2025 NBA Draft Discussion Part 4

[Indeed]

Was seeing a lot of "Rasheer Fleming is a Masai-type" sentiments to end the previous thread, and I just wanted to say I heavily disagree with this notion.

His low AST/TO ratio for an upperclassman, mediocre BPM for an upperclassman, and low FTr for a 6'9" forward are 3 red flags that would all be all-time low marks for a Masai-type upperclassman FRP. If Masai were to take any upperclassman in the lottery, the only one who has even a slight chance is Adou Thiero.

I'm also going to re-post my "Masai-type" list update from the end of the previous thread now that a new draft thread has been started (there will probably be one more update after March Madness, but being so close the end of the season I barely expect any change):

First, my track record so far (check the dates on these posts). I didn't know about Torvik until the 2023 draft cycle which is the site I use to filter for Masai-types:

Gradey:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=105427438#p105427438
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=106576531#p106576531

Ja'Kobe (his 1st half of the season stood out big time, before his knee issues in the 2nd half caused a drop off in production):
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=110746921#p110746921
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=110829460#p110829460
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=110830588#p110830588

Mogbo (pick 31 I was tracking as a psuedo-FRP, considering it was a very early SRP):
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=112340825#p112340825

With a new draft thread up, figure it's a good time to update my "Masai-type FRP" list as a reply to my previous post:

Tier 1 - Masai-type Lottery level Freshmen:
-6'9" F Cooper Flagg (Duke, #1)
-6'6" G Dylan Harper (Rutgers, #2)
-6'5" G VJ Edgecombe (Baylor, #4)
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #5)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #6)
-6'10" PF/C Derik Queen (Maryland, #14)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #21)

Tier 2 - Masai-type Lottery level Sophomores:
-6'8" F Collin Murray-Boyles (South Carolina, #19)
-6'11" PF/C Alex Condon (Florida, #36)
-6'8" F Eric Dailey Jr. (UCLA, unranked)
-6'10" C Malique Ewin (Florida State, unranked)

Tier 3 - General Masai-type FRPs (Class added preceding their listed position):
-6'6" Jr. G Adou Thiero (Arkansas, #23)
-7'1" Sr. C Ryan Kalkbrenner (Creighton, #41)
-6'3" So. G PJ Haggerty (Memphis, #98)
-6'7" So. G Miles Byrd (San Diego State, unranked)
-6'0" Jr. PG Braden Smith (Purdue, unranked)
-6'4" Jr. PG Bennett Stirtz (Drake, unranked)
-6'8" Jr. F Joshua Jefferson (Iowa State, unranked)

Updated "Masai-type FRP" list now that the regular season is done, and before the start of major conference tournaments:

Tier 1 - Masai-type Lottery level Freshmen:
-6'9" F Cooper Flagg (Duke, #1)
-6'6" G Dylan Harper (Rutgers, #2)
-6'5" G VJ Edgecombe (Baylor, #4)
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #6)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #8)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #20)
-6'3" G Jase Richardson (Michigan State, #24)

Tier 2 - Masai-type Lottery level Sophomores:
-6'8" F Collin Murray-Boyles (South Carolina, #18)
-6'11" PF/C Alex Condon (Florida, #28)
-6'9" F JT Toppin (Texas Tech, #59)
-6'8" F Eric Dailey Jr. (UCLA, unranked)

Tier 3 - General Masai-type FRPs (Class added preceding their listed position):
-6'7" So. G Miles Byrd (San Diego State, #38)
-6'3" So. G Mason Falslev (Utah State, unranked)
-6'9" So. F Alvaro Folgueiras (Robert Morris, unranked)
-6'4" Jr. PG Bennett Stirtz (Drake, unranked)

My guess is that the top 4 freshmen on this updated list (Flagg/Harper/Edgecombe/Jakucionis) is the top 4 on Masai's big board, and the next tier below is Knueppel/Newell/CMB/Condon/Jase.

Quick explainer on Jase being so high on this list despite never being on it in my previous updates. His role has been increasing as the season has went along, and since becoming a starter, his starter vs bench splits are very interesting.

Bench (from start of the season to Feb 4):
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&minGP=1&year=2025&kw=jase%20richardson&start=20241101&end=20250204

Starter (since Feb 5):
https://barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?link=y&minGP=1&year=2025&kw=jase%20richardson&start=20250205&end=20250501

This is what I see as well.
Meanwhile, I also question if Dick (Flynn and Ross) is his type of picks. Ujiri seems to pick on elite athlete with good BPM (Barnes - max vert, Siakam / OG - above average wingspan, Agbaji - max vert.

That being said, I think these may not be part of the list
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #6)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #8)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #20)

Adding
Queen, Fears, Philon , Sorber (depends on measurement), etc. might in the tiers
Undraft may also include Xaivian Lee

[BoyzNTheHood]

This kid should be a lottery pick

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?s=46&t=iDergfyDJveIq9pY2qCCBQ

[Jerry Lucas]

This is what I see as well.
Meanwhile, I also question if Dick (Flynn and Ross) is his type of picks. Ujiri seems to pick on elite athlete with good BPM (Barnes - max vert, Siakam / OG - above average wingspan, Agbaji - max vert.

The Malachi pick was part of the pre-existing dataset I used to identify Gradey as a Masai-type before the 2023 draft (my proof of track record is in my original post with links). Malachi and Gradey are definitely both Masai-types. To be clear, just because Masai is one of the best executives (if not the best) at drafting in the NBA, doesn't mean he bats 1000.

That being said, I think these may not be part of the list
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #6)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #8)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #20)

Adding
Queen, Fears, Philon , Sorber (depends on measurement), etc. might in the tiers
Undraft may also include Xaivian Lee

I like Queen and Sorber myself, I'm just not sure if they are Masai-types. Not really any major flags, but more so minor flags like production inconsistencies.

Philon has been on the list in previous updates (along with Queen and Sorber), but I think everything with him hinges on whether he can improve his 3PT shooting. If his 3PT shooting ends up as bad as projected (for a guard), he's just another Kennedy Chandler to me.

Fears, hard disagree. Once I heard he reportedly has a shorter wingspan than height, I stopped looking at him. There are other red flags, but if a prospect has a shorter wingspan than height, there is no way Masai is drafting that guy.

[Indeed]

This is what I see as well.
Meanwhile, I also question if Dick (Flynn and Ross) is his type of picks. Ujiri seems to pick on elite athlete with good BPM (Barnes - max vert, Siakam / OG - above average wingspan, Agbaji - max vert.

The Malachi pick was part of the pre-existing dataset I used to identify Gradey as a Masai-type (my proof of track record is in my original post with links). Malachi and Gradey are definitely both Masai-types. To be clear, just because Masai is one of the best executives (if not the best) at drafting in the NBA, doesn't mean he bats 1000.

That being said, I think these may not be part of the list
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #6)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #8)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #20)

Adding
Queen, Fears, Philon , Sorber (depends on measurement), etc. might in the tiers
Undraft may also include Xaivian Lee

I like Queen and Sorber myself, I'm just not sure if they are Masai-types. Not really any major flags, but more so minor flags like production inconsistencies.

Philon has been on the list in previous updates (along with Queen and Sorber), but I think everything with him hinges on whether he can improve his 3PT shooting. If his 3PT shooting ends up as bad as projected (for a guard), he's just another Kennedy Chandler to me.

Fears, hard disagree. Once I heard he reportedly has a shorter wingspan than height, I stopped looking at him. There are other red flags, but if a prospect has a shorter wingspan than height, there is no way Masai is drafting that guy.

The only pick that I feel is similar to Flynn and Dick is Fournier. You can be right those being Ujiri picks, but I think Ujiri is more interested in athletes, which also gives higher ceiling in turns higher reward. And these shooters with lack of defense really doesn't seem to get minutes from the coaches other than development minutes.

As for Fears, he has a longer wingspan than height, but not spectacular. He is 6'4 (maybe 6'3 by some people) with shoes and 6'6 wingspan. Quickley has 6'8 wingspan, which I think we are more looking for that type. Would not be surprised we are more interested in Philon than Fears because of that.

[LoveMyRaps]

Fears might have a Suggs/Mathurin type leap following the tourney.
Could end up going 5-7.

[Psubs]

Really though, why draft Fears when we have Jakobe Walter?

Walter has better size with the wingspan and has already shown to show some great defensive potential guarding POA and 1's-3's, enough to make Agbaji not needed.

No need for Philon either.

Watch on YouTube

[LoveMyRaps]

Really though, why draft Fears when we have Jakobe Walter?

Walter has better size with the wingspan and has already shown to show some great defensive potential guarding POA and 1's-3's, enough to make Agbaji not needed.

Watch on YouTube

We don't need more guards. But if you're drafting BPA and Fears is atop that list, you have to pick him.

[LoveMyRaps]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

Read on Twitter

[Jerry Lucas]

This is what I see as well.
Meanwhile, I also question if Dick (Flynn and Ross) is his type of picks. Ujiri seems to pick on elite athlete with good BPM (Barnes - max vert, Siakam / OG - above average wingspan, Agbaji - max vert.

The Malachi pick was part of the pre-existing dataset I used to identify Gradey as a Masai-type (my proof of track record is in my original post with links). Malachi and Gradey are definitely both Masai-types. To be clear, just because Masai is one of the best executives (if not the best) at drafting in the NBA, doesn't mean he bats 1000.

That being said, I think these may not be part of the list
-6'6" G Kasparas Jakucionis (Illinois, #6)
-6'7" G Kon Knueppel (Duke, #8)
-6'11" PF/C Asa Newell (Georgia, #20)

Adding
Queen, Fears, Philon , Sorber (depends on measurement), etc. might in the tiers
Undraft may also include Xaivian Lee

I like Queen and Sorber myself, I'm just not sure if they are Masai-types. Not really any major flags, but more so minor flags like production inconsistencies.

Philon has been on the list in previous updates (along with Queen and Sorber), but I think everything with him hinges on whether he can improve his 3PT shooting. If his 3PT shooting ends up as bad as projected (for a guard), he's just another Kennedy Chandler to me.

Fears, hard disagree. Once I heard he reportedly has a shorter wingspan than height, I stopped looking at him. There are other red flags, but if a prospect has a shorter wingspan than height, there is no way Masai is drafting that guy.

The only pick that I feel is similar to Flynn and Dick is Fournier. You can be right those being Ujiri picks, but I think Ujiri is more interested in athletes, which also gives higher ceiling in turns higher reward. And these shooters with lack of defense really doesn't seem to get minutes from the coaches other than development minutes.

As for Fears, he has a longer wingspan than height, but not spectacular. He is 6'4 (maybe 6'3 by some people) with shoes and 6'6 wingspan. Quickley has 6'8 wingspan, which I think we are more looking for that type. Would not be surprised we are more interested in Philon than Fears because of that.

Fears last reported measurements were 6'4" with a 6'3" wingspan. I saw the 6'6" wingspan estimate, but the methodology given behind that was an "assumption based on the average wingspan of 6'4 to 6'5 prospects from the last three NBA Draft classes", that "it's safe to assume his arms have significantly grown in length to be at least 6'6 in length." Personally, I won't be making any assumptions like that when it comes to measurements.

[Indeed]

Really though, why draft Fears when we have Jakobe Walter?

Walter has better size with the wingspan and has already shown to show some great defensive potential guarding POA and 1's-3's, enough to make Agbaji not needed.

No need for Philon either.

Watch on YouTube

Because Fears being a PG who can provide rim pressure is different than Walter?
You read the scouting report?
Fears has one of the highest assist rate in the draft and one of the best rim pressure (eg. Fox without that vertical).

Jakucionis might be the better comparison to Walter

[Son Goku 25]

Fears gonna be another Desmond Banes cuz of wingspan y'all think? I mean clearly fears has more of a bag and pg skills but in terms of teams shying away due to wingspan etc.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Fears gonna be another Desmond Banes cuz of wingspan y'all think? I mean clearly fears has more of a bag and pg skills but in terms of teams shying away due to wingspan etc.

Masai made the mistake of passing on Bane for Flynn. Hopefully he learned from that.

[Psubs]

Fears gonna be another Desmond Banes cuz of wingspan y'all think? I mean clearly fears has more of a bag and pg skills but in terms of teams shying away due to wingspan etc.

Just from stats and tape, he looked so strong and balanced with his shot, it looked really repeatable. He looked strong enough to guard SG's and his A/T was good enough. He may not get a lot of blocks or steals because of the wingspan but he looks solid.

I guess this is how I feel about Rasheer Fleming except he has the great wingspan but not the normal height to play C, but the combo might be enough. He hits the 3 pretty well and he's physically strong and fit.

[Dalek]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

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Givony is a guy I have trusted for years due to his DX days. He is the guy you trust with the European player market but this year there isn't a lot of outstanding players who are producing yet he keeps talking about some of these guys as FRPs or higher.

I mean Traore has some real speed and defensive limits, and he isn't an great shooter to make you forget. It is a really tough argument to make because in a lot of ways I would worry he would be a struggle making rotations like Killian Hayes has had after being a hyped guard from France. Traore's agent is Jelani Floyd from Wasserman.

He also has pumped up Joan Beringer and he's had some good moments, but doesn't have outstanding size and is a rim runner only. His agent is Sead Galijasevic from Wasserman.

Maybe, just maybe Givony is doing favors for Wasserman agents to hype up their guys. I mean, he gets a lot of access to workouts and interviews as a result which is good for his ESPN audience.

[ArthurVandelay]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

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Givony is a guy I have trusted for years due to his DX days. He is the guy you trust with the European player market but this year there isn't a lot of outstanding players who are producing yet he keeps talking about some of these guys as FRPs or higher.

I mean Traore has some real speed and defensive limits, and he isn't an great shooter to make you forget. It is a really tough argument to make because in a lot of ways I would worry he would be a struggle making rotations like Killian Hayes has had after being a hyped guard from France. Traore's agent is Jelani Floyd from Wasserman.

He also has pumped up Joan Beringer and he's had some good moments, but doesn't have outstanding size and is a rim runner only. His agent is Sead Galijasevic from Wasserman.

Maybe, just maybe Givony is doing favors for Wasserman agents to hype up their guys. I mean, he gets a lot of access to workouts and interviews as a result which is good for his ESPN audience.

The guy behind DX with the brains was hired by Portland (Mike Schultz).

Givony is a mouthpiece imo like Woj/Shams for rumors and trades.

[grant101]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

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His stats have been bad, but I'm still a believer. He's so good attacking downhill and love that he finishes with both hands. Reminds me of Jaden Ivey with better playmaking. If the shot ever comes around, he's going to make a lot of GMs look silly for passing on him if he ends up falling outside the lottery.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

Read on Twitter

Givony is a guy I have trusted for years due to his DX days. He is the guy you trust with the European player market but this year there isn't a lot of outstanding players who are producing yet he keeps talking about some of these guys as FRPs or higher.

I mean Traore has some real speed and defensive limits, and he isn't an great shooter to make you forget. It is a really tough argument to make because in a lot of ways I would worry he would be a struggle making rotations like Killian Hayes has had after being a hyped guard from France. Traore's agent is Jelani Floyd from Wasserman.

He also has pumped up Joan Beringer and he's had some good moments, but doesn't have outstanding size and is a rim runner only. His agent is Sead Galijasevic from Wasserman.

Maybe, just maybe Givony is doing favors for Wasserman agents to hype up their guys. I mean, he gets a lot of access to workouts and interviews as a result which is good for his ESPN audience.

The guy behind DX with the brains was hired by Portland (Mike Schultz).

Givony is a mouthpiece imo like Woj/Shams for rumors and trades.

There isn't a single mainstream analyst whose opinions are worth half a cent. They are all essentially the basketball equivalents of Mel Kiper Jr.

[Psubs]

Here's your daily dose of Traore:

Read on Twitter

Givony is a guy I have trusted for years due to his DX days. He is the guy you trust with the European player market but this year there isn't a lot of outstanding players who are producing yet he keeps talking about some of these guys as FRPs or higher.

I mean Traore has some real speed and defensive limits, and he isn't an great shooter to make you forget. It is a really tough argument to make because in a lot of ways I would worry he would be a struggle making rotations like Killian Hayes has had after being a hyped guard from France. Traore's agent is Jelani Floyd from Wasserman.

He also has pumped up Joan Beringer and he's had some good moments, but doesn't have outstanding size and is a rim runner only. His agent is Sead Galijasevic from Wasserman.

Maybe, just maybe Givony is doing favors for Wasserman agents to hype up their guys. I mean, he gets a lot of access to workouts and interviews as a result which is good for his ESPN audience.

Traore is like Euro Fears but playing against men already.

[Yallbecrazy]

I asked the Gators sub reddit about Haugh and Condon and the consensus seemed to be this is up there with the deepest front court they've ever had and they once had Corey Brewer, Mareese Speights, Joakim Noah, and Al Horford all getting minutes on the same team.

They also indicated that Condon was easily better than the rest on the current team, but not to worry about the on/off differences with him since all of them were top notch.

edit: Condon was also a water polo goalie apparently.

[MEDIC]

Love this kid from Duke. 6'8" & can shoot the lights out.

Watch on YouTube