Peak Project: #2

[PaulieWal]

All good points but anyone making a point about LeBron "marginalizing" Love/Bosh is not being honest. Both went from a 1st option to 3rd options. I'd like to see what a 3rd option on a good team is supposed to average.

Tim Hardaway, 1991 Warriors, 22.9 ppg

Umm...Hardaway was taking the most shots on that team (18.9).

For reference LeBron took 17.8 in 13, 17.6 in 14, and 18.5 in 14. Not a very good example.

[drza]

All good points but anyone making a point about LeBron "marginalizing" Love/Bosh is not being honest. Both went from a 1st option to 3rd options. I'd like to see what a 3rd option on a good team is supposed to average.

You're making the exact same point I'm always making when someone says that LeBron marginalizes bigmen. I'm proud that others are now using the exact same argument I made.

My argument wouldn't be that LeBron marginalizes big men...or marginalizes anyone, per se. My argument would be that a team sporting that much combined talent should be able to translate it into a dominant unit. The 80s Lakers or Celtics on offense. The early 00s Mavs offense, the mid-00s Suns offense. Oscar and Kareem. Sporting a whole lot of offensive talent around an all-history offensive player should result in an all-history offensive unit.

Same on defense. Duncan and Robinson overlap a bunch, but put the two together and the defense was ridiculous. Put Ben and Sheed Wallace together with a Prince thrown in, and the Pistons defense went nuts. Excess talent around an all-history player SHOULD lead to insanity mode.

My "issue" with LeBron at this level isn't that Kyrie's/Love's numbers went down...or that Wade's/Bosh's numbers went down, as individuals. My issue is that we've now seen LeBron as part of two different talent-rich big 3s over the past 5 years, in his prime, and on a team-level it appears that added talent leads to diminishing returns at a higher rate than it does with other mega stars. This isn't an issue with LeBron in general, but if we're talking about for the 2nd greatest peak of all time then I think it's worthy of discussion. Especially as a counter-point to the usual criticism that sometimes stats may be over-used. Really defining the issue is a qualitative exercise, but it's interesting to me to see that the phenomenon can be quantified at least to some extent using the available +/- data.

[Jim Naismith]

All good points but anyone making a point about LeBron "marginalizing" Love/Bosh is not being honest. Both went from a 1st option to 3rd options. I'd like to see what a 3rd option on a good team is supposed to average.

Tim Hardaway, 1991 Warriors, 22.9 ppg

Umm...Hardaway was taking the most shots on that team (18.9).

For reference LeBron took 17.8 in 13, 17.6 in 14, and 18.5 in 14. Not a very good example.

By FGA, Chris Mullin (25.7 PPG) is the third option(!)

[PaulieWal]

Tim Hardaway, 1991 Warriors, 22.9 ppg

Umm...Hardaway was taking the most shots on that team (18.9).

For reference LeBron took 17.8 in 13, 17.6 in 14, and 18.5 in 14. Not a very good example.

By FGA, Chris Mullin (25.7 PPG) is the third option(!)

And he was still taking 17.7 shots which is around what LeBron had in Miami. So it's not really a good example. None of those guys are on LeBron's level as a scorer or Wade for that matter. So if you dump Bosh on MJ's Bulls you expect Bosh and MJ to both take approximately same number of shots?

[SideshowBob]

91 Warriors were playing at a 103.6 pace, full 9.7 possessions higher than the 2015 league average of 93.9 and 10.3 higher than the 15 Cavaliers.

[GoldenFrieza21]

1. Wilt Chamberlain 1967

Still going with this. I will quote my reasoning from the previous thread but I am pretty confident about this. What he brought to the table is basically a combination of the guys I am voting for the 2 and 3 spots: Shaq and LeBron. The rim protection, post presence and rebounding of Shaq with the playmaking, versatility, and triple-double threat of LeBron.

I don't understand how people can ignore what he was doing. The stuff he had done that season has never been done before and will never be done again.

.683 FG%: only person to ever beat that was Wilt himself, on 10 less ppg.
24 rpg: only Wilt and Russell ever beat this.
7.8 apg as a center: again, only Wilt beat this.
21/29/9 in the Playoffs

The criticism I see is that WIlt's numbers did not lead to results but Jesus didn't it do so this year? 68-13 and the best offense in league history before the 3 point line?

I think it's a calamity that Jordan was voted over him but I'm willing to look past it. Shaq and LeBron however just don't bring enough to the table to be considered, for me at eleast.

2. Shaq 2000
3. LeBron 2009

I think the 2013 and 2009 regular seasons were about equal, potentially 2013 was a shade better. But the Playoffs make a pretty big difference. At this level, when you're looking at guys like Jordan/Shaq who can put up 30 ppg on 60% TS in their sleep, or Wilt, who will score on 65% FG on slightly less volume, LeBron's relatively inefficiency in the 2013 Playoffs makes him look bad. Still easily the best season by a player since 2000 Shaq not including LeBron 2009, but it would hurt him in this company so I'm putting 2009 in.

I am slo thinking about Hakeem 1994. Very close between Shaq, James and him.

Edit: I also want to talk about what Wilt did to Russ in 1967. Imagine if when LeBron and Durant faced off in the 2012 finals, LeBron put up 35/10/8 on 55%. That is roughly the analogue of the performance Wilt put up against his greatest positional rival and the second best player in the league. People talk about Jordan vs Magic in 1991 or Jordan vs Drex is 1992, why not discuss how badly Wilt destroyed and outplayed an absolutely elite defensive center and the possible GOAT in this 5 game series?

[E-Balla]

LeBron isn't really stopping Love. Really Love should be the 2nd option, not Irving. Love was arguably a top 5-10 player in 2014. I am not sure why Irving has been made the 2nd guy there, it should be Love IMO and Irving should be the 3rd wheel at least for now until LeBron gets older.

With Lebron on the floor Irving and Love share that second option spot. Kyrie only averages 18/3/5 per 36 with Lebron on the floor (very Mo Williams-ish) and Love averages 17/10/3 per 36 while only taking 0.5 less TSA per 36 than Kyrie. Kyrie gets all of his points when he's out there by himself. Love with Irving off the floor and Lebron on the floor averages 18.6 pp36 but his attempts don't rise his efficiency does.

But eballa, teams don't work like that.

LeBron averaged 18.5 shots last year, Kyrie 16.5, and Love 12.7 which to me is insane given how much better I think Love is better than Irving. Sure you can bring up their per 36 numbers together but teams usually play with a defined hierarchy offensively, especially when you have a load of talent like that. The bottom line is both Bosh and Love went from 1st options to 3rd options. That's a huge difference. Now Bosh was should never have been the 2nd option (maybe in 2014) but Love obviously should be.

LeBron has less to do with their numbers, it's just the nature of the beast.

That's why Bosh as a 3rd option works, at least he can play good defense. I am not sure what value Love has a 3rd offensive option.

Why mention the shot breakdown without going in depth into when and how they got those looks? Kyrie on this team is a better first option without Lebron on the floor than Love so he gets the touches and becomes the second option. When all of the big three are on the floor Love and Kyrie share the second option role.

[E-Balla]

Hmm, the idea that Shaq is somehow more portable than Lebron because of there being more great wing players seems like kind of a load of baloney. For his particular era it may be true, but across the history of basketball it just isn't the case. Easy anecdotal evidence is players mentioned so far in these threads.

Guards/wings- MJ/Lebron/Magic(kind of)

Bigs- Shaq/Wilt/Kareem/Russell/Hakeem/Robinson/Duncan/KG(kind of)

But we aren't just talking about grouping top 10 ATG players together so this is asinine and we are speaking strictly offensively here. According to BBR there have been 89 22+ PPG seasons from bigmen that took under 50 3PA and 221 22+ PPG seasons for Gs (I used 22 as the standard because IMO 22+ is what I would call a great scoring year since plenty of meh scorers have 20-21 ppg seasons) since the 1980 season. Anecdotal evidence is just that and not helpful in this case.

I was never speaking strictly offensively and it wasn't implied either. Obviously the great big men we are hypothetically pairing Lebron with should be adding more defensive and less offensive value when compared to pairing him with Wade.

This might be the first era in history where dominant wingmen are more common than dominant bigs, and somehow that makes Shaq more portable than Lebron. I don't believe it for a second, in any era but the one we're living in Lebron is the more portable player.

Offense was implied since it was what we were talking about to start. Go read the first posts that sparked this discussion Shaq's offense vs Lebron's offense is the argument right now.

[PaulieWal]

With Lebron on the floor Irving and Love share that second option spot. Kyrie only averages 18/3/5 per 36 with Lebron on the floor (very Mo Williams-ish) and Love averages 17/10/3 per 36 while only taking 0.5 less TSA per 36 than Kyrie. Kyrie gets all of his points when he's out there by himself. Love with Irving off the floor and Lebron on the floor averages 18.6 pp36 but his attempts don't rise his efficiency does.

But eballa, teams don't work like that.

LeBron averaged 18.5 shots last year, Kyrie 16.5, and Love 12.7 which to me is insane given how much better I think Love is better than Irving. Sure you can bring up their per 36 numbers together but teams usually play with a defined hierarchy offensively, especially when you have a load of talent like that. The bottom line is both Bosh and Love went from 1st options to 3rd options. That's a huge difference. Now Bosh was should never have been the 2nd option (maybe in 2014) but Love obviously should be.

LeBron has less to do with their numbers, it's just the nature of the beast.

That's why Bosh as a 3rd option works, at least he can play good defense. I am not sure what value Love has a 3rd offensive option.

Why mention the shot breakdown without going in depth into when and how they got those looks? Kyrie on this team is a better first option without Lebron on the floor than Love so he gets the touches and becomes the second option. When all of the big three are on the floor Love and Kyrie share the second option role.

No, the breakdown is helpful but it doesn't dispute what I said. Love is averaging 12.7 shots after averaging 18.5 in 2014 (which is what LeBron took last year as the 1st option). It just goes to show that he went from 1st option to the 3rd option, again not much to do with LeBron "marginalizing" him. Even if Kyrie is getting most of his shots when LeBron is off the floor that's only because he's #2 in their established hierarchy right now. I don't see why Kyrie is a better option when LeBron's off. It should be Love.

[E-Balla]

But eballa, teams don't work like that.

LeBron averaged 18.5 shots last year, Kyrie 16.5, and Love 12.7 which to me is insane given how much better I think Love is better than Irving. Sure you can bring up their per 36 numbers together but teams usually play with a defined hierarchy offensively, especially when you have a load of talent like that. The bottom line is both Bosh and Love went from 1st options to 3rd options. That's a huge difference. Now Bosh was should never have been the 2nd option (maybe in 2014) but Love obviously should be.

LeBron has less to do with their numbers, it's just the nature of the beast.

That's why Bosh as a 3rd option works, at least he can play good defense. I am not sure what value Love has a 3rd offensive option.

Why mention the shot breakdown without going in depth into when and how they got those looks? Kyrie on this team is a better first option without Lebron on the floor than Love so he gets the touches and becomes the second option. When all of the big three are on the floor Love and Kyrie share the second option role.

No, the breakdown is helpful but it doesn't dispute what I said. Love is averaging 12.7 shots after averaging 18.5 in 2014 (which is what LeBron took last year as the 1st option). It just goes to show that he went from 1st option to the 3rd option, again not much to do with LeBron "marginalizing" him. Even if Kyrie is getting most of his shots when LeBron is off the floor that's only because he's #2 in their established hierarchy right now. I don't see why Kyrie is a better option when LeBron's off. It should be Love.

Well Kyrie is a better option with Lebron off the floor because 28 pp36 on 57 TS is better than anything Love has done. And the problem isn't really in Love's numbers its in the fact that 3 of the top 10-15 offensive players in the league couldn't produce at an ATG level. Then when you look back on reasons why they aren't performing like they should you notice Love's usage and efficiency are both down and he's shooting more than ever before. Back in Miami I used to say Spo took most of that blame because Lebron isn't the coach but after seeing how Lebron acted towards Blatt this year when he tried to input a system I don't really believe that anymore.

[SkyHookFTW]

1. Wilt (1967)
The stats speak for themselves. This is the most dominant season ever for an individual player, aside from his poor FT%. In the playoffs, he faced excellent competition, and even averaged a triple-double as a center in one of those series. While people push him down the GOAT list because of his somewhat toxic approach and attitude, we're talking peak, not career. This is the season that baffles people--he had the physical ability to play like this for years, and if he did, he'd be the GOAT.

Regular season stats...MPG: 45.5, PPG: 24.1, RPG: 24.1 (Wilt scored 1,956 points that year to 1,957 rebounds), FG%: .683, APG: 7.8...those numbers are filthy. During the playoffs, facing better defenses, his PPG dropped to 21.7 and his FG% to .579, but his assists rose to 9.0 and rebounds an incredible 29.1 per game. What he lost in scoring he made up in other areas, showing his ability to adjust his game to the circumstances around him. Besides, when you have Greer, Walker, and Cunningham on the floor, he knew he didn't have to be Superman to win.

2. Shaq (2000)
I love Shaq. That season, Shaq in the regular season went: MPG: 40.0, PPG, 29.7 on .575 2pt% shooting, RPG: 13.6, APG, 3.8, BLK, 3.0. In the playoffs that year, he upped his MPG to 43.5, scoring to 30.7, and rebounds to 15.4. APG were 3.1 and BLK was 2.4. He may have scored less per minute in the playoffs, but not by much. While one could say he didn't face great competition in every series, his supporting cast was not an all-time great one. Plus, he can only play who was against him...can't pick your opponent.

3. LeBron (2009) or Kareem (1972)...not sure which peak I'm taking here, leaning ever so slighty to KAJ...

[Owly]

Well that's not peak Shaq or his best offensive team.


Basically everyone in consideration for this spot has had the same. What do you call Kyrie, Love, and Mosgov?


You missed the point of the argument (that of course Shaq has had great teams that were a better fit since he has a more unique skillset and fills a single role while what makes Lebron so great is how many roles he can fill) here. Again that Orlando team was young Shaq and not even his best offensive team.

No, you misread a post that said whilst it is peripheral to the general focus of the thread, you are wrong specifically to say

But that's not a very hard supporting cast to get.

It is.

All repetition of "that's not peak Shaq" "not even his best team" is missing the point. You said it was an easily replicable team. And it isn't.

But that single Orlando team wasn't the only team mentioned in either post. The basic build mentioned by Q of a perimeter star, great passing stretch 4, and shooters (one of which can create most likely) isn't hard to come by when you have a star that talented. Period. Anything else you are putting into that post is coming from you.

And wow, you think Mozgov is just under-all star calibre? I like him, but that just isn't true. And for what it's worth neither Love nor Irving have posted a 25 PER with LeBron (Kyrie closest at 21.5, missing by a substantial margin; I dare say, unlike Hardaway, he will not recieve a mention as a candidate in this project), nor is either an all-star level talent who brings complementary role-player skills. So that team (thus far) meets none of the three criteria.

He's just as under All Star caliber as Nick Anderson is. Both have about 17 PERs and Anderson wasn't the defender Mozgov is - but Mozgov does play limited minutes but its more in the Robin Lopez sense (RoLo prior to Portland was stuck on the bench under some other bigs or on teams that didn't like trotting out traditional lineups). I mean if your standard for just under All Star is Nick Anderson a lot of guys (for example Wes Matthews) are just under All Star level.

And none of them hit the criteria of a 25 PER because Love is stuck with Lebron on his team turning him into a shooter like he did to Bosh. Oops. I mean its easy to say he doesn't have a 25+ PER but when the argument is that Lebron stops them from producing like they could and he was a 25 PER guy for 4 years prior to stepping on the court with Lebron it strengthens my point if anything.

Actually Kyrie without Lebron on the floor was a 25+ PER player last year. Per 36 (and this isn't a small sample over a third of his 2700+ minutes came without Lebron) he averaged 28/4/6 on 57 TS (115 ORTG). By all measures Lebron is pushing the team ahead by being there but lowering the numbers and impact of the other two stars on the floor with him.

Also the whole complementary role player skills thing is the issue. Next to Lebron everyone becomes a role player with complementary skills because if they don't Lebron's play falls off. Look at Lebron's production when Wade wasn't sacrificing his game in 2011. How difficult it is to get Lebron a good complementary piece is why he doesn't have these types of teams around him. I mean before playing with Lebron both Bosh and Love were seen as top 5 bigmen in the league (and many saw Love as a top 5 player).

Except no he isn't because
1) Nick Anderson posted a higher PER (17.5 to 16.6)
2) Anderson posted numbers close to those numbers consistently (as opposed to Mozgov who has only flashed them)
3) Anderson is better across other metrics (.154 WS/48 to .133; 3.9 BPM to -0.4)
4) Mozgov has played only in a limited role and with others creating shots for him, whilst Anderson showed the capacity to do more and arguably was on a trajectory to do that before sublimating his game (including his formidable post attack) when Shaq and Penny came along.

Anderson was also good defender, he doesn't have Mozgov's upside there but nor could he be forced out of games as Mozgov was in the finals.

So no, Mozgov isn't at that level.

That you're persisting with either Love or Kyrie last year being at peak Penny's level or capable of such is laughable. Love was underutilised, but that doesn't mean he's at peak Penny's level. Even if we had proof Love could co-exist with another star and maintain Minny level productivity (and he may yet do so, but you're arguing casts thus far) Penny wasn't a very poor defender as Love is.

And if you want to advocate for Kyrie in this project go ahead. With or without LeBron, thus far his career metrics have been very stable (except ws/48 this year, because that metric is so tied to team outcomes).

And that still doesn't address which of those guys fits the ideal fit, floor spacer, defender, all-star level player archeotype, because it's no one.

You've cut the original context fromo the conversation which isn't surprising because it includes Q specifically talking about the Magic. In fairness to you your response does refer to those as archetypes. But it also says in response to a post about that specific team

But that's not a very hard supporting cast to get. Lebron's had a perimeter creator, great shooters, and a great shooting and passing bigman TWICE, Jordan once, and Shaq THREE times (Mia, Orl, and LA). Its just not that hard a team prototype to gather.

Nothing is required to be read into this (and if this was what was being done you would have addressed it immediately). You say of the Orlando team, it's "not a very hard supporting cast to get". You go on to talk about broader types but the context is a post about how good that Magic team was.

Then too, you deviate further from the original point, saying LeBron can't play with other stars citing Wade, specifically ignoring 2012. Were there teething problems, of course. As you would expect from putting together two slashers, who had been used to being the main star and whos Js/range were average (LeBron) and poor (Wade). You say Wade "wasn't sacrificing" in '11 and presumably this is meant to imply he did so in 2012, yet Wade's "sacrifice" meant his productivity went up. This either means (a) that wasn't what was happening or (b) "sacrificing" to LeBron makes you even more productive.

[PaulieWal]

Well Kyrie is a better option with Lebron off the floor because 28 pp36 on 57 TS is better than anything Love has done. And the problem isn't really in Love's numbers its in the fact that 3 of the top 10-15 offensive players in the league couldn't produce at an ATG level. Then when you look back on reasons why they aren't performing like they should you notice Love's usage and efficiency are both down and he's shooting more than ever before. Back in Miami I used to say Spo took most of that blame because Lebron isn't the coach but after seeing how Lebron acted towards Blatt this year when he tried to input a system I don't really believe that anymore.

What?

You are using their per36 numbers for when LeBron is not on (okay, I mean that's a weird method) when we have an entire season of Love in 2014 as the first option doing anything better than Kyrie has done. I rather look at that then Kyrie doing well in limited minutes with better teammates. Makes no sense. That's pretty faulty reasoning for saying Irving should be 2nd.

And I am not sure why LeBron or Spo deserve some blame? They were #2 in 2013, behind 0.1 behind OKC. They were # 5 in 2014 and both years they set records for eFG%. Their offense was fine until the very end, it was the defense that did them in.

Look, I am no fan of how the Cavs played last year either (I know, I know 33-3 and historic numbers) but I do think they will install something better this year and install something more aesthetically pleasing instead of the iso/PnR crap my turn, your turn between LeBron and Kyrie. Ortg isn't the end all, be all of offenses. And it's not like LeBron led teams are producing offenses which are not usually in top 5 or 10 of the league.

[The-Power]

My "issue" with LeBron at this level isn't that Kyrie's/Love's numbers went down...or that Wade's/Bosh's numbers went down, as individuals. My issue is that we've now seen LeBron as part of two different talent-rich big 3s over the past 5 years, in his prime, and on a team-level it appears that added talent leads to diminishing returns at a higher rate than it does with other mega stars. This isn't an issue with LeBron in general, but if we're talking about for the 2nd greatest peak of all time then I think it's worthy of discussion.

I understand the reservations in general. But it should be made clear that we're talking about a one-year peak and not about a player's status among all-time greats. We should take data from different years into account when the one-year data seems unreliable, doubtful or in cases where it makes sense to consider more years for the evaluation of a single year.

In 2013 he posted an on-court team ORTG of 116.5 (+10.6 compared to league average) and 115.6 (+7.3 compared to league average) in 2009 without a great supporting cast - both years are considered to be his peak by most and both offenses he led those years are really good. Unless you believe the data for those is skewed in whatever way it shouldn't matter what he did so far in Cleveland or what he accomplished in the other years in Miami. All we can say objectively is that he was able to lead an awesome offense especially in 2013 (which I decided refer to as his peak and which falls into the time of him being on an elite team) and while your arguments might hold some value in general I don't see them applicable to this specific year.

[E-Balla]

But that single Orlando team wasn't the only team mentioned in either post. The basic build mentioned by Q of a perimeter star, great passing stretch 4, and shooters (one of which can create most likely) isn't hard to come by when you have a star that talented. Period. Anything else you are putting into that post is coming from you.

And wow, you think Mozgov is just under-all star calibre? I like him, but that just isn't true. And for what it's worth neither Love nor Irving have posted a 25 PER with LeBron (Kyrie closest at 21.5, missing by a substantial margin; I dare say, unlike Hardaway, he will not recieve a mention as a candidate in this project), nor is either an all-star level talent who brings complementary role-player skills. So that team (thus far) meets none of the three criteria.

He's just as under All Star caliber as Nick Anderson is. Both have about 17 PERs and Anderson wasn't the defender Mozgov is - but Mozgov does play limited minutes but its more in the Robin Lopez sense (RoLo prior to Portland was stuck on the bench under some other bigs or on teams that didn't like trotting out traditional lineups). I mean if your standard for just under All Star is Nick Anderson a lot of guys (for example Wes Matthews) are just under All Star level.

And none of them hit the criteria of a 25 PER because Love is stuck with Lebron on his team turning him into a shooter like he did to Bosh. Oops. I mean its easy to say he doesn't have a 25+ PER but when the argument is that Lebron stops them from producing like they could and he was a 25 PER guy for 4 years prior to stepping on the court with Lebron it strengthens my point if anything.

Actually Kyrie without Lebron on the floor was a 25+ PER player last year. Per 36 (and this isn't a small sample over a third of his 2700+ minutes came without Lebron) he averaged 28/4/6 on 57 TS (115 ORTG). By all measures Lebron is pushing the team ahead by being there but lowering the numbers and impact of the other two stars on the floor with him.

Also the whole complementary role player skills thing is the issue. Next to Lebron everyone becomes a role player with complementary skills because if they don't Lebron's play falls off. Look at Lebron's production when Wade wasn't sacrificing his game in 2011. How difficult it is to get Lebron a good complementary piece is why he doesn't have these types of teams around him. I mean before playing with Lebron both Bosh and Love were seen as top 5 bigmen in the league (and many saw Love as a top 5 player).

Except no he isn't because
1) Nick Anderson posted a higher PER (17.5 to 16.6)
2) Anderson posted numbers close to those numbers consistently (as opposed to Mozgov who has only flashed them)
3) Anderson is better across other metrics (.154 WS/48 to .133; 3.9 BPM to -0.4)
4) Mozgov has played only in a limited role and with others creating shots for him, whilst Anderson showed the capacity to do more and arguably was on a trajectory to do that before sublimating his game (including his formidable post attack) when Shaq and Penny came along.

Anderson was also good defender, he doesn't have Mozgov's upside there but nor could he be forced out of games as Mozgov was in the finals.

So no, Mozgov isn't at that level.

That you're persisting with either Love or Kyrie last year being at peak Penny's level or capable of such is laughable. Love was underutilised, but that doesn't mean he's at peak Penny's level. Even if we had proof Love could co-exist with another star and maintain Minny level productivity (and he may yet do so, but you're arguing casts thus far) Penny wasn't a very poor defender as Love is.

And if you want to advocate for Kyrie in this project go ahead. With or without LeBron, thus far his career metrics have been very stable (except ws/48 this year, because that metric is so tied to team outcomes).

And that still doesn't address which of those guys fits the ideal fit, floor spacer, defender, all-star level player archeotype, because it's no one.

You've cut the original context fromo the conversation which isn't surprising because it includes Q specifically talking about the Magic. In fairness to you your response does refer to those as archetypes. But it also says in response to a post about that specific team

Well no because he also mentioned the (better) 98 Lakers. Yes he mentioned Orlando but it was part of a larger point (that while they've had equal supporting casts in terms of talent Shaq has had the better fit). Why aren't you harping on the 98 Lakers?

Also when did I ever say they were better than Penny? I said they were possibly 25+ PER stars without Lebron (seeing as how Love was one in 2014 and Kyrie in about 900+ minutes without Lebron played like one). Plenty of people produce at that level without having the intangibles of Penny. Again stop referring to this team when its not even his best offense and it isn't even the point of my posts. I never said Penny type players are easy to come by that's absurd but great second options aren't that hard to come by when you already have the franchise talent (the list of great players who's teams couldn't get that talent around them is short).

But that's not a very hard supporting cast to get. Lebron's had a perimeter creator, great shooters, and a great shooting and passing bigman TWICE, Jordan once, and Shaq THREE times (Mia, Orl, and LA). Its just not that hard a team prototype to gather.

Nothing is required to be read into this (and if this was what was being done you would have addressed it immediately). You say of the Orlando team, it's "not a very hard supporting cast to get". You go on to talk about broader types but the context is a post about how good that Magic team was.

No I didn't say that did you even see the rest of what you quoted? Its obvious I was referring to those archetypes if you read the rest of my post. I made it easy to spot just in case you miss it again.

Then too, you deviate further from the original point, saying LeBron can't play with other stars citing Wade, specifically ignoring 2012. Were there teething problems, of course. As you would expect from putting together two slashers, who had been used to being the main star and whos Js/range were average (LeBron) and poor (Wade). You say Wade "wasn't sacrificing" in '11 and presumably this is meant to imply he did so in 2012, yet Wade's "sacrifice" meant his productivity went up. This either means (a) that wasn't what was happening or (b) "sacrificing" to LeBron makes you even more productive.

You think 22/5/5 isn't a decline in production compared to 26/6/5? Wade clearly took on a smaller role in 2012 compared to 2011. Also his productivity mostly remained the same per possession.

[E-Balla]

Well Kyrie is a better option with Lebron off the floor because 28 pp36 on 57 TS is better than anything Love has done. And the problem isn't really in Love's numbers its in the fact that 3 of the top 10-15 offensive players in the league couldn't produce at an ATG level. Then when you look back on reasons why they aren't performing like they should you notice Love's usage and efficiency are both down and he's shooting more than ever before. Back in Miami I used to say Spo took most of that blame because Lebron isn't the coach but after seeing how Lebron acted towards Blatt this year when he tried to input a system I don't really believe that anymore.

What?

You are using their per36 numbers for when LeBron is not on (okay, I mean that's a weird method) when we have an entire season of Love in 2014 as the first option doing anything better than Kyrie has done. I rather look at that then Kyrie doing well in limited minutes with better teammates. Makes no sense. That's pretty faulty reasoning for saying Irving should be 2nd.

And I am not sure why LeBron or Spo deserve some blame? They were #2 in 2013, behind 0.1 behind OKC. They were # 5 in 2014 and both years they set records for eFG%. Their offense was fine until the very end, it was the defense that did them in.

Look, I am no fan of how the Cavs played last year either (I know, I know 33-3 and historic numbers) but I do think they will install something better this year and install something more aesthetically pleasing instead of the iso/PnR crap my turn, your turn between LeBron and Kyrie. Ortg isn't the end all, be all of offenses. And it's not like LeBron led teams are producing offenses which are not usually in top 5 or 10 of the league.

We have a full season of Love doing anything better than Kyrie is a half truth because while it is true is has nothing to do with here and now. Kyrie is super young so rapid improvement shouldn't be looked at as odd especially considering how great he was compared to most his age from 18 (yes even back to Duke) to 21 years old. Look at young PG phenoms and you'll notice they improve rapidly. From CP3 going from 17/9 to 21/11, Derrick Rose going from 21/6 to 25/8, Westbrook going from 16/8 to 22/8, Gil going from 20/5 to 26/5 young PG seem to increase production a lot around the age of 22-24. Kyrie just so happened to be 22 last year so its entirely possible that what we are seeing in those 10 MPG Kyrie isn't with Lebron is actually indicative of what he brings to the table (slightly skewed of course).

If you want to discount what happened last season that's fine but Kyrie proved himself to be a great second option and possibly even better than Love at being one.

And Miami wasn't bad offensively or anything but this was supposed to be an ATG team that shook the planet. There was talk of 72-10 and they literally had the two best players in the league on the same team along with another top 15-20 player in Bosh. Their offense in its best form (2013 when they had 5 40% shooters iirc) shouldn't be on the same level as Shaq, Eddie Jones, 19 yo Kobe, and NVE.

[PaulieWal]

We have a full season of Love doing anything better than Kyrie is a half truth because while it is true is has nothing to do with here and now. Kyrie is super young so rapid improvement shouldn't be looked at as odd especially considering how great he was compared to most his age from 18 (yes even back to Duke) to 21 years old. Look at young PG phenoms and you'll notice they improve rapidly. From CP3 going from 17/9 to 21/11, Derrick Rose going from 21/6 to 25/8, Westbrook going from 16/8 to 22/8, Gil going from 20/5 to 26/5 young PG seem to increase production a lot around the age of 22-24. Kyrie just so happened to be 22 last year so its entirely possible that what we are seeing in those 10 MPG Kyrie isn't with Lebron is actually indicative of what he brings to the table (slightly skewed of course).

If you want to discount what happened last season that's fine but Kyrie proved himself to be a great second option and possibly even better than Love at being one.

And Miami wasn't bad offensively or anything but this was supposed to be an ATG team that shook the planet. There was talk of 72-10 and they literally had the two best players in the league on the same team along with another top 15-20 player in Bosh. Their offense in its best form (2013 when they had 5 40% shooters iirc) shouldn't be on the same level as Shaq, Eddie Jones, 19 yo Kobe, and NVE.

That's not the half-truth. That happened with Love as the #1 guy and opposing defenses gameplanning to stop him every single night. Kyrie's gaudy PER36 LeBron off numbers came with Love on the floor (unless you also have Irving's PER36 with Love and LeBron off) but then sample size.

The only time underlined happened was in 2011 when they were still 3rd in the league in Ortg with 111.7.

In their later years as their offense got better with better ball movement you know they punted on rebounds to maximize efficiency (especially ORBs which would reduce any team's ORTG).

And as THe Power pointed out LeBron on-court ORTG is comparable to pretty much anybody except for Nash.

[mischievous]

For people who, like me (not a voter here), have Russell at or near the top of the GOAT list, what is his top season and why isn't it in contention here?

Probably because at his peak(depending what year it was), he was merely a 17-19 ppg on sub 50 ts%. His career high PER is 22.8. I get the massive impact on D he had, but the other guys being discussed here were a ton better offensively and also had great defensive impact. In other words, it's hard to make a case for Russell based on statistics.

I'm not a advocate of Russell being in the top 3 or even 5 for that matter, but i imagine the ones that do, do so because of his sustained success and excellence over a 10-12 year span, not because his peak was GOAT level.

[mischievous]

As tough as the first four picks are, I feel like it'll get even tougher between #5 and 7. I have Hakeem, Kareem and Duncan at 5, 6 and 7, respectively, but I'm even less confident about that, than I am about the order of LBJ, MJ, Shaq and Wilt.

I can see Hakeem going down a little, possibly slipping to #7, because both Kareem (1977) and Duncan (2003) have a strong case over him. Especially TD - I'll be one of his biggest advocates here (nice to see that Dr Positivity is already considering him right now, for his #4 - that's a bit too high for my liking, but at least I won't be alone with my "worship" of TD, lol.
Drza mentioned Russell - I think Duncan should definitely get in ahead of Russell. Maybe my argument for that will be a little primitive, but I just think that Duncan's offense was better than Russell's offense to a greater degree than Russell's defense was better than Duncan's defense. Especially if I make an adjustment for era, then Russell's impact wouldn't look as otherworldly as it does when you look at it as if there were no major rule changes between the 60s and the 00s. I can see Duncan anchoring a similarly dominant defense in Russell's place (not as good, but at least close), but I totally can't see Russell anchoring the Spurs offense like Duncan did in '03.

I suppose that drza will argue Garnett over Duncan, and Spaceman will argue Robinson (and maybe Garnett, too) over Duncan. It'll be very interesting.

Okay, enough with that, it's too early for Duncan and Russell right now (or Garnett or Robinson), I think. Just wanted to share a few thoughts.

Q, i'd like to hear your take on Hakeem vs Wilt in peaks. I lean Hakeem for now, but what is your pro-Wilt case?

[The-Power]

My voting (after a lengthy deliberation):

1st ballot: '13 LeBron
2nd ballot: '00 Shaq
3rd ballot: '95 Robinson

I already gave my reasoning concerning LeBron and Shaq, so I won't repeat myself.

Robinson should be an unpopular vote this early but this has at least something to do with the perception and evaluation of his playoffs. I want to emphasize, however, that The Admiral during his peak had three regular seasons which are not only very impressive but have a legitimate case for the greatest regular seasons in history. He's, in my opinion, the best defender of the options I posted earlier. Garnett has a case, especially in some situations, but I prefer Robinson overall. He was an elite rim-protector but also for his strength and size incredibly mobile. As far as defense is concerned he has a decent case as the greatest of all time peak-wise - or let's say second to Russell when we're talking about impact - and should be a lock for the top five. We have some DRAPM data for his post-injury seasons available and it shows extremely high impact. This impact should be even higher during his peak because from what I watched and recall his defense didn't suffer from his bigger role on offense and he was at his athletic peak, and already a savvy defender. And on top of that he also anchored the offense, scored on an extremely high volume (higher than any other player mentioned before) on a per 100 basis. He did it at great efficiency at that, roughly 0.06 TS% above league average which is elite for a volume scorer. He was a decent playmaker as well, although not the best among his peers or the guys mentioned. The Spurs' ORTG was well-above and the DRTG well-below league average, although in both cases not at an elite level. But since one player can only do so much anyway we can't draw final conclusion on that. However, we do have on/off numbers for the '94, '95 and '96 seasons and they are absolutely fantastic (close to +20 I believe), almost KG peak-level and KG is probably the king of raw on/off due to his tremendous impact relative to his poor supporting cast. This is nothing to disregard, especially those who like to put some emphasis on regular season and reliable data and less on narratives and a few poor performances.

Of course the playoffs aren't something to simply disregard either. He couldn't maintain his level in the postseason and even though the sample size is extremely limited, it carries some weight for sure. But let's start with acknowledging three things: a) he didn't play extremely poor, he just fell from an extremely high level offensively; b) we can assume that his impact on defense acutally carried into the postseason, it's very rare for elite defenders to not maintain their high level during the postseason; and c) the sample size has to be an issue. But I'm totally willing to admit that his scoring game was overall less reliable during the postseasons. So his offensive prodution dropped, but it dropped from a very high level. The postseason somewhat unveiled that he is best suited as a strong second option on offense - in this role, he's arguably the best one available because nobody else in history provides his combination of efficient scoring on high volume, team-friendly attitude, versatility on both ends and elite defense. And such a player in such a role would likely be still the best player on every team unless it has peak-Jordan or peak-LeBron (let's leave Shaq out here for position reasons) on it. So while we have to punish him a little bit for not being a true go-to-guy compared to other all-time greats come playoff-time, I'm not willing to blame him too much for not being used in his best role and basically wipe away his entire peak-performance because of it. If his main or only value would be his offense, it would be another story. But that's not the case. To simplify for illustration: someone who was an 8 on offense and 10 on defense during the RS, and a 5/6 on offense and 10 on defense during the PS still has one of the best peaks in history of the NBA. If he had maintaned his production during the playoffs we would probably talk about the greatest peak in NBA history. He didn't, so he fell a bit - but since the current field is so close to each other anyway I really have no issues taking DRob here.