawksfanatic over on Hawksquawk and Peachetreehoops plus a slew of other people have corrected even Larry Coon, the actual foremost expect on the CBA, amongst a slew of other "experts" before... I think that I'm rather confident in the summary given by the actual NBA (oh, look my authority is grander than your authority) and know that even God can make mistakes, your entire existence as a case in point.

[Jamaaliver]

...even God can make mistakes, your entire existence as a case in point.

Dude.

You gotta CALM DOWN.

Seriously. Deep breaths.

Be cool.

To quote my good friend, RIP2137....might I suggest you take a minute. Walk away from the keyboard and RELAX

There's a lot of hostility there that doesn't appear to be basketball related. I don't know what's going on with you, but I promise it will get better.

Seriously. All jokes aside: Hang in there.

We'll have plenty of time to discuss basketball once the season starts.

[MaceCase]

I understand NY/NJ/Philly cats are very combative & abrasive. But calm down, man.

People are allowed to have opinions. It's okay. I promise.

Relax. Hug your wife. Play with your kids. Have some wine.

Grown-ups are allowed to interact without attacking each other out of spite...or boredom...or just general dislike.

(NOTE: The thought of you studying, obsessively, endlessly, incessantly over all of my posts and writings pleases me more than you can imagine. You're like one of my apostles!!!

Seriously, man. Go home. Make love to your wife. Hang with the fam.

Save the anger and frustration for the Regular Season.

If you honestly believe you're smarter, more connected than a guy regarded as one of the most knowledgeable humans on Earth in CBA specifics...knock yourself out.

I look forward to the response he gives you. Seriously.

PS It's spelled minutiae. That's the plural form and proper usage.

How about you just cut the cute ****. Don't take lil passive aggressive pot shots then run when they confront you directly. How about you "relax" that.

[Jamaaliver]

How about you just cut the cute ****. Don't take lil passive aggressive pot shots then run when they confront you directly. How about you "relax" that.

It's just a long way from, "I wish we had gotten more in trade for Joe Johnson" to "Your entire existence is one of God's mistakes."

It's just unnecessary. That much disdain over a hypotheticals on a sports blog?

Let's both relax.

And be cool. Like Philip Michael Thomas on Miami Vice.

[MaceCase]

It was also long way to go from "we got a lot more for one of the worst contracts in NBA history than you are claiming" to you trying to dismiss my pointing this out by categorizing me to some place of origin, labeling a stereotype on top that I imagine wasn't meant to be inoffensive, suggesting that I go "relax" by having sex with my supposed spouse or having a drink, and, of course, peppering your posts with emojis that I'm sure were meant to denote an entirely respectful tone.

Apparently condescension is only cool when you're the one applying it to others, otherwise everyone else should just "relax".

Hypotheticals are fine, sure, it's just perplexing why one feels the need to go the route of changing historical facts in order to achieve the goals of said hypotheticals. This often comes across as being disingenuous especially given in the grand context of you attempting to establish the premise of "nothing". Could the Hawks have acquired Kyle through a slew of other means? I'm sure, it doesn't change the fact that his acquisition was a direct result of the Joe Johnson trade though.

[jayu70]

1. If memory serves me correctly we couldn't trade just a 2nd rounder for Korver since we didn't have cap space to absorb his $5 million dollar contract.

2. A SnT with Hinrich would mean we would have to pay him more than he was worth to make salaries match Korver's $5 million or include a player which is added salary for Bulls. Kirk signed a 2yr/$6 mil deal.

No Joe trade, no trade exception, no Korver.

Hello, Jayu70. I appreciate your contribution to the board.

Cards on the table. This line of thinking isn't my own. I actually did some research and found a few places (tweets/whispers) that Hawks and Bulls actually did consider a Sign & Trade. Bulls fans and beat writers all lamented after the fact that signing Hinrich outright instead of doing the sign & trade limited what moves CHI could make moving forward. The trade exception CHI received in exchange for KK ultimately went unused. A fact Bulls fans are very aware of.

That $6 million contract figure is incorrect, as the final contract numbers were closer to 2 years and just under $8 million.

My larger point which seems to have gotten lost in this: JJ was recently recognized as the single best Hawk player of the last decade. A sentiment I agree with. But his salary made it necessary to move him. We didn't get equal value for him. We got expirings and pick swaps and a trade exception. This is disappointing. Especially when Brooklyn 4 months earlier (in a fit of desperation) traded a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace.

Ferry did well to move JJ's contract. I give him full credit for that. But he made a huge mistake in not trading Josh Smith when his stock was high. Then letting him walk away for nothing a year later. I don't want Horford walking away for nothing next year. That would be even more difficult to recover from.

But again, the entire point of the thread is that while I do think Horford comes back on a max salary next summer....there exists the possibility he could be wooed away.

In addition, as much as I love AL. I'm not certain making him a max player gets us closer to a championship. Paying Horford and Millsap a combined salary around 50% of our cap number seems a risky proposition.

1. You are correct the $6mil I posted is his current deal.
2. Joe may be the best Hawk in the past 10 years but in the NBA landscape he was always a 'Robin' who got payed like Batman. Let's call it what it was: it was a salary dump by the Hawks and unfortunately there is no getting equal value in a salary dump. At least list the entire trade details, we did get a 1st round pick from Brooklyn in 2013 (via Houston) which was used on Bebe (which turned out to be a bad pick). Regarding the TPE, if they had let it expire and not use it I could see your beef but they didn't, it was used to acquire Kyle Korver (and we all know what his contribution has been.
3. I do agree that I wanted and hoped DF would move Josh, but the rumored offers for him from the Bucks (only team that I remember) DF declined, which I'm glad he did. Offering Udoh, Udrih and Luc Richard would not have cleared any salary and limited our option in signing Millsap.
4. Do I want to pay Al a max deal - ideally NO, but it's the going rate, if we don't pay him someone else gladly will. Our drive to a championship will be determined by how well our current crop of young guys develop.

[Jamaaliver]

1. You are correct the $6mil I posted is his current deal.

2. Joe may be the best Hawk in the past 10 years but in the NBA landscape he was always a 'Robin' who got payed like Batman. Let's call it what it was: it was a salary dump by the Hawks and unfortunately there is no getting equal value in a salary dump. At least list the entire trade details, we did get a 1st round pick from Brooklyn in 2013 (via Houston) which was used on Bebe (which turned out to be a bad pick). Regarding the TPE, if they had let it expire and not use it I could see your beef but they didn't, it was used to acquire Kyle Korver (and we all know what his contribution has been.

3. I do agree that I wanted and hoped DF would move Josh, but the rumored offers for him from the Bucks (only team that I remember) DF declined, which I'm glad he did. Offering Udoh, Udrih and Luc Richard would not have cleared any salary and limited our option in signing Millsap.

4. Do I want to pay Al a max deal - ideally NO, but it's the going rate, if we don't pay him someone else gladly will. Our drive to a championship will be determined by how well our current crop of young guys develop.

All of these are good points.

I love the acquisition of Tiago. And Tavares looks like he might actually be a real stud down the line.

Any thoughts on us being fiscally responsible and letting Horford walk in favor of allowing Tiago and Tavares to serve as the future Centers of this team for drastically less money?

[jayu70]

1. You are correct the $6mil I posted is his current deal.

2. Joe may be the best Hawk in the past 10 years but in the NBA landscape he was always a 'Robin' who got payed like Batman. Let's call it what it was: it was a salary dump by the Hawks and unfortunately there is no getting equal value in a salary dump. At least list the entire trade details, we did get a 1st round pick from Brooklyn in 2013 (via Houston) which was used on Bebe (which turned out to be a bad pick). Regarding the TPE, if they had let it expire and not use it I could see your beef but they didn't, it was used to acquire Kyle Korver (and we all know what his contribution has been.

3. I do agree that I wanted and hoped DF would move Josh, but the rumored offers for him from the Bucks (only team that I remember) DF declined, which I'm glad he did. Offering Udoh, Udrih and Luc Richard would not have cleared any salary and limited our option in signing Millsap.

4. Do I want to pay Al a max deal - ideally NO, but it's the going rate, if we don't pay him someone else gladly will. Our drive to a championship will be determined by how well our current crop of young guys develop.

All of these are good points.

I love the acquisition of Tiago. And Tavares looks like he might actually be a real stud down the line.

Any thoughts on us being fiscally responsible and letting Horford walk in favor of allowing Tiago and Tavares to serve as the future Centers of this team for drastically less money?

I love Tiago's acquisition as well and I'm excited about Tavares' potential.
If it's just about being fiscally responsible my questions would be:
1. How many games will Tiago actually play, he has some injury concerns
2. Will Tavares be ready for big minutes as a viable back up next season (I would hope so but I at least need to see him in actual NBA games)
3. It would depend on what other centers that are available in next free agency (Roy Hibbert I know is one I know off hand but I would prefer to pay Al)
4. In lieu of letting him walk, I would prefer to trade him to a Western conference Team that's trying real hard to make the playoffs in he tough West. Teams Like:
a. Utah for Favors, he's locked in for the next 3 years. Pair Al at PF with Gobert at C.
b. Kings for Cousins (yeah I know, head case), but I might take the chance or re-route him to another team and get something else
c. Pelicans - not sure who interests me
d. Timberwolves - not sure who they'd be willing to give up who we would want.


For the record - I'd prefer to keep Al.

[dlb731]

When it comes to making trades, I look at the start line..

While trading Al for Favors would work out financially for us, the question is why would Utah trade for him? Favors numbers are actually better than Als, and Al is going to want north of 20 mil a year on a new contract.

.. Now maybe a horford/schroeder for Favors/Burke might be a good start...

[ATL Boy]

Umm wow. This thread got way out of hand, quickly.

[jayu70]

When it comes to making trades, I look at the start line..

While trading Al for Favors would work out financially for us, the question is why would Utah trade for him? Favors numbers are actually better than Als, and Al is going to want north of 20 mil a year on a new contract.

.. Now maybe a horford/schroeder for Favors/Burke might be a good start...

The start is, Al is the best player in the deal, why add Dennis who is also better than Burke?
The supposition/hypothetical is Utah wants to make the playoffs next year, they need a veteran, Al provides and improves that chance more than Favors does.

[Jamaaliver]

Furthermore, why would the Knicks trade a guaranteed under contract superstar for Durant for half a year? Durant would have to wink wink nudge nudge agree to an extension which IIRC he cant really do. It would be a HUGE RISK for the Knicks.

This is the line of thinking I had in mind when I mentioned NYK trading Carmelo:

The New York Knicks aren't ready to engage in trade talks involving Carmelo Anthony, but Zach Lowe reports "they're getting closer."

When Anthony signed his deal in July of 2014, Adrian Wojnarowski reported that the belief within his camp was it was better to take the money from the Knicks and he could attempt to be traded if they were unable to become contenders.

Lowe followed up on the initial report by agreeing with Chris Herring's statement that the Knicks will discuss trading Anthony if they struggle as they did during the 14-15 season.

Anthony has a no-trade clause and a trade kicker in his deal.

Here

They'll get what they can for the long rebuild in any potential trade. But if they could get a star player on an expiring deal IN HIS PRIME, I suspect they'd strongly consider that move and let NYC & Phil Jackson bank on re-signing that player in the weak East playing next to a budding, young superstar.

I want AL to stay...but a three team trade sending AL to OKC, Durant to NYC and Carmelo to ATL would be beneficial to all three teams.

Even a two way trade of Horford and picks for Carmelo could drastically improve both teams' prospects moving forward.

[PandaKidd]

you would trade AH for ball hog , AGING and injured Carmelo Anthony?

Im sorry, I would NOT. DUde hes going to be making 30 million a year until hes 35.

Melo doesnt fit in here, that would be a terrible trade for us and a great trade for NYK, they would get supreme value,younger player, better contract, etc.

Where would Horford play in OKC? Next to Ibaka and Kanter?

Pipe dreams my friend, pipe dreams.

[Jamaaliver]

Where would Horford play in OKC? Next to Ibaka and Kanter?

Pipe dreams my friend, pipe dreams.

Probably. But Horford would be the best Big man on that team. Easily. He can mesh with Ibaka's elite D or with Enes's lackadaisical defense.

you would trade AH for ball hog , AGING and injured Carmelo Anthony? Im sorry, I would NOT. DUde hes going to be making 30 million a year until hes 35.Melo doesnt fit in here, that would be a terrible trade for us and a great trade for NYK, they would get supreme value,younger player, better contract, etc.

If we get a sense Horford is leaving next summer...maybe.

I ranted against us getting Carmelo last summer. but with a clear lack of perimeter scoring, and a defensive Center in Tiago nearby, he could thrive on a vet team with tons of shooting and an efficient offense.

Tiago
Millsap
Carmelo
Thabo
Teague

^That might be the most talented Hawks team I've ever seen. Scoring, defense, shooting, rebounding.
And if we re-sign Horford at the super-max...he'd be making as much as Carmelo while avg drastically fewer points.

Melo needs to win to save his legacy. Let's tap into that desperation. cause the group we have now can't score in the playoffs.

[PandaKidd]

Are we ignoring the fact that Melo is a ball stopper, that everyone on that list would be infinetly worse playing next to Melo. That that lineup doesnt offer a lot of scoring at all out side of Melos perimeter shooting......

[Jamaaliver]

Are we ignoring the fact that Melo is a ball stopper, that everyone on that list would be infinitely worse playing next to Melo. That that lineup doesnt offer a lot of scoring at all out side of Melos perimeter shooting......

Very fair points.

I just think Melo is desperate to be relevant in this league. And seeing us win 60 games with scrubs and role players...and us having the Coach of the Year, I suspect he'd be willing to sacrifice to be a part of that. Be content to just close out tight games...take/make big shots like Pierce.

But It's all academics and hypotheticals.

[PandaKidd]

I really dont think Melo cares, he wanted the money, he got it. He doesnt care about being relevant, hes always been a ME FIRST type guy.

If he was so desperate to be relevant he would have left NY and taken a 20% Paycut to play on a different team like CHI / HOU, etc. 127 million and the **** house knicks, or 100 million and the Bulls/Rockets?

[jayu70]

1. We'd have to give up more that just Al to match Melo's salary
2. I'm not helping NYK get KD
3. I'd rather let Al walk for NOTHING than trade for Melo - sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make (see Josh Smith for Bucks garbage)

[Jamaaliver]

1. We'd have to give up more that just Al to match Melo's salary
2. I'm not helping NYK get KD
3. I'd rather let Al walk for NOTHING than trade for Melo - sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make (see Josh Smith for Bucks garbage)

Hey, if Danny Ferry goes through with deal, there's a good chance Giannis Antetokoumpo would be an Atlanta Hawk today.

That'd be a wonderful piece to trade or build around.

[jayu70]

1. We'd have to give up more that just Al to match Melo's salary
2. I'm not helping NYK get KD
3. I'd rather let Al walk for NOTHING than trade for Melo - sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make (see Josh Smith for Bucks garbage)

Hey, if Danny Ferry goes through with deal, there's a good chance Giannis Antetokoumpo would be an Atlanta Hawk today.

That'd be a wonderful piece to trade or build around.

How do you figure that? You have no idea what our record would be if we had traded Josh for the Bucks garbage at the trade deadline and where we would be picking in the lottery.
If DF had fired LD as soon as the season concluded instead of taking him on his scouting trips, we could have had Giannis.
LD went to the Bucks and stole Giannis from DF - that I fault DF for.