Draft/ International Signing Day?

Quake Griffin · Post #101 » by **Quake Griffin** » Sun Dec 6, 2015 6:10 am

Why does it seem like whenever you hear trade rumors, potential draft picks aren't a part of it?
Is it just less common in baseball (unlike football and basketball) for teams to deal picks for players?
Do the picks have less value?

I know we gave a compensatory pick up in the 3 team deal this year.
But it just doesnt seem like that's an asset that EVER comes up when rumors about the Dodgers dealing for pitching comes up.

Neddy · Post #102 » by **Neddy** » Sun Dec 6, 2015 7:22 am

Quake Griffin wrote:Why does it seem like whenever you hear trade rumors, potential draft picks aren't a part of it?
Is it just less common in baseball (unlike football and basketball) for teams to deal picks for players?
Do the picks have less value?

I know we gave a compensatory pick up in the 3 team deal this year.
But it just doesnt seem like that's an asset that EVER comes up when rumors about the Dodgers dealing for pitching comes up.

it's not that baseball picks have less value than other sports, it is just that in baseball, it is much harder to predict how a young player would do, and draft picks success is much more random than other sports. but the impact of a good pick is non the less important than other sports.

Ranma · Post #103 » by **Ranma** » Sun Dec 6, 2015 9:30 am

Major League Baseball does not allow for draft picks to be traded with the exception of the compensatory B picks (I think) and they can only be dealt once. MLB is the only one of the four major sports leagues to not allow for the trading of draft picks. I think the concern, is like Neddy said, given the more random nature of the draft selections, the league is concerned with bad teams just dumping or selling draft picks, particularly those of the top-10 variety to the bigger revenue ballclubs. This fear used to be directed at primarily the Yankees and the Red Sox, but now the Dodgers are seen as the big bad as pick hoarders.

I believe this was due to the days before revenue sharing and the luxury tax evened the playing field more for the small-market clubs. While there may be teams that are still losing money, it was not as dire as before. And because of the large gap in disparity between big-market ballclubs and the small-market teams, baseball was concerened that those small-market clubs that tend to end up with the top draft selections would just sell those picks or trade them to the big-market ones who had the resources to pay for them.

Despite such concerns, baseball has been slow and reluctant to enact a salary cap. I suspect that MLB likes being the only one of the 4 major sports leagues to have that where the Yankees, Red Sox, and now Dodgers will always have advantages to stay competitive. The luxury tax may make it less appealing to have a team payroll over a designated limit, but there is really nothing to keep the premier clubs in New York, Boston, and Los Angeles from spending whatever they want if they really have or want to. Those clubs just have to pay a premium to do so.

Even the draft was rigged to benefit the big-market teams willing to spend money. Each draft slot is assigned a slot value that serves as a guideline of what a particular draft choice should be paid based on his draft position. The higher the player is selected, the more money he is supposed to get. However, the slot value for each of a team's draft picks determines the overall amount of money a team can spend on its draft class. Teams with the worst records and thus, higher draft choices, start out with higher amounts of money to spend on their draft class while teams with the best records have less.

A small percentage of a team's slot money pool can be traded to other teams. Draft picks have to be signed or their corresponding slot value is removed entirely from the team's slot money pool for the entire class. Basically, use it or lose it. Use the draft pick to select and sign the player or lose the funds assigned to that player from the overall pool.

Before implementation of the slot money rule, the Yankees and Red Sox typically could still sign top prospects at their lower draft slots because agents like Scott Boras would put a high price tag on his clients so that only the Yankees or Red Sox could afford them. This allowed for top talent like Rick Porcello to fall all the way to the 27th overall pick for the Tigers in the 2007 MLB Amateur Player Draft despite being highly rated near the top of his draft class. It was thought that teams that had trouble staying in the black in terms of their budget or even losing money, would be tempted to sell or otherwise convey their draft picks to the Yankees or Red Sox for relief from their financial burden.

Even with the slot money system, good players can be had either later in the 1st round or anywhere else in the first 10 rounds due to signability concerns over their price tag. The Dodgers and many other teams passed up on Daz Cameron last year because they didn't have or want to devote the necessary money from their limited pool of funds for their entire draft class to sign Cameron.

Teams can spend as much money on any of their draft slots in any way they want by drawing from the allotted draft pool fund. For instance, the Dodgers can draft a college senior who is considered signable at below the slot value in the 1st round and use those savings to apply them toward signing a highly-rated prep prospect taken in the 2nd round who fell due to his high asking price. In this scenario, it is very conceivable that the 2nd-round pick would be signed for more money than the 1st-round pick. However, teams can go over their allotted draft pool fund by a certain percentage without incurring penalties, but should a team exceed certain thresholds, it could lose up to 2 first-round draft picks in subsequent draft years depending on the percentage of excess in the overall payout to its draft class.

There's my long-winded answer to a simple question of why baseball draft picks aren't traded. Because they can't be.

Edit: Corrected typos and added a little more clarification about distributing draft pool funds on individual draft selections as well as penalties for exceeding the total allotted draft pool fund.

Ranma · Post #104 » by **Ranma** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 1:56 am

Well, I guess we better get as many good Cubans as possible while we can.

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Quake Griffin · Post #105 » by **Quake Griffin** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:28 am

Dodgers buying those Cubans up making the commissioner think of implementing a draft?

It is unfair that players who come from HS or college can't get that bonus that Yadier Alvarez got.

Neddy · Post #106 » by **Neddy** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:42 am

rather than free agent signing or a draft, the government of Cuba should institute a posting system and have US teams pay their government to sell players. they get revenue they desperately need, and we get ball players we desperately need. it's a win-win.

Ranma · Post #107 » by **Ranma** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:42 am

Quake Griffin wrote:Dodgers buying those Cubans up making the commissioner think of implementing a draft?

It is unfair that players who come from HS or college can't get that bonus that Yadier Alvarez got.

Those college and prep prospects used to get those types of bonuses, but it was bad for the game since the Yankees and Red Sox used to be the only ones who could afford such prospects and agents like Scott Boras would try to steer their clients to those clubs.

The salary slot system is good overall for the draft. They just have to fix the system used to acquire Latin American talent, but they can't until US-Cuba relations are fully normalized. The transfer agreements with Japan and Korea is working just fine. And the Dodgers are not the reason for the commissioner's chagrin. Well, we're not the only reason. The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Angels have spent exorbitantly for talent on the international market as well. The Dodgers just saw the writing on the wall and decided to act before things get clamped down.

After years of reducing our international scouting and network to an impotent state under Frank McCourt, the Dodgers have nothing to be ashamed about in exploiting the system in order to quickly restore us to our former glory.

Neddy · Post #108 » by **Neddy** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:50 am

Ranma wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Dodgers buying those Cubans up making the commissioner think of implementing a draft?

It is unfair that players who come from HS or college can't get that bonus that Yadier Alvarez got.

Those college and prep prospects used to get those types of bonuses, but it was bad for the game since only the Yankees and Red Sox used to be the only ones who could afford such prospects and agents like Scott Boras would try to steer his clients to those clubs.

The salary slot system is good overall for the draft. They just have to fix the system used to acquire Latin American talent, but they can't until US-Cuba relations are fully normalized. The transfer agreements with Japan and Korea is working just fine. And the Dodgers are not the reason for the commissioner's chagrin. Well, we're not the only reason. The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Angels have spent exorbitantly for talent on the international market as well. The Dodgers just saw the writing on the wall and decided to act before things get clamped down.

After years of reducing our international scouting and network to an impotent state under Frank McCourt, the Dodgers have nothing to be ashamed about in exploiting the system in order to quickly restore us to our former glory.

speaking of posting system, the South Koreans need to adopt what Japanese are doing now, capping the posting fee and let multiple teams bid for their players. otherwise this exclusive negotiation rights make bad teams to bet a major chunk of change in posting fee and lowball the player, a la Minnesota Twins with their 12 million dollar deal for 4 years of Park. I'm surprised he went for it. after the state by state income tax on athletes, agent fee, South Korean income tax, then having to pay for his own for housing, cost of living for his family, he would have made relatively the same money if he stayed. judging by inflated contracts Korean FAs are signing this off season, maybe even more. Kang of the Pirates, our own Ryu, and now Park for the Twin City are grossly underpaid compared to unproven Cubans or the Japanese players.

Ranma · Post #109 » by **Ranma** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:50 am

Neddy wrote:rather than free agent signing or a draft, the government of Cuba should institute a posting system and have US teams pay their government to sell players. they get revenue they desperately need, and we get ball players we desperately need. it's a win-win.

I think a posting system is the way to go too, but even that can't happen until more progress is made on the still delicate relations the two countries are engaged in. I know the majority of owners would rather the Latin American prospects be incorporated into the draft, but given Cuba's position, it would obviously be more agreeable to that government's desire to be well compensated for the baseball talent that resides on the island.

Neddy · Post #110 » by **Neddy** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 3:57 am

since Cuba is still a communist country, they won't ever have a commercial pro leagues, so their amateur league is pretty much their pro league. it would be unfair to incorporate them into our draft.

Ranma · Post #111 » by **Ranma** » Mon Dec 7, 2015 4:35 am

Neddy wrote:since Cuba is still a communist country, they won't ever have a commercial pro leagues, so their amateur league is pretty much their pro league. it would be unfair to incorporate them into our draft.

I didn't know this until I read the article last week, but apparently Cuba used to house minor league teams affiliated with MLB before ties were severed due to revolutionary events. It looks like a group is trying to bring an MLB-affiliated minor league team back to Cuba.

Dan Berry, New York Times (11/28/15)

More than half a century has passed since the Havana Sugar Kings, a Cincinnati Reds affiliate, played in the Class AAA International League. Since the giddy gunfire of followers of the revolutionary Fidel Castro grazed a shortstop and a third-base coach at a game against the Rochester Red Wings. Since Havana won the 1959 Little World Series against the Minneapolis Millers here at home.

The notion of returning to those days, absent the gunfire, may sound like pie in the sky, given the longstanding American embargo against Cuba. But President Obama and the Cuban president, Raúl Castro, announced plans last December to restore full diplomatic ties — a first hesitant step toward normalizing relations — and some see a chance for an exemption from the embargo: a baseball “carve-out.”

What’s more, this group’s enthusiastic leader, a veteran minor league executive named Lou Schwechheimer, has spent the last dozen years preparing for just such a moment.

He has secured the exclusive rights from Minor League Baseball to return professional baseball to Havana. He has assembled this group, called the Caribbean Baseball Initiative, which includes two highly regarded former American ambassadors. He has obtained the necessary licensing from the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control. He has raised considerable capital.

And, very quietly, he has built a baseball empire.

As of this month, the Caribbean Baseball Initiative owns controlling interests in the New Orleans Zephyrs, a Miami Marlins franchise in the Class AAA Pacific Coast League, and the Charlotte Stone Crabs, a Tampa Bay Rays franchise in the Class A Florida State League. The group also holds a minority interest in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre RailRiders, a Yankees franchise in the International League.

None of these teams will be moved to Cuba, Schwechheimer said, although they may figure in various good-will initiatives he has in mind, including playing a Class AAA all-star game in Havana, providing much-needed baseball equipment, and sponsoring seminars on training and conditioning.

But he also said, “We have the financial resources to acquire additional minor league teams, one of which may ultimately wind up in Havana — but only at the appropriate time.”

Until that appropriate time, Schwechheimer and his associates plan to continue their minibus missions to Cuba, listening, explaining and seeking a partner in a joint baseball venture.

“But only thoughtfully, respectfully and when Cuba is willing,” he said. “We’re not going to be the ugly Americans.”

A Pitch is Framed by Diplomacy in Cuba

Ranma · Post #112 » by **Ranma** » Wed Dec 9, 2015 9:59 pm

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Ranma · Post #113 » by **Ranma** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:08 am

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Quake Griffin · Post #114 » by **Quake Griffin** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:32 am

You said you see him as a #2 or a back end of the rotation guy?

Ranma · Post #115 » by **Ranma** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:51 am

This kid sounds promising based on the translated article referenced in the tweet below, but that's all the information I have to go by. Marcano seems like a nice signing but nothing to get excited about just yet. I wonder if Ismael Cruz hand-picked the guy.

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Ranma · Post #116 » by **Ranma** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:23 am

Quake Griffin wrote:You said you see him as a #2 or a back end of the rotation guy?

I believe Neddy may be higher on him, but I see him more as a back of the rotation guy with a very slight chance of going to #3 starter for the Dodgers, otherwise, I think he could make a decent 3rd starter for most other teams. However, I hear some people say that he could be the next Hiroki Kuroda, which would be a great accomplishment.

I don't know much about him other than that he's excelled in NPB, but based on the few scouting reports I've read, he's more solid than spectacular in terms of upside. I may be underrating him, but I think he'd ideally be a #5 starter in the Dodgers' rotation if we happen to get another ace for the #2 starter role this off-season.

As it stands now the pitching rotation depth looks like:

Kershaw
Iwakuma
Anderson
Wood
Bolsinger
Lee
Frias
Weiland

We also have the following wildcards:

Hyun-jin Ryu
Brandon McCarthy

While Kenta Maeda may be a decent pick-up, I don't see a place for him on the roster barring trades, but that hasn't stopped the Dodgers from expressing some level of interest in him. He is not another Darvish or Otani. He's not even a Tanaka. He's more along the lines of a Leake, Kazmir, or Chen in the current free agent market for pitchers, except that he's unproven.

Ranma · Post #117 » by **Ranma** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:36 pm

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Awesome! I hope Clayton is doing some recruiting on behalf of the Dodgers just in case Lourdes Gourriel, Jr. will eventually be made available for this signing period.

Neddy · Post #118 » by **Neddy** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:52 am

Ranma wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:You said you see him as a #2 or a back end of the rotation guy?

I believe Neddy may be higher on him, but I see him more as a back of the rotation guy with a very slight chance of going to #3 starter for the Dodgers, otherwise, I think he could make a decent 3rd starter for most other teams. However, I hear some people say that he could be the next Hiroki Kuroda, which would be a great accomplishment.

I don't know much about him other than that he's excelled in NPB, but based on the few scouting reports I've read, he's more solid than spectacular in terms of upside. I may be underrating him, but I think he'd ideally be a #5 starter in the Dodgers' rotation if we happen to get another ace for the #2 starter role this off-season.

As it stands now the pitching rotation depth looks like:

Kershaw
Iwakuma
Anderson
Wood
Bolsinger
Lee
Frias
Weiland

We also have the following wildcards:

Hyun-jin Ryu
Brandon McCarthy

While Kenta Maeda may be a decent pick-up, I don't see a place for him on the roster barring trades, but that hasn't stopped the Dodgers from expressing some level of interest in him. He is not another Darvish or Otani. He's not even a Tanaka. He's more along the lines of a Leake, Kazmir, or Chen in the current free agent market for pitchers, except that he's unproven.

Maeda is more accomplished pitcher than Kuma was in Japan. the difference is Kuma is your classic (not so) fastball and splitter based deception provoking pitcher in the same mold of Nomo and Sasaki, and Maeda is a (again, not so) fastball - slider pitcher who throws a quality change up too. the former works better in the majors because we don't have enough of that type, and the latter works better in Japan for the exact same reason. he will not be a high rate strike out pitcher but will come close. NPB culture promotes contact rather than power so their batsmen does not strike out as often as our MLB guys and his strike out/9 will rise. how high from 7+ per 9? probably somewhere in 8 to 9 range per 9 which is not bad at all. good news on Maeda is that change up is not typically a strike out pitch in Japan because many guys are used to the extreme version of it in the form of forkball/splitter. American hitters does not see forkballs or splitters as often but they do with a slider. IF Maeda can flip his strike out pitch to a changeup and use slider to tease batsmen, he can succeed in this league. he also has a curve ball and a variations of sinking and two seam fastballs too. problem with Maeda that I see, is that he has a very fraile frame even for a Japanese pitcher. I don't think he can beat out the "Asian pitcher's jinx" of breaking down in their second or third year in America. starting pitchers do not pitch every fifth day over there as we do here.

as for not having a room, I don't think anyone from the dodger brass would feel bad for any pitcher with guaranteed money gets pushed out of the rotation at all.

Kershaw - Fernandez - Kuma - Anderson - Magic Mike to start the season and if no injuries occur and guys return healthy, we would end up with Kershaw - Fernandez - Kuma - Ryu - McCarthy. assuming Wood is traded to Miami in Jose F's deal, we would still have Anderson and Bolsinger being displaced and looking in. we are gonna be in great position. if and only if the Marlins do not budge with the package I described, that of Wood - De Leon - Holmes - Montas - Thompson - Micah - Barnes??? (shoot in 3 years De Leon could be their Ace, Holmes and Wood in the middle of their rotation with Montas as either a back end starter or their closer, while MIcah manning their second base, Barnes their catcher. I can't imagine anyone topping that deal) then I can see a delayed announcement of Maeda joining the dodger rotation.

Ranma · Post #119 » by **Ranma** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:56 am

MLB.com updated its rankings of the Dodgers' Top 30 Prospects to include both Yusniel Diaz and Omar Estevez. Diaz is ranked 12th immediately behind Yadier Alvarez while Estevez is 21st overall in the development system. I disagree with the rankings of both Alvarez and Diaz. They should both be among the top 10 prospects for the organization with Micah Johnson and Chris Anderson bumped to outside of that group instead. Conversely, I think Estevez is much too high because I don't even think he belongs in the top 30 with names like Imani Abdullah, Jared Walker, Josh Ravin, Scott Barlow, Logan Crouse, Ronny Brito, and Ronald Torreyes not even on the list.

Also, just like when they trimmed Yadier Alvarez's grades upon moving him from the International Prospects list into the Dodgers' prospect rankings, they did the same to Yusniel Diaz to a more extended degree. Diaz's Hit rating dropped from 60 to 55; his Power from 55 to 40; Run from 70 to 60; Arm from 60 to 55; and Field also from 60 to 55. His Overall grade stands at 50.

Ranma · Post #120 » by **Ranma** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:01 am

Come on, Clayton. I suspect Greinke would have known who Lourdes is.

Derrick Goold, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (12/16/15)

The young infielder who could be the next best talent to emerge from Cuba caught sight of one of the best pitchers on the planet and tried to position himself for a meeting.

A narrow, subterranean passageway behind home plate and carved under the seats at Estadio Latinoamericano created an impromptu and confined mix zone for the major-league players visiting Havana’s largest ballpark and the stars of Cuban teams, both past and, in Lourdes Gourriel Jr.’s case, present. A security official was trying to help Dodgers ace Clayton Kershaw slip through to the dugout when former Cardinals center fielder Jon Jay pointed to Gourriel as someone he had to meet.

“He’s one of the best young players,” Jay said.

“What position?” Kershaw said, smiling and offering a hand to shake.

“Shortstop,” came the answer.

“Wow,” the lefty said, sizing Gourriel up, “tall.”

The 6-foot-2 and lean Gourriel is, at 22, the youngest of three brothers in a royal family of Cuban baseball. His father, Lourdes Gourriel Sr., stood nearby him and also shined as a player and manager. His two older brothers have been fixtures on the Industriales, the Havana team that calls Estadio Latinoamericano home. He has an uncle, a great-uncle, and a cousin who are big-name players, and Baseball America has likened them to the Alomars or Boones.

Three Generations of Baseball Connect in Cuba

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