ALCS | Game 4: Cleveland (Kluber) @ Toronto (Sanchez) | Tuesday October 18 | 4:08PM

[Schad]

**** the pitch count! Are you trying to win the ALCS or what? Some of you eat up all the crap this teams serves you like
good little rogers zombies. Everyone in baseball thought the 6 man rotation was going over board Sanchez himself was
pissed off they tried to shut him down.

He's fine an extra start and another 80-100 pitches isn't gonna kill him or make his arm fall off. He's regarded as the teams
best pitcher you never know you might not make it to the ALCS for another 20-30 years.

Listen I'm all for protecting a young pitchers arm I appreciate them being cautious but my god talk about going way over board

Sanchez has started to have some pretty serious control issues in recent games. Limiting his innings isn't just about protecting him, it's about avoiding an implosion.

[C Court]

In Rogers Centre, they post pitcher's strikes and balls. By around the 4th inning, Sanchez was near +20 on the strike side. By the time his outing was over, he was approaching being even between strikes and balls. All of a sudden it seemed like every count for Sanchez was 2-0 or 3-0.

[Santoki]

In Rogers Centre, they post pitcher's strikes and balls. By around the 4th inning, Sanchez was near +20 on the strike side. By the time his outing was over, he was approaching being even between strikes and balls. All of a sudden it seemed like every count for Sanchez was 2-0 or 3-0.

He lost his fastball command by the 5th but his secondary pitches were good today and got him out of trouble.

The Indians for all the success they've had this series certainly aren't doing it with their bats either.

[Rapcity_11]

I actually came back here to say the same thing Gibby is always doing something (Please Use More Appropriate Word)

the same sanchez on a pitch count is who you want to start potentially game 4 and 7?

He made the right call and if there is a game 7 you have one of your better pitchers in the second half ready to go. ya'll complain to complain.

No. I wanted to pitch Sanchez game 3 and game 7. Pushing him to game 4 'means he won't pitch game 7.

And if he pitched game 7 he would have pitched no more than one game in the World Series. Pitching game 4 now lines him up for games 1 and 5 in the WS.

The point was that with or without a pitch count, he was going to start a minimum of 3 more games this season so there was absolutely no point in pushing his start back 1 day this week. It did nothing except lower the Jays chances of playing in the World Series.

It doesn't matter if Sanchez is lined up for games 1 and 5 in the WS. If they get there, he's pitching one start. Estrada would start game 1, surely. Pretty obvious no?

[Scott Hall]

**** the pitch count! Are you trying to win the ALCS or what? Some of you eat up all the crap this teams serves you like
good little rogers zombies. Everyone in baseball thought the 6 man rotation was going over board Sanchez himself was
pissed off they tried to shut him down.

He's fine an extra start and another 80-100 pitches isn't gonna kill him or make his arm fall off. He's regarded as the teams
best pitcher you never know you might not make it to the ALCS for another 20-30 years.

Listen I'm all for protecting a young pitchers arm I appreciate them being cautious but my god talk about going way over board

Sanchez has started to have some pretty serious control issues in recent games. Limiting his innings isn't just about protecting him, it's about avoiding an implosion.

My main issue is more not starting him in game 3 when he's considered a Cy Young candidate and your best starter for
a 4th starter in Stroman who isn't really good. Gibby only likes him because he has a hunch he pitches good in big games
based on a small sample size.

[Schad]

My main issue is more not starting him in game 3 when he's considered a Cy Young candidate and your best starter for
a 4th starter in Stroman who isn't really good. Gibby only likes him because he has a hunch he pitches good in big games
based on a small sample size.

That Stroman was the superior pitcher over the final two months -- and was much better in his first playoff appearance than Sanchez was in his -- might have been a contributing factor.

[The_Hater]

the same sanchez on a pitch count is who you want to start potentially game 4 and 7?

He made the right call and if there is a game 7 you have one of your better pitchers in the second half ready to go. ya'll complain to complain.

No. I wanted to pitch Sanchez game 3 and game 7. Pushing him to game 4 'means he won't pitch game 7.

And if he pitched game 7 he would have pitched no more than one game in the World Series. Pitching game 4 now lines him up for games 1 and 5 in the WS.

The point was that with or without a pitch count, he was going to start a minimum of 3 more games this season so there was absolutely no point in pushing his start back 1 day this week. It did nothing except lower the Jays chances of playing in the World Series.

It doesn't matter if Sanchez is lined up for games 1 and 5 in the WS. If they get there, he's pitching one start. Estrada would start game 1, surely. Pretty obvious no?

Not sure how it's obvious but if that does happen than Sanchez would pitch games 2 nad 6. Ther wouldn't be enough time off on between to keep the exact same order as the LCS. anchez would have to go early and pitch twice.

[Sifu]

1) Why is Bautista playing RF and Saunders DH? Is Bautista actually a better fielder than Saunders? Shouldn't they switch?

They're both garbage, but Bautista has a much better arm and can throw it back into the infield quicker and further.

I think Saunders makes that play near the wall the other day, but fails to catch the catchable single that Jose let drop as well. But you're right, they are both putrid in the field.

[Parataxis]

I'm still upset that Stroman pitched game 3 over Sanchez. I can't help but think the series might be 2-2 right now. Instead we're down 3-1 and Sanchez isn't lined up to pitch game 7. Augh.

I generally give Gibby the benefit of the doubt but he screwed this one up.

I"m not sure that Stroman was the reason the Jays couldn't score runs...

[The_Hater]

1) Why is Bautista playing RF and Saunders DH? Is Bautista actually a better fielder than Saunders? Shouldn't they switch?

They're both garbage, but Bautista has a much better arm and can throw it back into the infield quicker and further.

I think Saunders makes that play near the wall the other day, but fails to catch the catchable single that Jose let drop as well. But you're right, they are both putrid in the field.

If Saunders made that catch it would have been the best one of his career. Jose has actually played well in the OF the past 2 months. Or perhaps average is a better description. The obly reason I would start Saunders ahead of Jose is because he platoons with his defebsive replacement.

[0 - 100]

Let's do thiss

Please push Martin down the Batting order.

[The_Hater]

I'm still upset that Stroman pitched game 3 over Sanchez. I can't help but think the series might be 2-2 right now. Instead we're down 3-1 and Sanchez isn't lined up to pitch game 7. Augh.

I generally give Gibby the benefit of the doubt but he screwed this one up.

I"m not sure that Stroman was the reason the Jays couldn't score runs...

He wasn't. But Sanchez could have pitched well enough to make 2 runs stand up. And Stroman pitched well enough for the 5 runs we scored yesterday to stand up.

I realize that there's a degree of speculation there but that is exactly what happened in their respective starts.

[JN]

I'm still upset that Stroman pitched game 3 over Sanchez. I can't help but think the series might be 2-2 right now. Instead we're down 3-1 and Sanchez isn't lined up to pitch game 7. Augh.

I generally give Gibby the benefit of the doubt but he screwed this one up.

I agree that it was a poor decision, but I suspect the decision to pitch Sanchez once each series was a co-ordinated team decision between the management and coach. So I can't really pin it on Gibbons.

[Patman]

I'm still upset that Stroman pitched game 3 over Sanchez. I can't help but think the series might be 2-2 right now. Instead we're down 3-1 and Sanchez isn't lined up to pitch game 7. Augh.

I generally give Gibby the benefit of the doubt but he screwed this one up.

I"m not sure that Stroman was the reason the Jays couldn't score runs...

He wasn't. But Sanchez could have pitched well enough to make 2 runs stand up. And Stroman pitched well enough for the 5 runs we scored yesterday to stand up.

I realize that there's a degree of speculation there but that is exactly what happened in their respective starts.

This is silly backwards logic. In the same vein, I could say the Jays made a mistake by scoring 5 runs yesterday. They should've scored 3 in Game 1, and then scored 2 yesterday, instead of all 5. Then the series would be tied....

[The_Hater]

I"m not sure that Stroman was the reason the Jays couldn't score runs...

He wasn't. But Sanchez could have pitched well enough to make 2 runs stand up. And Stroman pitched well enough for the 5 runs we scored yesterday to stand up.

I realize that there's a degree of speculation there but that is exactly what happened in their respective starts.

This is silly backwards logic. In the same vein, I could say the Jays made a mistake by scoring 5 runs yesterday. They should've scored 3 in Game 1, and then scored 2 yesterday, instead of all 5. Then the series would be tied....

I get what you're saying it we didn't start Sanchez, our best pitcher this season, in game 3 and subsequently lost. Backwards logic or not I still think it wAs the wrong decision and still think we could have won both games with the opposite approach.

[Rapcity_11]

No. I wanted to pitch Sanchez game 3 and game 7. Pushing him to game 4 'means he won't pitch game 7.

And if he pitched game 7 he would have pitched no more than one game in the World Series. Pitching game 4 now lines him up for games 1 and 5 in the WS.

The point was that with or without a pitch count, he was going to start a minimum of 3 more games this season so there was absolutely no point in pushing his start back 1 day this week. It did nothing except lower the Jays chances of playing in the World Series.

It doesn't matter if Sanchez is lined up for games 1 and 5 in the WS. If they get there, he's pitching one start. Estrada would start game 1, surely. Pretty obvious no?

Not sure how it's obvious but if that does happen than Sanchez would pitch games 2 nad 6. Ther wouldn't be enough time off on between to keep the exact same order as the LCS. anchez would have to go early and pitch twice.

Happ would go game 2 on 4 days rest.
Stroman would go game 3 on 4 days rest.
Sanchez would go game 4 on X days rest.
And then Estrada, Happ, Stroman for 5, 6, 7 on enough rest.

So no, Sanchez wouldn't have to go early and pitch twice.

[Patman]

He wasn't. But Sanchez could have pitched well enough to make 2 runs stand up. And Stroman pitched well enough for the 5 runs we scored yesterday to stand up.

I realize that there's a degree of speculation there but that is exactly what happened in their respective starts.

This is silly backwards logic. In the same vein, I could say the Jays made a mistake by scoring 5 runs yesterday. They should've scored 3 in Game 1, and then scored 2 yesterday, instead of all 5. Then the series would be tied....

I get what you're saying it we didn't start Sanchez, our best pitcher this season, in game 3 and subsequently lost. Backwards logic or not I still think it wAs the wrong decision and still think we could have won both games with the opposite approach.

This only sounds like a good idea in hindsight. If you were told that we were facing Kluber one game, an injured Bauer in another game, and that we would score 5 runs and 2 runs, you would have guessed that we would score 5 runs against Bauer and the pen, and 2 runs against Kluber.

You would then have wanted Stro to pitch against Bauer confident that he could keep the Indians under 5 runs, and Sanchez against Kluber confident that he could keep the Indians under 1 run.

[The_Hater]

This is silly backwards logic. In the same vein, I could say the Jays made a mistake by scoring 5 runs yesterday. They should've scored 3 in Game 1, and then scored 2 yesterday, instead of all 5. Then the series would be tied....

I get what you're saying it we didn't start Sanchez, our best pitcher this season, in game 3 and subsequently lost. Backwards logic or not I still think it wAs the wrong decision and still think we could have won both games with the opposite approach.

This only sounds like a good idea in hindsight. If you were told that we were facing Kluber one game, an injured Bauer in another game, and that we would score 5 runs and 2 runs, you would have guessed that we would score 5 runs against Bauer and the pen, and 2 runs against Kluber.

You would then have wanted Stro to pitch against Bauer confident that he could keep the Indians under 5 runs, and Sanchez against Kluber confident that he could keep the Indians under 1 run.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. You kinda make it sound like Gibbons was purposing making those matchups when that's not he case. Bauer was initially supposed to start game 2 and Kluber wasn't announced as the game 4 starter until Monday.

Either way Sanchez is a better pitcher than Stroman and low and behold, he pitched better during his start this round. And as the facts now support, we needed better pitching in game 3 than we did in game 4. That last part is an unknown quantity but pitching your better guy, earlier, was controllable.

[Rapcity_11]

I get what you're saying it we didn't start Sanchez, our best pitcher this season, in game 3 and subsequently lost. Backwards logic or not I still think it wAs the wrong decision and still think we could have won both games with the opposite approach.

This only sounds like a good idea in hindsight. If you were told that we were facing Kluber one game, an injured Bauer in another game, and that we would score 5 runs and 2 runs, you would have guessed that we would score 5 runs against Bauer and the pen, and 2 runs against Kluber.

You would then have wanted Stro to pitch against Bauer confident that he could keep the Indians under 5 runs, and Sanchez against Kluber confident that he could keep the Indians under 1 run.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. You kinda make it sound like Gibbons was purposing making those matchups when that's not he case. Bauer was initially supposed to start game 2 and Kluber wasn't announced as the game 4 starter until Monday.

Either way Sanchez is a better pitcher than Stroman and low and behold, he pitched better during his start this round. And as the facts now support, we needed better pitching in game 3 than we did in game 4. That last part is an unknown quantity but pitching your better guy, earlier, was controllable.

That ignores the fact that there is clearly an organizational decision to only start Sanchez once in a series.

[The_Hater]

It doesn't matter if Sanchez is lined up for games 1 and 5 in the WS. If they get there, he's pitching one start. Estrada would start game 1, surely. Pretty obvious no?

Not sure how it's obvious but if that does happen than Sanchez would pitch games 2 nad 6. Ther wouldn't be enough time off on between to keep the exact same order as the LCS. anchez would have to go early and pitch twice.

Happ would go game 2 on 4 days rest.
Stroman would go game 3 on 4 days rest.
Sanchez would go game 4 on X days rest.
And then Estrada, Happ, Stroman for 5, 6, 7 on enough rest.

So no, Sanchez wouldn't have to go early and pitch twice.

Good info. But I would sincerely hope that the most important pitching decisions of our season aren't being based on refusing to let Aaron Sanchez pitch 6-7 additional innings in October. If those were make or break innings then they should have skipped an additional start back in the summer.

As it is, if we somehow come out of this series, I'll make a friendly wager with you that Sanchez ends up starting one of the first 3 games In the WS lining him up to pitch twice.