Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years

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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#41 » by Quotatious » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:50 am

mischievous wrote:To me, 2012 Lebron is easily better than the 2015 version. I don't think its even close honestly.

I agree. I really don't know why some people are so low on 2012 LeBron compared to 2009, 2010 and 2013. I mean - 2012 was the first season when he started to use his post game a lot, his defense was outstanding (he didn't coast, he played with good effort all the time). Playmaking was a bit worse than usual, but it certainly wasn't a dramatic difference. His 3-pt shot was really cold in the postseason, but he still shot 50% from the field, and was able to go to the foul line 10+ times per game (averaged 2.5 FTA more, compared to '13).

Also, his mental toughness and "killer instinct", "will to win" (yeah, I know I sound like Skip Bayless right now, lol) were at its peak that year, too. In the playoffs, I never felt like he was going to lose, even as a Celtics fan at that time.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#42 » by mischievous » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:58 am

Quotatious wrote:
mischievous wrote:To me, 2012 Lebron is easily better than the 2015 version. I don't think its even close honestly.

I agree. I really don't know why some people are so low on 2012 LeBron compared to 2009, 2010 and 2013. I mean - 2012 was the first season when he started to use his post game a lot, his defense was outstanding (he didn't coast, he played with good effort all the time). Playmaking was a bit worse than usual, but it certainly wasn't a dramatic difference. His 3-pt shot was really cold in the postseason, but he still shot 50% from the field, and was able to go to the foul line 10+ times per game (averaged 2.5 FTA more, compared to '13).

Also, his mental toughness and "killer instinct", "will to win" (yeah, I know I sound like Skip Bayless right now, lol) were at its peak that year, too. In the playoffs, I never felt like he was going to lose, even as a Celtics fan at that time.

Yeah, i mean 13 Lebron had better efficiency in the regular season, other than that i don't see what makes 2013 so much better. His finals against the Spurs was problematic for me.

For me, after watching Lebron a lot in his career i felt like 2012 was his best season. As i said i don't think 2015 was close to that level, Lebron was arguably not a top 2 player last year and certainly wasn't the best for me. If his 2012 self were plugged into the 2015 season he would be far and away the best player.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#43 » by RSCD3_ » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:47 am

trex_8063 wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:I found BBallref's per 100 possession estimates for each team

64 Wilt RS 32.1 PP100 15.1 RP100 4.3 AP100 on 53.7 TS%
64 Wilt PS 30.1 PP100 22.2 RP100 2.9 AP100 on 54.3 TS%

67 Wilt RS 19.6 PP100 19.7 RP100 6.3 AP100 on 63.7 TS%
67 Wilt PS 17.7PP100 23.7 RP100 7.3 AP100 on 54.6 TS%


??
bbref doesn't have per 100 possession estimates prior to '74.

I've prepared per 100 estimates for multiple players, but they're pretty vastly different from these results in some places:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xTcce_cLHEmvG6Dft5QwsYnhzh_dBk4gyYXoJiWY4T8/edit


Bump-asking this question: How did you come by your figures?

Strictly speaking, they CAN'T be straight-up per 100 possession estimates (at least not for the '64 rs figures you present): his pts:reb ratio in '64 was 1.6497......yet the ratio in the per 100 estimates you propose is 2.12583. Does not compute, you know?

And while the ratios hold more or less true/steady in the other figures, they differ to varying degrees from the estimates I have (and I'm pretty meticulous--->I basically don't round off at any point in the process).


If you look under NBA summary it gives possessions by teams in the case of 62 Wilt, 131.8 Pace is what they give the warriors, factor in wilt almost never resting and his possessions per game should be about the same, I then normalized to 100 possessions.

For the secondary figures I just changed these estimates to 93.9 and then I multiplied by a factor of .96 which is roughly equal to 45/48 and used it as a baseline for wilts performances if he played nowadays, that second line has a lot more to do with personal prefrence and estimates on my part but check out 1967 Nba Summary and it will show in miscelllaneous stats, that PHI has a pace of 122.9. There maybe some rounding issues though but only with the modern day adjustments. The per 100 should check out
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#44 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:27 am

RSCD3_ wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:I found BBallref's per 100 possession estimates for each team

64 Wilt RS 32.1 PP100 15.1 RP100 4.3 AP100 on 53.7 TS%
64 Wilt PS 30.1 PP100 22.2 RP100 2.9 AP100 on 54.3 TS%

67 Wilt RS 19.6 PP100 19.7 RP100 6.3 AP100 on 63.7 TS%
67 Wilt PS 17.7PP100 23.7 RP100 7.3 AP100 on 54.6 TS%


??
bbref doesn't have per 100 possession estimates prior to '74.

I've prepared per 100 estimates for multiple players, but they're pretty vastly different from these results in some places:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xTcce_cLHEmvG6Dft5QwsYnhzh_dBk4gyYXoJiWY4T8/edit


Bump-asking this question: How did you come by your figures?

Strictly speaking, they CAN'T be straight-up per 100 possession estimates (at least not for the '64 rs figures you present): his pts:reb ratio in '64 was 1.6497......yet the ratio in the per 100 estimates you propose is 2.12583. Does not compute, you know?

And while the ratios hold more or less true/steady in the other figures, they differ to varying degrees from the estimates I have (and I'm pretty meticulous--->I basically don't round off at any point in the process).


If you look under NBA summary it gives possessions by teams in the case of 62 Wilt, 131.8 Pace is what they give the warriors, factor in wilt almost never resting and his possessions per game should be about the same, I then normalized to 100 possessions.


OK, same basic method as for the estimates in the spreadsheet I provided; but you have a couple errors there (one in an input, another in the method), and then apparently some mathematical error you made somewhere in your calculations (for rebounds in '64, at least-->pts:reb ratio should be constant, whether you're talking about per game or per 100 possessions):

1) (the input error): You mentioned the Warriors pace in '62 was 131.8 (it's actually listed as 131.1). At any rate, the numbers you posted above were for '64 Wilt, though. Possibly you used the [marginally incorrect] '62 pace to compute his '64 per 100 estimates??? The Warriors pace in '64 was just 115.1.
2) (the small method error): Pace is an estimate of possessions per 48 minutes; Wilt averaged 46.1 mpg in '64 (46.1125, to be precise; and I like precise). So he'd have been averaging 110.574 possessions per game. You might have used a much more "rough" estimate???
3) This still wouldn't account for the results you obtained, though. I mean, if you did indeed (despite citing '62's pace above) use the correct pace for '64, our discrepancies for points and assists might be in rounding and in assuming the Wilt "basically never rests" (as apposed to making use of his mpg). But there's some other manner of mathematical and/or input error (or both) occurring in the rebounds estimate. I'll go thru my math for '64 (pts, reb, and ast):

Bbased on the 110.574 possessions/game I established above, pts would look like this:
[100/110.574] = [x/36.85]
x = 33.3 pts/100 possessions

For his rebounds, it would be:
[100/110.574] = [x/22.3375]
x = 20.2 reb/100 possessions

Assists.....
[100/110.574] = [x/5.0375]
x = 4.6 ast/100 possessions


RSCD3_ wrote: that PHI has a pace of 122.9. There maybe some rounding issues though but only with the modern day adjustments. The per 100 should check out


They're somewhat close; close enough it's likely just be a rounding and/or rough-estimating the playing time thing (all your estimates for '67 came out a touch low, but not drastically so). I don't know what happened with your '64 rebounds estimate, though. I've shown my homework, so you can double-check it.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#45 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:30 am

70sFan wrote:
I found BBallref's per 100 possession estimates for each team

64 Wilt RS 32.1 PP100 15.1 RP100 4.3 AP100 on 53.7 TS%
64 Wilt PS 30.1 PP100 22.2 RP100 2.9 AP100 on 54.3 TS%

67 Wilt RS 19.6 PP100 19.7 RP100 6.3 AP100 on 63.7 TS%
67 Wilt PS 17.7PP100 23.7 RP100 7.3 AP100 on 54.6 TS%


and just to further that transferring his TS% and pace numbers to League average nowadays would give him

Corrected to 2015 PACE and League Averages ( and slight correction for the 3 minutes or so he had of rest )

64 RS 28.9 PPG 13.6 RPG 3.8 APG on 58.6 TS%
64 PS 27.1 PPG 20.0 RPG 2.6 APG on 59.3 TS%

67 RS 17.7 PPG 17.8 RPG 5.7 AP100 on 67.8 TS%
67 PS 16.0 PPG 21.3 RPG 6.6 APG on 58.7 TS%
AFTER seeing this and quotatious point I have decided to change my vote in my first post.


Could you do this with 1962 and 1966 seasons? This would be nice



fwiw, use this spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xTcce_cLHEmvG6Dft5QwsYnhzh_dBk4gyYXoJiWY4T8/edit#gid=0
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#46 » by SideshowBob » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:27 am

Quotatious wrote:I agree. I really don't know why some people are so low on 2012 LeBron compared to 2009, 2010 and 2013. I mean - 2012 was the first season when he started to use his post game a lot, his defense was outstanding (he didn't coast, he played with good effort all the time). Playmaking was a bit worse than usual, but it certainly wasn't a dramatic difference. His 3-pt shot was really cold in the postseason, but he still shot 50% from the field, and was able to go to the foul line 10+ times per game (averaged 2.5 FTA more, compared to '13).

Also, his mental toughness and "killer instinct", "will to win" (yeah, I know I sound like Skip Bayless right now, lol) were at its peak that year, too. In the playoffs, I never felt like he was going to lose, even as a Celtics fan at that time.



mischievous wrote:Btw, i have 2012 as Lebron's peak but if i had to choose between 09 and 13 i would give a slight nod to 2009.


lol. I mean I thought I broke it down rather thoroughly in the posts earlier, but I guess not. I understand that everyone's got different criteria here, but I just don't get how you could have watched 2012 and 2013 (please feel free to explain :)) and gotten the impression that 2012 was better? Quotes, with regards to 2015 vs. 2012, IMO best case scenario for 2015 is they're tied, 2015 lacks the consistency/durability/stamina in the RS in comparison with 2012, and its debatable whether his better 2015 offense (I'll get into this below) can make up for it.

Now, let's get REALLY thorough (I wish we had easy access to full-game footage, even if just PS).

First, let's consider something. What makes Lebron, Lebron? Above all else? It is his drive-and-kick game. Make no mistake about it, this is the core of who Lebron is, exceptional first-step quickness/explosion to beat defenders off the dribble, get to the basket and finish at 70-80% (which is Shaq/Barkley-esque, except being able to do this from the perimeter is perhaps even more significant). As a result, defenses MUST collapse (smarter defenses make more drastic adjustments, which can succeed or backfire, case in point 2013 Spurs games 1/2/3/5/6 vs. 4/7), which leaves shooters open and creates seams for cutters, and Lebron, with his exceptional vision and physical passing ability, is able to find these guys for easy, high-percentage buckets, or those guys can dish out a hockey assist to an even better basket (which is still created by Lebron's penetration). This is where the bulk of his +/- or RAPM impact comes from, everything else (shooting ability, post-game, movement, etc.) is all secondary/tertiary, it is meant to complement/supplement this or to have additional options available (for both stamina and strategy). I understand that this seems like I'm pointing out the obvious here, but reiterating all of this makes it easier to make my next point.

2011 and 2012 Lebron don't quite have this ability! Or better yet, drastically lack it to the degree that the other versions I'm specifically championing (09/10/13/14/15) do. Let's say the hypothetical perfect offensive player is a +8. Lebron's offense in his top years is in the vicinity of +5-6.5, and no player ever has really gone too far beyond that range (Bird/Nash/Jordan/Magic). And let's say in 2009, at his slashing best, his drive-and-kick game makes up +2.75 of that 5-6.5. Here's how I would rate 09-15 relative to 2009.

2009 - 100
2010 - 98
2011 - 25
2012 - 35
2013 - 60
2014 - 80
2015 - 75

Before we move forward with this, my explanation as to why 2011 and 2012 are so far below the pack is his weight gain. There's already been an extensive thread and extensive discussion on his athletic/explosive/quickness dropoff in 2011 and 2012. He added mass, lost his quickness and upper body control and diminished as a slasher (unable to blow-by most defenders unless he got a switch on a particularly immobile big, not agile at high/quick speeds to wind through defenses, lacking the body control to be the level of finisher he once was). In 2012 he dropped a bit of weight, and there was a minor improvement but nothing dramatic. 2013 OTOH, he dropped a considerable amount of weight, and then shed a bit more in 2014 as well, to the point where he was a drastically more effective slasher in those years. HE CAN STILL LEAP OUT OF THE BUILDING THOUGH PLEASE LET'S NOT BRUSH THIS ALL OFF WITH HIGHLIGHTS OF LEBRON JUMPING OVER JOHN LUCAS III I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES MY ENTIRE ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN NULLIFIED WITH SILLY DUNKING HIGHLIGHT VIDEOS.

Again, I wish we had better available game footage, but at least pay close attention to the highlights (maybe I'll try to dig out some examples that make this clear). 2012 Lebron is not frequently creating baskets through slashing; he's gotten very smart at finding backdoor cuts, he's dabbling in the post a little more than before, and but his jumper, while solid, is inconsistent and not quite as good as it was in the three previous years or the two following ones.

This means that his bread-and-butter as described above, the drive-and-kick game is heavily diminished. Why should that matter you say? If he can still put up 27 and 6 assists on 61% TS and 30 and 5 assists on 58% TS against solid competition in the playoffs? Why should the method matter if he can still put up the production in other ways? Because those 27/6 and 30/5 are being produced on like 30 possessions, and Lebron plays 70-85 possessions a game (higher end in the playoffs), and the amount of impact he has on those leftover 40-55 possessions is greatly diminished when his primary offensive option is 35% as good as it once was.

That +2.75 from slashing has now become less than a +1. How would we rate out the rest of 09's offensive game?

2009

-Improved jumpshot over previous years following the Olympics. This changes the way defenders cover him, because while they have to give him space to cover the drive, they can't give him too much because now he's better at hitting them with some space. Plus he's also a solid 3-point shooter so he can space the floor a little bit and occasionally pullup from outside as well. Let's say his improved jumpshot adds +1.

-Playmaking and pick-and-roll play. He can run/operate an offense from the top like a PG. He can manipulate defensive rotations to create ideal matchups for his teammates with playcalling, run the PnR with the threat to drive, hit the roll man, hit the pop man, or pullup himself with his better jumper OR sell any one of these actions, force a missed rotation/over-commital by the defenders and find an open basket or three-pointer. Let's say this is a +1.50.

-Primitive post-game, decent off-ball game (doesn't get to showcase much given how much Cleveland relies on him to create) He's better at both in 2010, I'd say these sum to break-even.

-Transition game. Best fastbreak finisher in the league, can finish in either direction, go through, over, or blow by defenders, and is arguably one of the best at finding leading AND trailing teammates as well. Even cleans up the glass on the trail on occasion. Still, fastbreak possessions are hard to come by and even more rare in the postseason. Let's say this is an additional +0.25.

Summary

Slashing +2.75
Shooting +1.0
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.0

Overall +5.5. Best offensive player in the league in a season where Wade, Paul, Kobe are peaking

2010

I think he's like a quarter step slower, but all skills have been refined, I would go:

Slashing +2.75
Shooting +1.25
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.25

Overall +6.0. Best offensive player in the league (Nash has a monster year as well) and entering offensive GOAT territory

2011

-Major dropoff in athleticism. Halfcourt slashing game just isn't there anymore (he can get to the basket with an open lane though), though in semi-transition with a head of steam he can still barrel through and get to the basket (though his offensive foul rate shoots up this year) but he's not quite as good a finisher as before or later either (too much upper body mass, not enough body control/contortion ability to avoid/dodge defenders/deterrence). All this means that defenses aren't as worried about his basket pressure, they don't have to collapse unless he attacks, and he doesn't really attack, and there's not a lot of preventive measures anymore either (strong side overload, packing the paint, heavy shading, icing the PnR, etc.), and thus the teammates off the ball are just not getting the kind of looks that the other Lebron's would be able to provide them with his penetration. I've rated his slashing +0.50, 25% of his 09 peak.

-Shooting is pretty much improved across the board except for a couple issues. The 3 point shot isn't quite as good as 2010, where he was so deadly off the dribble and spotting up. He's also not quite as good at actually using his dribble to create them because A.) he no longer has the threat of the drive to force defenders to give space and B.) the added weight has also affected his coordination, which hampers his ball-handling a little bit, so he can't use the dribble as effectively to create separation. But everywhere else he's clearly better, his jumpshot anywhere from 10-23 feet is crazy deadly, in the 2011 calendar year he was shooting nearly 49% from that range and following the all-star break, ~55% (!!). Overall, I credit him +1.25 for shooting, accounting for both shifts.

-ITO playmaking and PnR play, the slashing dropoff has just made his overall creation game weaker. Now he's relegated to pretty much only relying on defenders over-committing, and/or taking advantage of his better midrange jumpshot on the pullup. He's still got his vision/passing ability, so you can bet when he sees a seam or opportunity for a teammate, he's going to capitalize, BUT the problem is he's no longer creating as many opportunities (Elgee actually used to track this, perhaps he still does). I rate this a +1.00.

-Transition game is interesting. On one hand, he's got better teammates to dish it to in Wade/Bosh (though Varejao, Hickson, etc. were solid finishers in their own right). On the other hand, he's not quite as good a finisher at the basket, although when he's got that head of steam, he's still pretty much unstoppable. I'd still rate him at +0.25 for transition offense, he's still probably the amongst the deadliest open-court players in the league.

-Post-game is weaker than 2010, when he had begun playmaking in the low-post (or draw fouls) and used the mid-post face-up game as he was able to use a quick explosive step to get to the basket. Off-ball game is slightly better later in the season, when he learns to take advantage of the attention Wade/Bosh can receive in their own two-man game or even just on Wade drives, and starts to find quick and easy cuts to the basket. I rate this about the same as 2010, gain in one area, loss in the other. +0.25

Summary

Slashing +0.50
Shooting +1.25
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.25

Overall +3.25

Major dropoff (and one of the weaker offensive seasons of his career, IMO even 06 and 08 are better). Notice how much he relies on easy/opportunistic buckets, and his self-creation is limited to shooting. THIS is the biggest reason for his major dip in scoring in the postseason. Luckily he was near his defensive peak. Also, just to be clear, this is still an elite offensive player, heck you start seeing all-star selections at the +2.0 threshold overall, and Lebron's +3.25 on just offense. What it isn't is best in the league type of offense (In 2011 Wade, Dirk, Paul, Nash are absolutely better, Durant, Kobe are probably better, and guys like Rose and Westbrook are not far below him).

2012

-The good: he's shed some weight, and isn't quite as inadequate as before AND he's also started to refine/add to his skillset in order to try to combat the athletic dropoff. The bad: that weight gain isn't enough, and his new skills aren't quite polished yet.

-Slashing, slightly better than 2011 but still pretty lacking. I still see him as incapable of consistently breaking defenders down off the dribble, and very rarely do we see blowbys (though unlike 2011, we at least see them). Again, with a head of steam from full or halfcourt (in semi-transition OR when he brings the ball up himself) he can manage to blow through defenders and get to the basket, but from a standstill in the halfcourt? Almost no chance, he's more likely going to just try and run PnR or isolate and jack up a jumpshot. Still very little drive-and-kick and again, this means fewer open shots created by him at large volume. He's a little quicker/better than 2011, he's smart enough to get advantageous switches on the PnR to draw bigs that he can occasionally drive by, but its nowhere near the same as what we're about to see in the next season. I give his slashing game a +0.75 for this year.

-Shooting is interesting. He starts off hot for the first few weeks, then if I recall correctly, injures his hand and doesn't quite look the same again for the rest of the season (and really struggles in the playoffs). He starts the season not shooting much at all, particularly 3 pointers, which I wasn't a fan of (a lot of those 3s just got replaced by long 2s instead), and then spends the rest of the season being really selective with his 3 point shooting, preferring to take wide open ones and often passing up those that would hurt his %. Typical intuition says that this is smart, but the problem is that he's often passing these up late in the shot clock for worse shots for his teammates, rather than simply dishing it to a better shot; in those cases I'd rather he just take them. This makes his % look rather nice, but he couldn't continue doing this in the postseason and it showed in the numbers. Mid-range shooting itself sees a similar struggle especially the long 2s, but he does improve his actual on-ball shot creation ability, incorporating rocker-steps, jabs, fakes, etc. to throw off defenders and buy himself some space. However, impressively, his inner midrange game (5-15 feet) thrives, and I'll get to this a little more when discussing the post-game. Overall though, I dock him from 2011 for his shooting, and the close-range shooting points will be awarded in the post-category. +1.00

-PnR/Playmaking. I don't see much change from 2011. Slightly better at taking advantage of seams created on the PnR because he's a little bit quicker than the year before, but his jumpshot is worse when trying to pullup. +1.00

-I've separated post-game and off-ball game now, as he's made decent strides in both. Lets talk post first. So, as Quotatious said, this is the first year he really starts utilizing this. That's a key statement because A.) it means he's not quite that great at yet it but also B.) it adds a completely new avenue in his game (new tool against defenses and a whole new way to playmake). So yeah he starts using this now, he's really good at getting good and ideal positioning for himself because of his lower-body strength, and that also allows him to work against stronger defenders when he's down there, which means he can now very effectively be played at the PF. Of course we later see teams adjust to this positional change in the following seasons but in 2012, teams weren't quite ready for this. His game is relatively limited though, power-down weaker/smaller defenders and get inside and finish, tries the jump-hook but isn't consistent with it and doesn't use it game-to-game, loves the counter (the jumper over the right-shoulder) so much that it practically becomes his go-to option in the playoffs (and he's awesome at it, shot like 47-48% for the year from the 10-15 ft range) as he gets SO much elevation on the jumpshot. Kind of a problem though, because he just doesn't really go middle (though he's also got a nice little floater for secondary rotating bigs), and doesn't have the drop-step of later years when going baseline to be able to get right to the rim. He hasn't begun to gobble up attention yet, but he's still exceptional at recognizing when defenders will turn their attention to him (often from the weak side corner) and finds open shooters on reversal AND finds guys in position to pass it to an open[er] man (hockey-assist). This is a dynamic and important addition to the toolbox and one that would develop and thrive later on. +0.5

-Off-ball game is also blooming. He's gotten comfortable and frequent with the backdoor cuts and is better at just moving, which, given his threat to finish (much easier to get to the basket off the ball than on it), can throw defenses into complete distortion. He's also starting to actively set screens, be the roll/pop man on the PnR (mostly with Wade - which is impossible to defend - but also a bit with Chalmers), and this is also the season where he was a presence on the offensive glass. This gets a +0.75.

-Transition is again about the same. Honestly it's probably been roughly the same year-in-year-out, he's pretty consistent on this front. +0.25

Summary

Slashing +0.75
Shooting +1.00
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.5
Off-Ball +0.75


Overall +4.5. Elite offensive player, best in the league level (Durant and Paul are rather impressive as well this season). Note that his assists are down due to A.) cut in slashing, B.) more frequent post-play so more hockey assists and C.) more off-ball play so less time spent playmaking from the perimeter.

Now let's get to the meat here, 13-15. From 2011 -> 2015, Lebron sheds weight in every single offseason. The most visibly obvious change came during the 2012 Olympics, 2 months after winning his first title, Lebron looked noticeably slimmer in the USA training camp. Once the games began, the effect was obvious, we saw him moving around with quickness, fluidity and agility that we hadn't seen in over 2 years, as well as making some highlight worthy athletic plays. Small sample though, so I wanted to see what would hold up once the real season rolled along and the results were stellar. While not quite 09 WTF levels of explosive, this was a considerable leap over 2011 and 2012; almost instantly, his entire game became centered around slashing again, and the effects of this on the team performance were pretty obvious. But what would come later as the season rolled along I really did not expect; Lebron had become better at literally every other thing on the offensive end as well.

2013

-Slashing. Not quite his 09 peak, but not far off either (I gave it a 60 above). He's now essentially able to blow by 90% of defenders given he's faced with single coverage and average middle rotation, but somehow, he's managed to become an even better finisher (now finishing in the high 70s AND draining things around the basket as well in the 3-10 ft area). He's finding shooters left and right, especially against weaker teams that can only adjust to his insane finishing ability by collapsing, which means the plethora of shooters are just almost gonna be open. Smarter and better equipped teams start to build a wall inside (at a cost, you have to cheat somewhere, but well disciplined teams have the defenders trained to be able to recover quickly or to have other guys pick up the slack via positioning/mobility), and even this strategy has a cost that Lebron can typically exploit (Wade's movement when he's on the floor, shooters when he's not - though in this case they might prefer to play a bit more conservative. I give his slashing overall a +1.75, better than before, not quite 09/10 levels, and I don't want to over-credit him because the Heat/system spaced the floor so well this year, but he's gone back to being able to initiate the offense at the top and he's the best slasher in the game.

-Shooting is just a quantum leap forward. 13 and 14 are his best years no doubt on this front, his mechanics are just greatly improved. Mid-range game is better and because he's got his drive back he can A.) sell the drive and make space or B.) pullup ON the drive, but his ball-handling is also a bit better and he's better able to get to the spots he wants to off the dribble and just convert. 3 point shooting also drastically improved; he's not quite as good at pulling up as he was in 2010 (though its close, and he doesn't do it often so its not something to linger on too much) but he's absolutely insane spotting up, up top, in the corner, wherever (shot like 75% eFG% !!). So now he's immeasurably deadly off the ball, when he's not initiating up top or down low, he doesn't even need to be moving, he can just stand in the corner and draw defenders towards him and help open up the lane, because you don't want him to just knock it down at a 50% clip. Outside of just looking at the 3P%, this doesn't show up ANYWHERE in the box-score, and yet +/- will capture this, because the impact of spacing the floor is there, it makes the team offense more dynamic. This is the best shooting score of his career, +1.5.

-PnR and Playmaking. Better than prior seasons (but again I don't want to give him too much credit for the improved cast). Better at pulling up on the PnR, doesn't quite figure out how to play the load-up/wall in the paint perfectly until late in the SAS (though there were extreme circumstances IMO). I don't know that he's quite as great as 09/10, he's perhaps even smarter, but he's still not quite as good at collapsing defenses (though amongst the best in the league now). Clear jump over the first two Miami seasons though. +1.25

-Negligible improvement in transition (slightly better finishing, a bit more agile at weaving through defenders)

-Post-game is a bit better now. He's added the drop-step on the baseline now and can use it to get to the basket with ease, while also being able to knock down the shot he was using earlier. He's more dynamic in general, in increased quickness allows him to blowby certain defenders, while he hasn't yielded much strength with the weight shedding, so he can still overpower most guys that will be covering him down there. Doesn't use it quite as often though, but when he does its more deadly. Gave him the same rating for 2013, +0.5.

-Also a bit better off the ball, but a good amount of that credit comes from his ability to space the floor, which I've already credited him with in the shooting department. Otherwise he's a little smaller at moving without the ball, and more diverse due to his improved shooting ability. He's also starting to frequently seal guys off near the basket, combating fronts in the halfcourt and taking advantage of single coverage in semi-transition and transition, and this leads to quick and easy buckets. His off-ball game makes his offense highly portable, and adds to the diversity of lineups that can be played next to him. I'll shift him up a bit to +0.75.

Summary

Slashing +1.50
Shooting +1.50
PnR/Playmaking +1.25
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.5
Off-Ball +0.75

Overall +5.75. Better than 2009, clear cut best offensive player in the league, starting to get close to GOAT level offense territory again.

2014

-Offseason before 2014 he also sheds some more weight (not as drastic as before but noticeable). I see yet another improvement in his halfcourt explosiveness/quickness which ramps up his driving/slashing game again, the closest he's been to 09/10 since he left Cleveland and the best finishing season at his career (he's straight up at 80% now, which is inexplicably nuts). Slashing overall is up again, but by this point he's got so many tools at his disposal that he can't simply be doing it all at once. Still, got it up at +1.75 now.

-Shooting is about the same - his ability to pullup is perhaps even better, and he's reincorporated the 3 point pullup from 2010 (which diminishes his % relative to 2013 a bit, but he's just better from downtown now). Spotting up he's about the same, and he goes through a bit of a slump from midrange in the RS, though by the late season and playoffs, he's pretty much able to just rise up and hit from anywhere. Everything I spoke of from the previous season applies as well. +1.50 again.

-PnR/Playmaking, a little better on the PnR due to the improved basket pressure, and he's even smarter at manipulating matchups than before, not some massive leap but he's slightly better and closer to his Cleveland self.

-Post-game is improved, no two ways about it. He's quicker at recognizing and taking advantages of mismatches, he's more dynamic - he's comfortable with multiple options now, he can go middle and shoot, go middle and hook (though its not pretty), go middle and do that little flip shot, go baseline and shoot, go baseline and use his speed to get in, go baseline with the drop step and quickly go up for a basket - he's starting to use little head/pump fakes as well, got a little up-and-under move, footwork is more fluid and more polished, etc. etc. All these new options plus the added comfort of wanting to play in the post now also means his playmaking from down there sees an improvement and jump (hence the assist drop). Clear improvement over the previous season. However, we see this early RS and in the PS, but probably to avoid wear and tear, he avoids it for the middle of the season. Thus I don't give him a massive jump for this, just a bump up to +0.75.

-Off-ball same idea as above. 42% of his baskets are now assisted, he's frequently featured off the ball in Miaimi's system, screening for handlers and off the ball completely, moves around and has options from anywhere on the floor (curl in from either side, clear out to the corner, zipper up top to look for cutting action or initiate or pullup, etc.). Just like the post-game, this is a clear skill improvement that he can choose to turn on/off, and in the RS, he finds a good balance of creation with/without the ball. Up to +1.0 on this front now.

Summary

Slashing +1.75
Shooting +1.50
PnR/Playmaking +1.25
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.75
Off-Ball +1.0

Overall +6.5. By far best offensive player in the league, near GOAT offensive season (only a handful better IMO).

2015

This season is up and down.

-Slashing's a very tiny bit weaker IMO. Back and knee injuries to start the season but then comes back healthy after two weeks off and propels the Cavs to GOAT level play (his amazing defense has a lot to do with that as well). But he's also shed some weight and typically looks very quick on the drive, lacking a tad bit of lift on the finishes perhaps, but still much better than the early Miami seasons and IMO a tad bit above 2013 as well.

-Shooting is the major step down, I think he **** up his mechanics. Pretty poor from everywhere on the floor, can't space the floor with the three point shot anymore, can't punish defenses for leaving him open, defenders can give him more space to cover the drive, can't do much with the pullup, etc. It's a big blow. +0.75 on that end, worst of this pack easily.

-PnR/Playmaking is affected as well. While he retains most of his slashing ability and demonstrates that he can carry an offensive load like 09/10 to elite heights (+8 offense with Lebron in with RS+PS combined, +11 offense with Mozgov/Love/Irving IN). But still, talking about Lebron in a vacuum, the lack of shooting hurts here, mostly makes him less dynamic on the pick and roll. +1.25

-Post-game is about the same IMO. His counters are weaker, he's poor at hitting the turnaround jumpshots now due to the shooting, BUT he's a little more diverse at finishing and still has the speed/drop-step going baseline. In the playoffs we see him at times just turn to full-time low-post play, which we hadn't seen before, and we got closer to seeing the extent of his abilities and sustainability down there and it was rather impressive. It's a useful tool to maintain a high floor when a crucial fraction of the roster is absent due to injury. I've rated him the same. +0.75

-Off ball game is also hit by the shooting, and given the circumstances he has to trend away from it. He's still incredible at finding seams off the ball and knowing when and where to move, but the lack of a jumpshot hurts, he can't just pullup off a curl/screen anymore and he isn't nearly as valuable when he's standing in a corner; there's no need to give much defensive attention towards him. Fortunately he didn't spend a lot of time having to do that, as the Cavs needed him to be holding the reigns pretty much 99% of the time in the playoffs. A notch down from the previous high, +0.5.

Summary

Slashing +1.75
Shooting +0.75
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.75
Off-Ball +0.5

Overall +5.0.

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Comparisons

2012 significantly weaker slashing game, but he's beginning to add skills to expand his game. However those skills are not yet refined and aren't collectively creating a large enough impact to overcome 2015's offense. That offense is comprised of MUCH better slashing ability, and a more refined off-ball/post-game, though massive dropoff in shooting ability makes it rather close (2012 4.5, 2015 5.0).

The argument then would lie on the defensive end. 2012's is better, but is the gap large enough to overcome the offensive one? IMO no, its not. I think 2012's major advantage is stamina/motor/consistency and rebounding (which is about even in the playoffs). In terms of smarts and rotational quickness/discipline, I think I slightly prefer 2015; more experienced and has better lateral mobility due to the weight loss. 2012 is also probably stronger, and more equipped to last on longer possessions on quick switches/rotations onto big men, as well as being able to front the post. I rate 2015 as a +2.0 on defense, 2012 as a +2.5.

If you're keeping track, that's a +7.0 for 2012 and a +7.0 for 2015. I'll say this though, I prefer 2012 over 2015 due to stamina/health/durability AND portability (2012 better shooting, slightly better defense, similar off-ball games).

As for 2013, I've made the offensive case already. Defensively, I think 2012 is slightly better due to full season consistency and motor (13 Lebron was getting visibly gassed at times). But in the late RS and playoffs in 2013, Lebron IMO was at his defensive peak. The kind of activity I saw him sustain for certain long bursts, with such few mistakes, was unbelievable; you could visibly see him imposing his will on games (see the ECF and Finals) on that end and completely driving Miami's runs through his defensive energy. Overall I rate this season very slightly lower than 2012, +2.25 vs. +2.50, so overall at +8.0 still clearly ahead of 2012 +7.0

09/10 defense-wise, I like his rebounding, and I think his motor is at least as good as 2012, if not a bit better (less weight to carry around, manages larger loads on the offensive end while not letting up defensively). I also think these years are his best for transition defense (screws up fastbreaks with his shotblocking, and is highly disruptive towards upcoming offensive players). I don't think his rotations/discipline is as sound as it is later in Miami but on the other hand, he's quicker and probably a bit more focused in 1on1 situations (moreso 2009 than 2010). I rate both these seasons as +2.0, and this puts their overall ratings as higher than 2012 as well, despite the advantage 2012 has on the defensive end.

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Alright I'm going to stop now, this is getting excessive.

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EDIT: FWIW, this process^^ is essentially how I grade and rate players and it's how I've come up with the ballot I'm using for this project. Obviously I haven't gone into as much written detail for each guy (I can if anyone thinks I need to substantiate my positions more), but this is how I go about it in my mind. I wouldn't mind the actual numerical values much, they just offer a base of comparison; their relativity is more important than their inherent value.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#47 » by Quotatious » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:52 pm

Spoiler:
SideshowBob wrote:
Quotatious wrote:I agree. I really don't know why some people are so low on 2012 LeBron compared to 2009, 2010 and 2013. I mean - 2012 was the first season when he started to use his post game a lot, his defense was outstanding (he didn't coast, he played with good effort all the time). Playmaking was a bit worse than usual, but it certainly wasn't a dramatic difference. His 3-pt shot was really cold in the postseason, but he still shot 50% from the field, and was able to go to the foul line 10+ times per game (averaged 2.5 FTA more, compared to '13).

Also, his mental toughness and "killer instinct", "will to win" (yeah, I know I sound like Skip Bayless right now, lol) were at its peak that year, too. In the playoffs, I never felt like he was going to lose, even as a Celtics fan at that time.



mischievous wrote:Btw, i have 2012 as Lebron's peak but if i had to choose between 09 and 13 i would give a slight nod to 2009.


lol. I mean I thought I broke it down rather thoroughly in the posts earlier, but I guess not. I understand that everyone's got different criteria here, but I just don't get how you could have watched 2012 and 2013 (please feel free to explain :)) and gotten the impression that 2012 was better? Quotes, with regards to 2015 vs. 2012, IMO best case scenario for 2015 is they're tied, 2015 lacks the consistency/durability/stamina in the RS in comparison with 2012, and its debatable whether his better 2015 offense (I'll get into this below) can make up for it.

Now, let's get REALLY thorough (I wish we had easy access to full-game footage, even if just PS).

First, let's consider something. What makes Lebron, Lebron? Above all else? It is his drive-and-kick game. Make no mistake about it, this is the core of who Lebron is, exceptional first-step quickness/explosion to beat defenders off the dribble, get to the basket and finish at 70-80% (which is Shaq/Barkley-esque, except being able to do this from the perimeter is perhaps even more significant). As a result, defenses MUST collapse (smarter defenses make more drastic adjustments, which can succeed or backfire, case in point 2013 Spurs games 1/2/3/5/6 vs. 4/7), which leaves shooters open and creates seams for cutters, and Lebron, with his exceptional vision and physical passing ability, is able to find these guys for easy, high-percentage buckets, or those guys can dish out a hockey assist to an even better basket (which is still created by Lebron's penetration). This is where the bulk of his +/- or RAPM impact comes from, everything else (shooting ability, post-game, movement, etc.) is all secondary/tertiary, it is meant to complement/supplement this or to have additional options available (for both stamina and strategy). I understand that this seems like I'm pointing out the obvious here, but reiterating all of this makes it easier to make my next point.

2011 and 2012 Lebron don't quite have this ability! Or better yet, drastically lack it to the degree that the other versions I'm specifically championing (09/10/13/14/15) do. Let's say the hypothetical perfect offensive player is a +8. Lebron's offense in his top years is in the vicinity of +5-6.5, and no player ever has really gone too far beyond that range (Bird/Nash/Jordan/Magic). And let's say in 2009, at his slashing best, his drive-and-kick game makes up +2.75 of that 5-6.5. Here's how I would rate 09-15 relative to 2009.

2009 - 100
2010 - 98
2011 - 25
2012 - 35
2013 - 60
2014 - 80
2015 - 75

Before we move forward with this, my explanation as to why 2011 and 2012 are so far below the pack is his weight gain. There's already been an extensive thread and extensive discussion on his athletic/explosive/quickness dropoff in 2011 and 2012. He added mass, lost his quickness and upper body control and diminished as a slasher (unable to blow-by most defenders unless he got a switch on a particularly immobile big, not agile at high/quick speeds to wind through defenses, lacking the body control to be the level of finisher he once was). In 2012 he dropped a bit of weight, and there was a minor improvement but nothing dramatic. 2013 OTOH, he dropped a considerable amount of weight, and then shed a bit more in 2014 as well, to the point where he was a drastically more effective slasher in those years. HE CAN STILL LEAP OUT OF THE BUILDING THOUGH PLEASE LET'S NOT BRUSH THIS ALL OFF WITH HIGHLIGHTS OF LEBRON JUMPING OVER JOHN LUCAS III I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES MY ENTIRE ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN NULLIFIED WITH SILLY DUNKING HIGHLIGHT VIDEOS.

Again, I wish we had better available game footage, but at least pay close attention to the highlights (maybe I'll try to dig out some examples that make this clear). 2012 Lebron is not frequently creating baskets through slashing; he's gotten very smart at finding backdoor cuts, he's dabbling in the post a little more than before, and but his jumper, while solid, is inconsistent and not quite as good as it was in the three previous years or the two following ones.

This means that his bread-and-butter as described above, the drive-and-kick game is heavily diminished. Why should that matter you say? If he can still put up 27 and 6 assists on 61% TS and 30 and 5 assists on 58% TS against solid competition in the playoffs? Why should the method matter if he can still put up the production in other ways? Because those 27/6 and 30/5 are being produced on like 30 possessions, and Lebron plays 70-85 possessions a game (higher end in the playoffs), and the amount of impact he has on those leftover 40-55 possessions is greatly diminished when his primary offensive option is 35% as good as it once was.

That +2.75 from slashing has now become less than a +1. How would we rate out the rest of 09's offensive game?

2009

-Improved jumpshot over previous years following the Olympics. This changes the way defenders cover him, because while they have to give him space to cover the drive, they can't give him too much because now he's better at hitting them with some space. Plus he's also a solid 3-point shooter so he can space the floor a little bit and occasionally pullup from outside as well. Let's say his improved jumpshot adds +1.

-Playmaking and pick-and-roll play. He can run/operate an offense from the top like a PG. He can manipulate defensive rotations to create ideal matchups for his teammates with playcalling, run the PnR with the threat to drive, hit the roll man, hit the pop man, or pullup himself with his better jumper OR sell any one of these actions, force a missed rotation/over-commital by the defenders and find an open basket or three-pointer. Let's say this is a +1.50.

-Primitive post-game, decent off-ball game (doesn't get to showcase much given how much Cleveland relies on him to create) He's better at both in 2010, I'd say these sum to break-even.

-Transition game. Best fastbreak finisher in the league, can finish in either direction, go through, over, or blow by defenders, and is arguably one of the best at finding leading AND trailing teammates as well. Even cleans up the glass on the trail on occasion. Still, fastbreak possessions are hard to come by and even more rare in the postseason. Let's say this is an additional +0.25.

Summary

Slashing +2.75
Shooting +1.0
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.0

Overall +5.5. Best offensive player in the league in a season where Wade, Paul, Kobe are peaking

2010

I think he's like a quarter step slower, but all skills have been refined, I would go:

Slashing +2.75
Shooting +1.25
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.25

Overall +6.0. Best offensive player in the league (Nash has a monster year as well) and entering offensive GOAT territory

2011

-Major dropoff in athleticism. Halfcourt slashing game just isn't there anymore (he can get to the basket with an open lane though, though in semi-transition with a head of steam he can still barrel through and get to the basket (though his offensive foul rate shoots up this year) but he's not quite as good a finisher as before or later either (too much upper body mass, not enough body control/contortion ability to avoid/dodge defenders/deterrence). All this means that defenses aren't as worried about his basket pressure, they don't have to collapse unless he attacks, and he doesn't really attack, and there's not a lot of preventive measures anymore either (strong side overload, packing the paint, heavy shading, icing the PnR, etc.), and thus the teammates off the ball are just not getting the kind of looks that the other Lebron's would be able to provide them with his penetration. I've rated his slashing +0.50, 25% of his 09 peak.

-Shooting is pretty much improved across the board except for a couple issues. The 3 point shot isn't quite as good as 2010, where he was so deadly off the dribble and spotting up. He's also not quite as good at actually using his dribble to create them because A.) he no longer has the threat of the drive to force defenders to give space and B.) the added weight has also affected his coordination, which hampers his ball-handling a little bit, so he can't use the dribble as effectively to create separation. But everywhere else he's clearly better, his jumpshot anywhere from 10-23 feet is crazy deadly, in the 2011 calendar year he was shooting nearly 49% from that range and following the all-star break, ~55% (!!). Overall, I credit him +1.25 for shooting, accounting for both shifts.

-ITO playmaking and PnR play, the slashing dropoff has just made his overall creation game weaker. Now he's relegated to pretty much only relying on defenders over-committing, and/or taking advantage of his better midrange jumpshot on the pullup. He's still got his vision/passing ability, so you can bet when he sees a seam or opportunity for a teammate, he's going to capitalize, BUT the problem is he's no longer creating as many opportunities (Elgee actually used to track this, perhaps he still does). I rate this a +1.00.

-Transition game is interesting. On one hand, he's got better teammates to dish it to in Wade/Bosh (though Varejao, Hickson, etc. were solid finishers in their own right). On the other hand, he's not quite as good a finisher at the basket, although when he's got that head of steam, he's still pretty much unstoppable. I'd still rate him at +0.25 for transition offense, he's still probably the amongst the deadliest open-court players in the league.

-Post-game is weaker than 2010, when he had begun playmaking in the low-post (or draw fouls) and used the mid-post face-up game as he was able to use a quick explosive step to get to the basket. Off-ball game is slightly better later in the season, when he learns to take advantage of the attention Wade/Bosh can receive in their own two-man game or even just on Wade drives, and starts to find quick and easy cuts to the basket. I rate this about the same as 2010, gain in one area, loss in the other. +0.25

Summary

Slashing +0.50
Shooting +1.25
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post/Off-Ball +0.25

Overall +3.25

Major dropoff (and one of the weaker offensive seasons of his career, IMO even 06 and 08 are better). Notice how much he relies on easy/opportunistic buckets, and his self-creation is limited to shooting. THIS is the biggest reason for his major dip in scoring in the postseason. Luckily he was near his defensive peak. Also, just to be clear, this is still an elite offensive player, heck you start seeing all-star selections at the +2.0 threshold overall, and Lebron's +3.25 on just offense. What it isn't is best in the league type of offense (In 2011 Wade, Dirk, Paul, Nash are absolutely better, Durant, Kobe are probably better, and guys like Rose and Westbrook are not far below him).

2012

-The good: he's shed some weight, and isn't quite as inadequate as before AND he's also started to refine/add to his skillset in order to try to combat the athletic dropoff. The bad: that weight gain isn't enough, and his new skills aren't quite polished yet.

-Slashing, slightly better than 2011 but still pretty lacking. I still see him as incapable of consistently breaking defenders down off the dribble, and very rarely do we see blowbys (though unlike 2011, we at least see them). Again, with a head of steam from full or halfcourt (in semi-transition OR when he brings the ball up himself) he can manage to blow through defenders and get to the basket, but from a standstill in the halfcourt? Almost no chance, he's more likely going to just try and run PnR or isolate and jack up a jumpshot. Still very little drive-and-kick and again, this means fewer open shots created by him at large volume. He's a little quicker/better than 2011, he's smart enough to get advantageous switches on the PnR to draw bigs that he can occasionally drive by, but its nowhere near the same as what we're about to see in the next season. I give his slashing game a +0.75 for this year.

-Shooting is interesting. He starts off hot for the first few weeks, then if I recall correctly, injures his hand and doesn't quite look the same again for the rest of the season (and really struggles in the playoffs). He starts the season not shooting much at all, particularly 3 pointers, which I wasn't a fan of (a lot of those 3s just got replaced by long 2s instead), and then spends the rest of the season being really selective with his 3 point shooting, preferring to take wide open ones and often passing up those that would hurt his %. Typical intuition says that this is smart, but the problem is that he's often passing these up late in the shot clock for worse shots for his teammates, rather than simply dishing it to a better shot; in those cases I'd rather he just take them. This makes his % look rather nice, but he couldn't continue doing this in the postseason and it showed in the numbers. Mid-range shooting itself sees a similar struggle especially the long 2s, but he does improve his actual on-ball shot creation ability, incorporating rocker-steps, jabs, fakes, etc. to throw off defenders and buy himself some space. However, impressively, his inner midrange game (5-15 feet) thrives, and I'll get to this a little more when discussing the post-game. Overall though, I dock him from 2011 for his shooting, and the close-range shooting points will be awarded in the post-category. +1.00

-PnR/Playmaking. I don't see much change from 2011. Slightly better at taking advantage of seams created on the PnR because he's a little bit quicker than the year before, but his jumpshot is worse when trying to pullup. +1.00

-I've separated post-game and off-ball game now, as he's made decent strides in both. Lets talk post first. So, as Quotatious said, this is the first year he really starts utilizing this. That's a key statement because A.) it means he's not quite that great at yet it but also B.) it adds a completely new avenue in his game (new tool against defenses and a whole new way to playmake). So yeah he starts using this now, he's really good at getting good and ideal positioning for himself because of his lower-body strength, and that also allows him to work against stronger defenders when he's down there, which means he can now very effectively be played at the PF. Of course we later see teams adjust to this positional change in the following seasons but in 2012, teams weren't quite ready for this. His game is relatively limited though, power-down weaker/smaller defenders and get inside and finish, tries the jump-hook but isn't consistent with it and doesn't use it game-to-game, loves the counter (the jumper over the right-shoulder) so much that it practically becomes his go-to option in the playoffs (and he's awesome at it, shot like 47-48% for the year from the 10-15 ft range) as he gets SO much elevation on the jumpshot. Kind of a problem though, because he just doesn't really go middle (though he's also got a nice little floater for secondary rotating bigs), and doesn't have the drop-step of later years when going baseline to be able to get right to the rim. He hasn't begun to gobble up attention yet, but he's still exceptional at recognizing when defenders will turn their attention to him (often from the weak side corner) and finds open shooters on reversal AND finds guys in position to pass it to an open[er] man (hockey-assist). This is a dynamic and important addition to the toolbox and one that would develop and thrive later on. +0.5

-Off-ball game is also blooming. He's gotten comfortable and frequent with the backdoor cuts and is better at just moving, which, given his threat to finish (much easier to get to the basket off the ball than on it), can throw defenses into complete distortion. He's also starting to actively set screens, be the roll/pop man on the PnR (mostly with Wade - which is impossible to defend - but also a bit with Chalmers), and this is also the season where he was a presence on the offensive glass. This gets a +0.75.

-Transition is again about the same. Honestly it's probably been roughly the same year-in-year-out, he's pretty consistent on this front. +0.25

Summary

Slashing +0.75
Shooting +1.00
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.5
Off-Ball +0.75


Overall +4.5. Elite offensive player, best in the league level (Durant and Paul are rather impressive as well this season). Note that his assists are down due to A.) cut in slashing, B.) more frequent post-play so more hockey assists and C.) more off-ball play so less time spent playmaking from the perimeter.

Now let's get to the meat here, 13-15. From 2011 -> 2015, Lebron sheds weight in every single offseason. The most visibly obvious change came during the 2012 Olympics, 2 months after winning his first title, Lebron looked noticeably slimmer in the USA training camp. Once the games began, the effect was obvious, we saw him moving around with quickness, fluidity and agility that we hadn't seen in over 2 years, as well as making some highlight worthy athletic plays. Small sample though, so I wanted to see what would hold up once the real season rolled along and the results were stellar. While not quite 09 WTF levels of explosive, this was a considerable leap over 2011 and 2012; almost instantly, his entire game became centered around slashing again, and the effects of this on the team performance were pretty obvious. But what would come later as the season rolled along I really did not expect; Lebron had become better at literally every other thing on the offensive end as well.

2013

-Slashing. Not quite his 09 peak, but not far off either (I gave it a 60 above). He's now essentially able to blow by 90% of defenders given he's faced with single coverage and average middle rotation, but somehow, he's managed to become an even better finisher (now finishing in the high 70s AND draining things around the basket as well in the 3-10 ft area). He's finding shooters left and right, especially against weaker teams that can only adjust to his insane finishing ability by collapsing, which means the plethora of shooters are just almost gonna be open. Smarter and better equipped teams start to build a wall inside (at a cost, you have to cheat somewhere, but well disciplined teams have the defenders trained to be able to recover quickly or to have other guys pick up the slack via positioning/mobility), and even this strategy has a cost that Lebron can typically exploit (Wade's movement when he's on the floor, shooters when he's not - though in this case they might prefer to play a bit more conservative. I give his slashing overall a +1.75, better than before, not quite 09/10 levels, and I don't want to over-credit him because the Heat/system spaced the floor so well this year, but he's gone back to being able to initiate the offense at the top and he's the best slasher in the game.

-Shooting is just a quantum leap forward. 13 and 14 are his best years no doubt on this front, his mechanics are just greatly improved. Mid-range game is better and because he's got his drive back he can A.) sell the drive and make space or B.) pullup ON the drive, but his ball-handling is also a bit better and he's better able to get to the spots he wants to off the dribble and just convert. 3 point shooting also drastically improved; he's not quite as good at pulling up as he was in 2010 (though its close, and he doesn't do it often so its not something to linger on too much) but he's absolutely insane spotting up, up top, in the corner, wherever (shot like 75% eFG% !!). So now he's immeasurably deadly off the ball, when he's not initiating up top or down low, he doesn't even need to be moving, he can just stand in the corner and draw defenders towards him and help open up the lane, because you don't want him to just knock it down at a 50% clip. Outside of just looking at the 3P%, this doesn't show up ANYWHERE in the box-score, and yet +/- will capture this, because the impact of spacing the floor is there, it makes the team offense more dynamic. This is the best shooting score of his career, +1.5.

-PnR and Playmaking. Better than prior seasons (but again I don't want to give him too much credit for the improved cast). Better at pulling up on the PnR, doesn't quite figure out how to play the load-up/wall in the paint perfectly until late in the SAS (though there were extreme circumstances IMO). I don't know that he's quite as great as 09/10, he's perhaps even smarter, but he's still not quite as good at collapsing defenses (though amongst the best in the league now). Clear jump over the first two Miami seasons though. +1.25

-Negligible improvement in transition (slightly better finishing, a bit more agile at weaving through defenders)

-Post-game is a bit better now. He's added the drop-step on the baseline now and can use it to get to the basket with ease, while also being able to knock down the shot he was using earlier. He's more dynamic in general, in increased quickness allows him to blowby certain defenders, while he hasn't yielded much strength with the weight shedding, so he can still overpower most guys that will be covering him down there. Doesn't use it quite as often though, but when he does its more deadly. Gave him the same rating for 2013, +0.5.

-Also a bit better off the ball, but a good amount of that credit comes from his ability to space the floor, which I've already credited him with in the shooting department. Otherwise he's a little smaller at moving without the ball, and more diverse due to his improved shooting ability. He's also starting to frequently seal guys off near the basket, combating fronts in the halfcourt and taking advantage of single coverage in semi-transition and transition, and this leads to quick and easy buckets. His off-ball game makes his offense highly portable, and adds to the diversity of lineups that can be played next to him. I'll shift him up a bit to +0.75.

Summary

Slashing +1.50
Shooting +1.50
PnR/Playmaking +1.25
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.5
Off-Ball +0.75

Overall +5.75. Better than 2009, clear cut best offensive player in the league, starting to get close to GOAT level offense territory again.

2014

-Offseason before 2014 he also sheds some more weight (not as drastic as before but noticeable). I see yet another improvement in his halfcourt explosiveness/quickness which ramps up his driving/slashing game again, the closest he's been to 09/10 since he left Cleveland and the best finishing season at his career (he's straight up at 80% now, which is inexplicably nuts). Slashing overall is up again, but by this point he's got so many tools at his disposal that he can't simply be doing it all at once. Still, got it up at +1.75 now.

-Shooting is about the same - his ability to pullup is perhaps even better, and he's reincorporated the 3 point pullup from 2010 (which diminishes his % relative to 2013 a bit, but he's just better from downtown now). Spotting up he's about the same, and he goes through a bit of a slump from midrange in the RS, though by the late season and playoffs, he's pretty much able to just rise up and hit from anywhere. Everything I spoke of from the previous season applies as well. +1.50 again.

-PnR/Playmaking, a little better on the PnR due to the improved basket pressure, and he's even smarter at manipulating matchups than before, not some massive leap but he's slightly better and closer to his Cleveland self.

-Post-game is improved, no two ways about it. He's quicker at recognizing and taking advantages of mismatches, he's more dynamic - he's comfortable with multiple options now, he can go middle and shoot, go middle and hook (though its not pretty), go middle and do that little flip shot, go baseline and shoot, go baseline and use his speed to get in, go baseline with the drop step and quickly go up for a basket - he's starting to use little head/pump fakes as well, got a little up-and-under move, footwork is more fluid and more polished, etc. etc. All these new options plus the added comfort of wanting to play in the post now also means his playmaking from down there sees an improvement and jump (hence the assist drop). Clear improvement over the previous season. However, we see this early RS and in the PS, but probably to avoid wear and tear, he avoids it for the middle of the season. Thus I don't give him a massive jump for this, just a bump up to +0.75.

-Off-ball same idea as above. 42% of his baskets are now assisted, he's frequently featured off the ball in Miaimi's system, screening for handlers and off the ball completely, moves around and has options from anywhere on the floor (curl in from either side, clear out to the corner, zipper up top to look for cutting action or initiate or pullup, etc.). Just like the post-game, this is a clear skill improvement that he can choose to turn on/off, and in the RS, he finds a good balance of creation with/without the ball. Up to +1.0 on this front now.

Summary

Slashing +1.75
Shooting +1.50
PnR/Playmaking +1.25
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.75
Off-Ball +1.0

Overall +6.5. By far best offensive player in the league, near GOAT offensive season (only a handful better IMO).

2015

This season is up and down.

-Slashing's a very tiny bit weaker IMO. Back and knee injuries to start the season but then comes back healthy after two weeks off and propels the Cavs to GOAT level play (his amazing defense has a lot to do with that as well). But he's also shed some weight and typically looks very quick on the drive, lacking a tad bit of lift on the finishes perhaps, but still much better than the early Miami seasons and IMO a tad bit above 2013 as well.

-Shooting is the major step down, I think he **** up his mechanics. Pretty poor from everywhere on the floor, can't space the floor with the three point shot anymore, can't punish defenses for leaving him open, defenders can give him more space to cover the drive, can't do much with the pullup, etc. It's a big blow. +0.75 on that end, worst of this pack easily.

-PnR/Playmaking is affected as well. While he retains most of his slashing ability and demonstrates that he can carry an offensive load like 09/10 to elite heights (+8 offense with Lebron in with RS+PS combined, +11 offense with Mozgov/Love/Irving IN). But still, talking about Lebron in a vacuum, the lack of shooting hurts here, mostly makes him less dynamic on the pick and roll. +1.25

-Post-game is about the same IMO. His counters are weaker, he's poor at hitting the turnaround jumpshots now due to the shooting, BUT he's a little more diverse at finishing and still has the speed/drop-step going baseline. In the playoffs we see him at times just turn to full-time low-post play, which we hadn't seen before, and we got closer to seeing the extent of his abilities and sustainability down there and it was rather impressive. It's a useful tool to maintain a high floor when a crucial fraction of the roster is absent due to injury. I've rated him the same. +0.75

-Off ball game is also hit by the shooting, and given the circumstances he has to trend away from it. He's still incredible at finding seams off the ball and knowing when and where to move, but the lack of a jumpshot hurts, he can't just pullup off a curl/screen anymore and he isn't nearly as valuable when he's standing in a corner; there's no need to give much defensive attention towards him. Fortunately he didn't spend a lot of time having to do that, as the Cavs needed him to be holding the reigns pretty much 99% of the time in the playoffs. A notch down from the previous high, +0.5.

Summary

Slashing +1.75
Shooting +0.75
PnR/Playmaking +1.00
Transition +0.25
Post-game +0.75
Off-Ball +0.5

Overall +5.0.

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Comparisons

2012 significantly weaker slashing game, but he's beginning to add skills to expand his game. However those skills are not yet refined and aren't collectively creating a large enough impact to overcome 2015's offense. That offense is comprised of MUCH better slashing ability, and a more refined off-ball/post-game, though massive dropoff in shooting ability makes it rather close (2012 4.5, 2015 5.0).

The argument then would lie on the defensive end. 2012's is better, but is the gap large enough to overcome the offensive one? IMO no, its not. I think 2012's major advantage is stamina/motor/consistency and rebounding (which is about even in the playoffs). In terms of smarts and rotational quickness/discipline, I think I slightly prefer 2015; more experienced and has better lateral mobility due to the weight loss. 2012 is also probably stronger, and more equipped to last on longer possessions on quick switches/rotations onto big men, as well as being able to front the post. I rate 2015 as a +2.0 on defense, 2012 as a +2.5.

If you're keeping track, that's a +7.0 for 2012 and a +7.0 for 2015. I'll say this though, I prefer 2012 over 2015 due to stamina/health/durability AND portability (2012 better shooting, slightly better defense, similar off-ball games).

As for 2013, I've made the offensive case already. Defensively, I think 2012 is slightly better due to full season consistency and motor (13 Lebron was getting visibly gassed at times). But in the late RS and playoffs in 2013, Lebron IMO was at his defensive peak. The kind of activity I saw him sustain for certain long bursts, with such few mistakes, was unbelievable; you could visibly see him imposing his will on games (see the ECF and Finals) on that end and completely driving Miami's runs through his defensive energy. Overall I rate this season very slightly lower than 2012, +2.25 vs. +2.50, so overall at +8.0 still clearly ahead of 2012 +7.0

09/10 defense-wise, I like his rebounding, and I think his motor is at least as good as 2012, if not a bit better (less weight to carry around, manages larger loads on the offensive end while not letting up defensively). I also think these years are his best for transition defense (screws up fastbreaks with his shotblocking, and is highly disruptive towards upcoming offensive players). I don't think his rotations/discipline is as sound as it is later in Miami but on the other hand, he's quicker and probably a bit more focused in 1on1 situations (moreso 2009 than 2010). I rate both these seasons as +2.0, and this puts their overall ratings as higher than 2012 as well, despite the advantage 2012 has on the defensive end.

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Alright I'm going to stop now, this is getting excessive.

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EDIT: FWIW, this process^^ is essentially how I grade and rate players and it's how I've come up with the ballot I'm using for this project. Obviously I haven't gone into as much written detail for each guy (I can if anyone thinks I need to substantiate my positions more), but this is how I go about it in my mind. I wouldn't mind the actual numerical values much, they just offer a base of comparison; their relativity is more important than their inherent value.

:o :o One of the best posts I've ever seen on RealGM. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll change my mind about '12 LeBron, but there's some fantastic analysis here. I hope it'll get a lot more And 1's than just the one from me.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#48 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:43 pm

So what about Kareem?
I think his 5 best years are:
1971, 1972, 1974, 1977 and 1980
1980 Kareem was amazing offensively (just as good as the other seasons I mentioned) but I think his rebounding and defense decline a little bit. I think this would be the last season of my top 5.
After that, I have a problem. 1971 is combination of amazing RS and team success, but to be fair, his playoffs numbers aren't super-impressive. He played great vs Bullets in the finals and his performed the best in his career vs Nate in the playoffs. One thing is a big minus for me - many sources claimed that he was outplayed by Wilt in playoffs. While this would be exaggeration, their numbers are comparable and reading game-by-game recaps it seems that Wilt really outplayed Kareem. Keep in mind that Wilt was clearly past his prime that year, so I think this is a big knock on a GOAT peak.

Chamberlain: 22.0 ppg, 18.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 48.9 %FG/42.9 %FT/47.1 %TS
Abdul-Jabbar: 25.0 ppg, 17.4 rpg, 4.2 apg on 48.1 %FG/63.6 %FT/51.0 %TS

1972 year is GOAT RS by any player in my opinion. He killed anybody that year, was even more dominant than Shaq or Wilt in my opinion. This time his playoffs performance also hurts him a bit. Poor performance vs Warriors and not great vs Lakers.

1974 is the least impressive RS from 1971-1974 span in my opinion. But, his playoff run is amazing.
1977 playoff run is even better than 1974, but RS is not as good. Also, I think Kareem (while still great defender) clearly declined as a defender compared to Milwaukee years. It was mainly because of worse mobility and activeness.

What do you think?
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#49 » by mischievous » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:08 am

SideshowBob wrote:
Comparisons

2012 significantly weaker slashing game, but he's beginning to add skills to expand his game. However those skills are not yet refined and aren't collectively creating a large enough impact to overcome 2015's offense. That offense is comprised of MUCH better slashing ability, and a more refined off-ball/post-game, though massive dropoff in shooting ability makes it rather close (2012 4.5, 2015 5.0).

The argument then would lie on the defensive end. 2012's is better, but is the gap large enough to overcome the offensive one? IMO no, its not. I think 2012's major advantage is stamina/motor/consistency and rebounding (which is about even in the playoffs). In terms of smarts and rotational quickness/discipline, I think I slightly prefer 2015; more experienced and has better lateral mobility due to the weight loss. 2012 is also probably stronger, and more equipped to last on longer possessions on quick switches/rotations onto big men, as well as being able to front the post. I rate 2015 as a +2.0 on defense, 2012 as a +2.5.

If you're keeping track, that's a +7.0 for 2012 and a +7.0 for 2015. I'll say this though, I prefer 2012 over 2015 due to stamina/health/durability AND portability (2012 better shooting, slightly better defense, similar off-ball games).




Although i appreciate the time you took to break all this down, i still have to respectfully disagree on 2012 vs 2015. You say Lebron's slashing in 2015 is better, that i disagree with and even if it were true, has it led to better offensive production or results? I'd say no, at the end of the day he still was less efficient and more turnover prone, Lebron struggled mightily with his scoring efficiency in the playoffs partly due to his jumper disappearing, and partly because he couldn't finish at the rim the way he did in 2012.

I have my doubts that 2015 Lebron would've delivered the big scoring performances like he did in the 2012 playoffs, game 4 against Indiana 40 points on 58.8 ts%, game 6 against Boston 45 on 75 ts%. In those playoffs there were games were he needed to put up high volume, high efficiency scoring games in order to win, i don't think playoff 2015 Lebron really had that capability. Nor do i think he could've guarded KD in the finals and put up great offensive numbers at the same time. I also consider that Lebron started the season off pretty sluggish and had to miss games due to either injury or conditioning reasons, whatever. These things matter for me. And then once you throw in the stamina, defense, motor and all that like you said, it becomes an easy choice for me.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#50 » by SideshowBob » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:27 am

mischievous wrote:Although i appreciate the time you took to break all this down, i still have to respectfully disagree on 2012 vs 2015.You say Lebron's slashing in 2015 is better, that i disagree with and even if it were true, has it led to better offensive production or results?


Yes and Yes.

Firstly, as I mentioned, we have to go a bit beyond basic production, because scoring volume and efficiency are still only explaining a fraction of the impact that a player such as Lebron can have on offense.

SideshowBob wrote:This means that his bread-and-butter as described above, the drive-and-kick game is heavily diminished. Why should that matter you say? If he can still put up 27 and 6 assists on 61% TS and 30 and 5 assists on 58% TS against solid competition in the playoffs? Why should the method matter if he can still put up the production in other ways? Because those 27/6 and 30/5 are being produced on like 30 possessions, and Lebron plays 70-85 possessions a game (higher end in the playoffs), and the amount of impact he has on those leftover 40-55 possessions is greatly diminished when his primary offensive option is 35% as good as it once was.


My assertion is that 2015 Lebron's better slashing (and other improved skills, jumpshooting aside) are that much better than 2012 that defenses are actually playing him differently (pack the paint, overload strong side, ice PnR, shade him with a big in the paint, primary defender drops under the screen to be in position to deny penetration), and that the result of this is open/easy looks for his teammates, because all of those listed adjustments mean that at least one defender is considerably off his man any time Lebron's controlling the ball. These aren't simple double teams when he tries to score, the entire defense is aligned to give him attention, and they're willing to live with other guys making shots.

The results absolutely bear this out. Quite simply, Cleveland was a better offensive team than 2012 Miami, they ran a 114.2 ORTG in Lebron's 69 games (+8.5 adjusted for schedule, which is historic), with the Big 3 playing (60 G), they ran a 115.0 ORTG (+9.3, which would be the best mark in history for a full season), with Mozgov in as well (33 G), they were at a 116.6 ORTG (+11, completely unprecedented). The playoff performance is a bit tougher to gauge, but considering Love missed 16.5 games (lose 3 pt spacing, offensive rebounding, low-post play, and some isolation offense) and Kyrie missed 7 full and 2 half games (lose some playmaking, considerable PnR/slashing play, spacing, and isolation offense), Cleveland still managed to put up a +5.5 offense despite facing the #1, #6, #11, and #12 defenses in the league (107.4 ORTG).

Guess how Miami performed in the 2012 postseason? 109.6 ORTG (+8ish), with Bosh missing ~9 games. At no point did they show any sign of hitting the heights that Cleveland displayed last year.


They both managed roughly a -4 defense in the playoffs (101.6 vs. 103.1, though Cleveland faced better offensive teams). Again, Lebron powered the 2015 Cavs on that end as well (lots of activity, career best rebounding, sliding the nail into the middle, switching onto bigs which allows Tristan to show/blitz and effectively allowing them to shut down the PnR, etc.).


I'd say no, at the end of the day he still was less efficient and more turnover prone, Lebron struggled mightily with his scoring efficiency in the playoffs partly due to his jumper disappearing.


He was less efficient and more turnover prone because he was essentially initiating ~60-70% of the plays. He brought the ball up, he attacked, or he positioned himself in the post to create - how frequently was anyone else able to create shots for themselves? Love for 3.5 games? Kyrie sure, but the tougher the competition got, the less and less he was healthy or available. The rest? You can count on one hand how often the rest of the cast created shots for themselves per game, especially by the time we saw the Finals.

Remarking that he was inefficient and turnover prone is kind of missing the forest for the trees. Lebron absorbs the teams leftover bad shots and turnovers by taking on such massive usage. Cavs played 1592 possessions with Lebron on the floor in the playoffs, or 79.6 per game. Lebron had 31 TSA per game, and 8.4 assists. So just between those two he was directly involved with 39.4 out of the 79.6. Low-post play also tends to increase hockey assists (draw the double from the opposite baseline and kick out to the nearest guy to move the ball to the opening from that double); NBA.com lists him as having 1 FT assist per game (which adjusts to 0.44 possessions), and 1.1 secondary/hockey assists per game, so now we're up to 41. They also list him as having created 15.2 assist opportunities per game, so we can subtract the initial 8.4 to determine that he also created 6.8 opportunities for shots that his teammates could not convert on. We're now up to 47.8 possessions out of 79.6. Finally we need to add in his 4.1 TOs per game, so the total number of plays Lebron has direct (primary and secondary) control in is 51.9 out of 79.6, 65.2% when he's on the floor (TSA/TO/AST account for 54.6%). 35% of the plays are others doing the creation, and none of this accounts for his time without Kyrie/Love, which would just further amplify these figures.

I can run the same math for 2012 Lebron in the playoffs, the problem is we don't have the secondary assist/FT assist data. Still, let's do our best. 78.4 possessions per game with Lebron on the floor. His TSA, assists and TO's account for 35.4 possessions (as opposed to 43.5 in 2015, and we know his playmaking rate is higher in 2015 so its unlikely the hockey assists and assist opportunities make up the same fraction). This is 45.2% as opposed to 2015's ~55%, and we're probably looking at an additional 5 or 6 from the missing data so at best probably around 50% control.

Now, consider 65% vs. 50% or 55% vs. 45%. What does this mean? For 2015, it means less time on the ball for less adequate players, which means they don't have to utilize their weaker creation abilities as much and will A.) be spoon-fed better shots on average and B.) frequently be in position to just score, thus won't have the opportunity to turn it over. However, this will artificially deflate Lebron's shooting numbers and inflate his turnover numbers(look at all that passing he's doing, his AST:TO ratio is unsurprisingly better in 2015, 2.1 vs. 1.6), because there are no "easy" shots left over for him, he's left with the end of the shot clock stuff, the well defended sets where an easy bucket wasn't available for those other guys, and he has to create a tough shot or force a drive into the teeth of the defense.

Getting back to the missing the forest for the trees comment - look at Miami and Cleveland's team turnover rates for the 12/15 playoffs.

Cleveland - 12.0%
Miami - 12.8%

Guess what happened to Cleveland's TO rate when Love was out? It dipped to 10.7%! as Lebron gained more control, and stayed that way when Kyrie started missing games as well. It's counter-intuitive on the surface, because what we see is a negative stat increasing, but that's why they just aren't painting a full picture. Lebron's absorbing the teams poor shots and turnovers was actually beneficial to the team in the postseason, but it came at the expense of cleaner/efficient stats.

Also, quick remark on the jumper - it wasn't much better in the 2012 playoffs. Game 6 against Boston stands out but he shot pretty poorly from outside 15 feet in that run as well, just not as bad as this year.

and partly because he couldn't finish at the rim the way he did in 2012.


Well, not exactly (77% in 2012, 70% in 2015 on higher volme - 8.3 vs. 7.1).

A.) The way he was defended in 2012 and 2015 are different, and that accounts for much of the difference, but also B.) his scoring creation toolset application was different in the two years (2012 more fastbreak, more easy cuts off the ball, 2015 centered around slashing and low-post game).

Let's dive into A first, the defensive schemes (which I've talked about before, so I'll try to keep it brief).

2012 Lebron lacks the slashing game of 2015 Lebron. Thus, teams are more willing to play him single coverage and rely on sound 1on1 play to contain his penetration (which tends to appear when he gets a switch with an immobile big or a slower/older defender that he can blowby), they're also nearly equally concerned about Wade and Bosh; Wade with his constant movement/cutting/curling action, and arguably superior slashing ability and Bosh with his ability to space the floor out to 20-22 feet on any possession as well as the roll man on the PnR and occasional post-ups. It would not be smart for teams to break from this single coverage frequently to stop Lebron's penetration because Lebron's not good enough of a slasher to demand it and those other guys are quite deadly themselves if left open; the opportunity cost is too high.

2015 Lebron on the other hand, is the 2nd best basket attacker in the game off the dribble (I'm looking at you Westbrook), and the best finisher when he gets there (post the two-week break he's shooting 76% at the rim on higher volume than any Miami year). Defenses, particularly those with a lot of good defenders, DO NOT want to cede Lebron drives in single coverage at all, the EV on those is insane, either he gets in and finishes at 75% or defenders rotate late or collapse and leave a guy open on the perimeter for an open three. They do not want that, they'll much rather live with not allowing him into the paint at all, hence the above mentioned pack the paint, overload strong side, ice PnR, shade him with a big in the paint, primary defender drops under the screen to be in position to deny penetration. Given his jumpshooting woes in 2015, this strategy could at least be somewhat effective. THIS is cause #1 for his diminished finishing % in the playoffs. As I said above, Lebron was often put into situations where the only remaining option was to drive into the packed paint, through the defenders and hope for a finish with multiple coverage on him - and this is obviously going to screw up his finishing numbers. It would be one thing if there were other options, but the problem is, given Cleveland's missing players/injuries, this was frequently the BEST option. The other option/explanation of course is the post-game, its reliable and effective but its slow and ugly, and again, with the kind of spacing that Cleveland was left with after the injuries, it was never going to be a high-ceiling option, it was about maintaining a consistent floor - always having something to go to, that could solidly yield like ~.90 points per possession.

This also begins to explain the FT disparity; if Lebron blows by a guy in single coverage (2012), he's more likely to be fouled by that guy. When he's driving into a packed paint or a sharp/quick rotation into the lane by a big after a blowby, he's more likely to try and avoid contact and hope for a finish on a weaker shot. Guess what else that means? His 2012 finishing % will be padded, more FTA means fewer missed shots counted as missed shots (missed FGA that leads to FTA never gets recorded).

Getting back to 2012, again he was facing single coverage frequently and there was certainly less concern about his drives than there was in 2015 (we can popcorn the Boston series if peeps are up to it, I think there's a lot to learn in seeing how they chose to divide attention between Lebron/Wade/Bosh when he returned). But ALSO, that team was creating a lot more A.) fast-break possessions and B.) opportunities for Lebron off the ball, because they had a great secondary ball-handler/shot-creator in Wade and far more ball-hawks playing the passing lanes in Wade/James/Chalmers/Battier, etc. as opposed to just James in Cleveland.

NBA.com tells me that Lebron scored 17.2% of his points on the fast-break in 2012 as opposed to 12% in 2015. Those are easy ~90%ish buckets, a 5% gap here could mean a 1-2% gap in his overall finishing rate, the difference between 70 and 72%.

With regards to off-ball play, its rather easy to explain, Miami simply had more guys that could initiate the offense and thus allow Lebron to hunt for easy backdoor cuts/seams, whereas as I demonstrated above, Cleveland was relying entirely on Lebron for initiating the offense and again with the injuries, he had neither the time nor the personnel to be able to even play off the ball.

In the 2012 playoffs, 39.7% of his baskets at the rim were assisted. In 2015, 25.1% of his baskets at the rim were assisted. It's pretty straightforward.

At this point, I don't know how one could look at the 70 vs. 77% and not recognize that the difference can be rather justifiably explained by what I've listed above. I think as soon as you take an in-depth look this stuff starts to become clear.

I have my doubts that 2015 Lebron would've delivered the big scoring performances like he did in the 2012 playoffs, game 4 against Indiana 40 points on 58.8 ts%, game 6 against Boston 45 on 75 ts%. In those playoffs there were games were he needed to put up high volume, high efficiency scoring games in order to win, i don't think playoff 2015 Lebron really had that capability. Nor do i think he could've guarded KD in the finals and put up great offensive numbers at the same time. I also consider that Lebron started the season off pretty sluggish and had to miss games due to either injury or conditioning reasons, whatever. These things matter for me. And then once you throw in the stamina, defense, motor and all that like you said, it becomes an easy choice for me.


And I respectfully disagree :) . But let me offer a little more cerebral stance.

As I've tried to illustrated above, I think there are clear differences in the way 2012 and 2015 were defended. IMO, if we were to plant 2015 on the 2012 Heat, the opposing defenses would HAVE to adjust, they would play him similarly to how the 2015 defenses did, only now Lebron's got a pretty solid version of Wade and Bosh as well for 14.5 games. When defenses try all those funky strategies I listed, it'll be easier to make them pay, and we'd see Lebron making skip passes to the corners and finding Wade on the curl all day long. If 2015 Lebron was on the 2012 Heat and defenses adjusted, Wade would have had a much stronger series vs. Boston. In 2012 he drew similar attention from us as Lebron did, and that would simply not be the case with 15 Lebron on the same team. If they DID decide to still give Wade a significant amount of attention and not adjust, then 2015 Lebron is now getting MUCH easier baskets than he did with Cleveland; he'll be able to break down/blowby defenders in single coverage, demonstrate his superior off-ball skills and get easy buckets, and make use of his superior post-scoring/creation skills. Once that is demonstrated, they WILL adjust, because it would be least bad thing they could do.

You say you doubt 2015 Lebron would have delivered the big scoring performances he did. I say I think he can - his scoring skillset is more diverse now, but more importantly, I say that 2015 Lebron's offensive abilities would put the 2012 Heat in a position in which they wouldn't even have needed those big scoring performances, because the overall team offense would have thrived more.

With regards to Lebron's missed time earlier in the year, I won't argue with you there. Everyone's got different criteria, so that's cool.

With regards to the stamina/motor stuff, I agree generally speaking, but I also can't help but remark that watching the kind of two-way load he was carrying in the ECF and Finals that when it was go-time, these things didn't really seem to be an issue. I mean he was sustaining 45.7 MPG in the Finals.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#51 » by SideshowBob » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:39 am

Already voted 93 for Hakeem, and this was my broad-strokes thought process:

On Hakeem - IMO his defensive peak is earlier (like 89/90), but 93-95 (well maybe 95) are his best combination of offense AND defense. Going from 93-->95, I see his defense dropping off, while his offense improves (more refined, more comfortable, more diverse, more aggressive, etc.), to the point where I rank all three seasons about the same. BUT, as I value defense over equivalent offense due to portability (even though Hakeem's offensive skillset is meshable), I would take 93 over the other two seasons by a hair if I must choose one (well and RS health as a tiebreaker).
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#52 » by SideshowBob » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:40 am

Found this, case for and analysis of 93 Hakeem:

Double Clutch wrote:Halftime at the Spurs vs Grizz game and I noticed nobody replied to this thread and since I'm one of the people who do share this sentiment, I will take the time to share my opinion.

First of all, the primary argument used against 1993 Hakeem in contrast to the 1994 and especially 1995 versions is that his playoff run wasn't as good. I think everybody would agree 1993 Hakeem had the best regular season so I'm not going to talk about that as much. Most people would say that the 1995 playoff run was his best. We have to understand that playoff performances and especially the numbers are not accumulated in a vacuum. There are certain match ups and circumstances that can potentially dictate how a player performs.

The first thing you have to ask yourself is whether the 1995 playoff run was an aberration in his career? That is clearly not the case as he was generally a terrific playoff performer so it's not a case where you can say Hakeem finally put it all together and had a great playoff run.

The next thing you have to ask yourself is if Hakeem is in a better situation to put up offensive numbers in 1995 than he is in 1993. That to me is definitely true because he has superior back-up PG play with a second year Cassell while the 1993 Rockets had Scott Brooks which is really no comparison, there is even greater floor spacing as Horry spent a good amount of time at the 4 during the playoffs which is an offense at the expense of defense strategy (also benefited from the shortened 3 pt line) and the addition of Drexler brought another dimension to their offense, relieving some pressure off of him and Hakeem does benefit from Drexler’s presence as he’d often space the floor with Drexler either posting up or isolating which is naturally going to help him as he got better looks and Drexler really improved their transition game as well which Hakeem benefited from as the trailer. A secondary scorer is something lacking on the 1993 and 1994 Rockets.

Next, as a I mentioned earlier, match ups can dictate how a player performs. In the first round vs Utah in 1995, Hakeem put up immense numbers vs the Jazz and really played tremendous basketball especially in the two elimination games but when you look a little deep into it, he put up roughly the same numbers vs Utah in the season so he isn't elevating his play to a new level and also consider the fact that Utah's best center, Felton Spencer, was injured for the year. If you compare this series to Hakeem's 1994 WCF vs Utah, you'll notice Felton's presence was definitely missed because once Utah tweaked their defense a bit during the 1994 series (games 3-5), they were able to limit Hakeem's offensive production a bit as Felton was able to push him away from the basket, they started doubling him more often with the forwards so Hakeem would have a bit more difficulty passing out of the double and they'd also pressure the entry pass a bit so Hakeem would naturally have to come out further to receive the ball. These are not issues Hakeem had to deal with in the 1995 series with superior guard play, more of an open game and the lack of Spencer. The next series was against PHX where he was played well and came up clutch in the last three games but overall, I actually think he played a better series vs PHX in 1994. The 1995 San Antonio series is excellent, it's Hakeem's greatest playoff series and really what makes the 1995 playoff run so special but consider he did face single coverage quite a bit and how he had added motivation with Robinson being named the league MVP. This isn't to take away from the series at all by the way, it's easily one of the greatest series I've ever seen. The series vs Orlando is a great all-around performance but something I could definitely see the 1993 and 1994 versions duplicating and even surpassing due to superior defense and activity level.

Now, consider his match ups and circumstances in 1993, neither of which are very favorable so for Hakeem to play that well makes his playoffs that year even more impressive to me. As I mentioned earlier, the guard play is crucial to how a center plays as they're often responsible for getting him the ball. The guard play on the 1993 Rockets is fairly suspect with poor back-ups, the fact that Vernon Maxwell was out until game 4 of the Clipper series with a fractured wrist (he'd play with it for the rest of the playoffs) and this is further magnified by the fact that the two teams they were facing excelled in pressure defenses. There is no accurate way to account for how great a team is at pressuring and trapping the ball besides watching the games but two stats that will give you a rough estimation will be steals and turnovers forced. The 1993 Sonics were the #1 team in the league in both steals and turnovers forced. The 1993 Clippers were the #3 team in the league in steals and #4 in turnovers forced so the point I'm getting at is they were BOTH elite and combined with suspect guard play, this can really have a negative impact on a center's production. Kenny Smith was never great at handling pressure, didn't have the creativity and ball handling skills to evade the traps and made bad passes that could get picked off and Vernon Maxwell had erratic ball handling and also did not protect the ball though I think the fractured wrist probably effected that to some extent. With how predictable the 1993 Rockets' were on offense, what this also meant was that time would be taken off the clock with LAC and SEA pressuring the ball and instead of being aggressive and taking advantage of defense still recovering, they would try to run the offense by dumping it to Hakeem with less time on the clock. Some of the Rocket players would also stand still waiting to receive the pass instead of coming up and meeting the pass which would allow the defense to play the passing lanes and either force a deflection or a steal.

Here's an example from game 5 of the 1993 Rockets vs Clippers series where the pressure defense helped Clippers erase a big 4th quarter deficit:

The way the Los Angeles Clippers see it, the Rockets will go as far in the NBA playoffs as Hakeem Olajuwon can take them and as far as their erratic ballhandling will let them go.

The Clippers tried a variety of defensive measures on Olajuwon, but nothing stopped him for long. But the Clippers did employ a pressing defense at times that forced turnovers and kept the ball from getting into Olajuwon's hands.

The Rockets were in control of Saturday's series-ending playoff game with a 16-point lead early in the fourth quarter. But shortly thereafter Clippers coach Larry Brown called for the press, the Rockets went on one of their turnover binges, and the game turned around.

Los Angeles rallied to lead in the final minute before the Rockets recovered to win 84-80 at The Summit.
In the fourth quarter, the Rockets had 11 turnovers and were outscored 24-17.

Clippers guard Lester Conner, who played the final 11 minutes of the game, said: "We had to make something happen to try to scramble the game. We got where we wanted to be and had a chance to go up two (with 1:17 to go) with (Ron) Harper's free throw."

Harper, who had scored on a fast-break drive to give the Clippers an 80-79 lead, missed his chance at a three-point play, and the Rockets' Vernon Maxwell followed with a 3-pointer from the right side that put the Rockets ahead for good.

But what does the victory say for the Rockets? They were pushed to the limit to win this series against a .500 team that was looking forward to being dismantled in the offseason.

"They have a chance to go very far," said Conner, a former Rocket. "But Rudy (Tomjanovich) will have to be figuring out what to do against pressure.

"When they play a better team than we are, I don't know if they'll be able to deal with it (the press). We got a couple of victories with it, and we came within one shot of beating them today. They are beatable."

Forward Kenny Norman said: "I don't think the best team won, but that Olajuwon is unbelievable. I didn't realize he was that good."

Asked if Olajuwon deserves to be the league's Most Valuable Player, Norman said: "I said (Charles) Barkley all year, but I'm wondering now. That man (Olajuwon) is Superman."

Norman, who is not usually an outside shooter, was 2-for-2 on 3-point shots and scored 14 points.

Although he did not play the final 11 minutes of the game, he had no complaints because "Lester and the small lineup got us back in the game."

But there was no stopping the Rockets' big man, Olajuwon, who scored 31 points for the day and went 3-for-4 from the floor in the fourth quarter.

Stanley Roberts, who took turns with Danny Manning trying to guard Olajuwon, said: "He's going to do what it takes to win. There really is no stopping him."

Said Manning: "Hakeem had a great year and a great series. I think he will even play better as the playoffs move on. Defensively, I never was really able to stop him, but then again, there are not many players that have."

- Chron

Clippers were also focused on doubling Hakeem at all times and didn't play him straight up from my memory although I don't count plays where Hakeem makes his move early such as the baseline spin off the catch, turnaround jumper where he can evade the double team etc. Of course, Seattle would take this to another level than the Clippers as they had superior defensive personnel as well as a defensive mastermind in Bob Kloppenburg to create defensive schemes to negate Hakeem's impact as much as possible. Hakeem's numbers in the Seattle series may not stand out but he created a lot of opportunities because how much attention he received. They would also make adjustments throughout the series such as switching defenders, changing the identities of the double teamer, coming from different angles, fronting him and pressuring the ball handler to make it harder for the lob pass and a lot of times they could get away with having a defender on the front and on the back. Seattle would also try to run more and bait Houston into a running game where they tended to forget about Hakeem and the guards tended to chuck up more shots so this was also smart on Seattle's behalf. An example of this below from game 1 of this series:

Lacking alternatives, Karl went to a small lineup, and watched his club run up a 91-77 lead that proved to be too much to overcome with 7:07 remaining in a defensive matchup.

"That's sometimes how good coaches are made," Karl conceded.

Well, looky here. Like spying a dollar bill on the sidewalk, the Sonics may have stumbled across yet another look to toss at Olajuwon, the Rockets' superstar center. Call it the no-look.

Because, in this scheme, Olajuwon doesn't get to look at the ball.

With the smaller unit able to force the tempo, the Sonics ripped off nine unanswered points - the first five from Johnson, the last four from Pierce. The Sonics, as everybody knows, are at their best when things get crazy. The Rockets, on the other hand, have Olajuwon, so playing crazy usually is just plain insane.

"They're kind of an in-between team," Kloppenburg said. "They'll run, if they get the opportunities. But they mostly want the power game."

But there's nothing powerful about turnovers and wild three-pointers, which the Rockets produced when induced into an up-and-down game.

"If they're playing that way," said Johnson, who scored the Sonics' first 11 points of the fourth quarter and finished with 20, "they tend, at times, to forget about Hakeem."

Bingo.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930511&slug=1700685" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hakeem's production when you consider these two aspects is great because I believe you shouldn't penalize a big man if his perimeter players can't get him the ball or if they're being baited into an up and down game and seduced into playing into the opponent's hands although this does show an inherit limitation in a big man's game due to their inability to create offense from the get-go. The above issues are something Hakeem didn't come across in the 1994 or 1995 playoffs with the exception of the 1994 finals to a certain extent. Hakeem also didn't receive much support early on in this series; I remember Hubie Brown stating how he felt Hakeem was essentially playing 1 on 5 in the first two games at Seattle. In general, I think 1993 Hakeem got doubled a bit more than 1994 and especially 1995 Hakeem due to the strategies employed by the teams they faced as well as superior spacing on the 1995 team which can make your box score stats look weaker.

Now, when I compare 1993 Hakeem to 1994 Hakeem, I really don't see any improvements in the latter version mainly because he didn't get to work much on his game in the 1993 off-season as he had to get surgery on his finger (right hand) although he did work on his off-hand as a result. Meanwhile, 1993 Hakeem is very clearly a superior rebounder which can be backed up by the numbers, a tad quicker which I think was noticeable in his lateral movement and rotations and I also thought he had a bit more stamina preventing him from getting worn down late in games which happened in the 1994 playoffs (game 4 vs Portland, finals vs the Knicks etc). He did work on his strength and stamina in the 1994 off-season. I don't see a good reason why anybody should side with 1994 Hakeem as his peak year unless you're caught up in the MVP and championship narrative which you shouldn't be. His playoff run might be a little better but like I said, the circumstances and match ups definitely influence that. To me, he was pretty clearly the MVP in 1993 by the way and the 1994 Rockets as a team are a little better than the 1993 version due to the addition of Sam Cassell who was a solid back up PG, Horry improving as a player specifically in regards to his shooting and the addition of another solid defender and shooter in Mario Elie. I'm not even touching on the fact that the 1993 Rockets had a whole bunch of calls go against them in game 7 vs Seattle as well as a tip-in at the buzzer by David Robinson to force OT in the last game of the season which shouldn't have counted as it was late and that would've given Houston home court in the Seattle series (home team won every game).

When I compare 1993 Hakeem to 1995 Hakeem, I try to compare and weigh to what extent the improvement in certain skills translates to impact. 1993 Hakeem has a rather clear edge in athleticism especially in regards to quickness and leaping ability, offensive rebounding (more easier baskets), defensive rebounding, shot FTs a little better (very minor point though), transition defense, mobility on the perimeter, PnR defense and rim protection (thought he challenged more shots in the lane). His perimeter/PnR/transition defense is incredible in that series vs Seattle, just awe-inspiring to watch especially when you consider that Seattle had a well-balanced attack with multiple offensive threats all over the floor.

I noticed 1995 Hakeem took more of an offensive approach; perhaps, because they realized the team's strength clearly lied on the offensive end and he shifted his focus towards that side of the court and maybe conserved some energy on defense. His activity level in terms of challenging shots and crashing the boards had declined and Houston's PnR defense was exploited on occasion during the 1995 playoffs (games 3 and 4 vs SA come to mind) though I wouldn't attribute that to Hakeem but more so the strategy Houston chose to roll with in defending the play. I did notice he was more conscious of the roll man when he was guarding Shaq and Robinson which is understandable from a strategic standpoint and the main reason it was exploited was due to the guards often getting picked off and weakside help didn't come quick enough. But I also noticed that in general, Hakeem didn't show hard as much or as consistently as he did in the past and laid back on the play. Maybe this was due to the fact they lacked rebounding due to the Drexler/Thorpe trade but Hakeem's defensive rebounding numbers actually declined after the trade. The decrease in activity level is something you can argue in favor of 1993 Hakeem since he had better stamina so he didn't have to conserve energy as much. As for improvements, I would say 1995 Hakeem is a bit better at setting screens so his PnR and PnP game was better as a result and he also improved at slipping screens as well, he was more effective facing up and putting the ball on the floor, bit better footwork that along with his instincts allowed him to create more separation and more stuff on the fly, he perhaps had a bit more range to stretch the floor so his offensive portability is a little better although how much of this is due to simply having the room to showcase his stuff more often due to the improvement in Houston's spacing, facing less defensive attention and their guards were better at penetrating and creating (no Drexler and Cassell in 1993)? I think it definitely plays a part so while this does show Hakeem's ability to adjust with the system, you can perhaps say 1995 Hakeem doesn't have as much of an edge in these areas as you initially think since 1993 Hakeem wasn't used this way due to the make up of the team. With that said, his assistant coach (Carroll Dawson) did talk about how he added range to his jumper and there is a visible improvement in his pick setting in 1995. Some of it may have to do with the presence of Cassell as him and Sam had decent synergy on the PnR.

I'm really impressed by Hakeem's all around dominance in 1993 and while I did commend his clutch play in 1995, 1993 Hakeem was extremely clutch as well. The game 5 vs Clippers and the game 7 vs Seattle are two terrific elimination game performances.

To briefly indulge into Hakeem and the Rockets' regular season, they really became a great team after a few team meetings in January 1993 encouraging more unselfish and team basketball and Hakeem's leadership played a part in that. After a subpar 14-16 start, they went 41-11 to finish the season and Hakeem's numbers in that 52 gm stretch are really tremendous all-around: 26.9 ppg/13.3 rpg/4.0 apg/2.1 spg/4.2 bpg/53.0 FG%/79.4 FT%. I'm not overly impressed by the 1993 Rockets roster either partly for some the reasons that have been stated above such as their inability to handle pressure defenses along with their guard play in general.

I think Hakeem's decision making really improved this year which he alluded to in his HOF speech when he said Rudy T gave him more room to freelance which made him more conscious of his decisions and of course Rudy had designed the offense around him to maximize his talents. Hakeem also said the 1992 off-season was the first time he really worked on his game (shooting, spin moves, conditioning, passing) and the improvements in 1993 are rather obvious. It's why 1993 is his peak to me, he put it all together and his dominance on offense and defense overlapped to a greater extent than he did in 1994 and 1995 while having all the leadership, clutch play and mental game down.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#53 » by Quotatious » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:48 am

SideshowBob wrote:Found this, case for and analysis of 93 Hakeem:

Spoiler:
Double Clutch wrote:Halftime at the Spurs vs Grizz game and I noticed nobody replied to this thread and since I'm one of the people who do share this sentiment, I will take the time to share my opinion.

First of all, the primary argument used against 1993 Hakeem in contrast to the 1994 and especially 1995 versions is that his playoff run wasn't as good. I think everybody would agree 1993 Hakeem had the best regular season so I'm not going to talk about that as much. Most people would say that the 1995 playoff run was his best. We have to understand that playoff performances and especially the numbers are not accumulated in a vacuum. There are certain match ups and circumstances that can potentially dictate how a player performs.

The first thing you have to ask yourself is whether the 1995 playoff run was an aberration in his career? That is clearly not the case as he was generally a terrific playoff performer so it's not a case where you can say Hakeem finally put it all together and had a great playoff run.

The next thing you have to ask yourself is if Hakeem is in a better situation to put up offensive numbers in 1995 than he is in 1993. That to me is definitely true because he has superior back-up PG play with a second year Cassell while the 1993 Rockets had Scott Brooks which is really no comparison, there is even greater floor spacing as Horry spent a good amount of time at the 4 during the playoffs which is an offense at the expense of defense strategy (also benefited from the shortened 3 pt line) and the addition of Drexler brought another dimension to their offense, relieving some pressure off of him and Hakeem does benefit from Drexler’s presence as he’d often space the floor with Drexler either posting up or isolating which is naturally going to help him as he got better looks and Drexler really improved their transition game as well which Hakeem benefited from as the trailer. A secondary scorer is something lacking on the 1993 and 1994 Rockets.

Next, as a I mentioned earlier, match ups can dictate how a player performs. In the first round vs Utah in 1995, Hakeem put up immense numbers vs the Jazz and really played tremendous basketball especially in the two elimination games but when you look a little deep into it, he put up roughly the same numbers vs Utah in the season so he isn't elevating his play to a new level and also consider the fact that Utah's best center, Felton Spencer, was injured for the year. If you compare this series to Hakeem's 1994 WCF vs Utah, you'll notice Felton's presence was definitely missed because once Utah tweaked their defense a bit during the 1994 series (games 3-5), they were able to limit Hakeem's offensive production a bit as Felton was able to push him away from the basket, they started doubling him more often with the forwards so Hakeem would have a bit more difficulty passing out of the double and they'd also pressure the entry pass a bit so Hakeem would naturally have to come out further to receive the ball. These are not issues Hakeem had to deal with in the 1995 series with superior guard play, more of an open game and the lack of Spencer. The next series was against PHX where he was played well and came up clutch in the last three games but overall, I actually think he played a better series vs PHX in 1994. The 1995 San Antonio series is excellent, it's Hakeem's greatest playoff series and really what makes the 1995 playoff run so special but consider he did face single coverage quite a bit and how he had added motivation with Robinson being named the league MVP. This isn't to take away from the series at all by the way, it's easily one of the greatest series I've ever seen. The series vs Orlando is a great all-around performance but something I could definitely see the 1993 and 1994 versions duplicating and even surpassing due to superior defense and activity level.

Now, consider his match ups and circumstances in 1993, neither of which are very favorable so for Hakeem to play that well makes his playoffs that year even more impressive to me. As I mentioned earlier, the guard play is crucial to how a center plays as they're often responsible for getting him the ball. The guard play on the 1993 Rockets is fairly suspect with poor back-ups, the fact that Vernon Maxwell was out until game 4 of the Clipper series with a fractured wrist (he'd play with it for the rest of the playoffs) and this is further magnified by the fact that the two teams they were facing excelled in pressure defenses. There is no accurate way to account for how great a team is at pressuring and trapping the ball besides watching the games but two stats that will give you a rough estimation will be steals and turnovers forced. The 1993 Sonics were the #1 team in the league in both steals and turnovers forced. The 1993 Clippers were the #3 team in the league in steals and #4 in turnovers forced so the point I'm getting at is they were BOTH elite and combined with suspect guard play, this can really have a negative impact on a center's production. Kenny Smith was never great at handling pressure, didn't have the creativity and ball handling skills to evade the traps and made bad passes that could get picked off and Vernon Maxwell had erratic ball handling and also did not protect the ball though I think the fractured wrist probably effected that to some extent. With how predictable the 1993 Rockets' were on offense, what this also meant was that time would be taken off the clock with LAC and SEA pressuring the ball and instead of being aggressive and taking advantage of defense still recovering, they would try to run the offense by dumping it to Hakeem with less time on the clock. Some of the Rocket players would also stand still waiting to receive the pass instead of coming up and meeting the pass which would allow the defense to play the passing lanes and either force a deflection or a steal.

Here's an example from game 5 of the 1993 Rockets vs Clippers series where the pressure defense helped Clippers erase a big 4th quarter deficit:

The way the Los Angeles Clippers see it, the Rockets will go as far in the NBA playoffs as Hakeem Olajuwon can take them and as far as their erratic ballhandling will let them go.

The Clippers tried a variety of defensive measures on Olajuwon, but nothing stopped him for long. But the Clippers did employ a pressing defense at times that forced turnovers and kept the ball from getting into Olajuwon's hands.

The Rockets were in control of Saturday's series-ending playoff game with a 16-point lead early in the fourth quarter. But shortly thereafter Clippers coach Larry Brown called for the press, the Rockets went on one of their turnover binges, and the game turned around.

Los Angeles rallied to lead in the final minute before the Rockets recovered to win 84-80 at The Summit.
In the fourth quarter, the Rockets had 11 turnovers and were outscored 24-17.

Clippers guard Lester Conner, who played the final 11 minutes of the game, said: "We had to make something happen to try to scramble the game. We got where we wanted to be and had a chance to go up two (with 1:17 to go) with (Ron) Harper's free throw."

Harper, who had scored on a fast-break drive to give the Clippers an 80-79 lead, missed his chance at a three-point play, and the Rockets' Vernon Maxwell followed with a 3-pointer from the right side that put the Rockets ahead for good.

But what does the victory say for the Rockets? They were pushed to the limit to win this series against a .500 team that was looking forward to being dismantled in the offseason.

"They have a chance to go very far," said Conner, a former Rocket. "But Rudy (Tomjanovich) will have to be figuring out what to do against pressure.

"When they play a better team than we are, I don't know if they'll be able to deal with it (the press). We got a couple of victories with it, and we came within one shot of beating them today. They are beatable."

Forward Kenny Norman said: "I don't think the best team won, but that Olajuwon is unbelievable. I didn't realize he was that good."

Asked if Olajuwon deserves to be the league's Most Valuable Player, Norman said: "I said (Charles) Barkley all year, but I'm wondering now. That man (Olajuwon) is Superman."

Norman, who is not usually an outside shooter, was 2-for-2 on 3-point shots and scored 14 points.

Although he did not play the final 11 minutes of the game, he had no complaints because "Lester and the small lineup got us back in the game."

But there was no stopping the Rockets' big man, Olajuwon, who scored 31 points for the day and went 3-for-4 from the floor in the fourth quarter.

Stanley Roberts, who took turns with Danny Manning trying to guard Olajuwon, said: "He's going to do what it takes to win. There really is no stopping him."

Said Manning: "Hakeem had a great year and a great series. I think he will even play better as the playoffs move on. Defensively, I never was really able to stop him, but then again, there are not many players that have."

- Chron

Clippers were also focused on doubling Hakeem at all times and didn't play him straight up from my memory although I don't count plays where Hakeem makes his move early such as the baseline spin off the catch, turnaround jumper where he can evade the double team etc. Of course, Seattle would take this to another level than the Clippers as they had superior defensive personnel as well as a defensive mastermind in Bob Kloppenburg to create defensive schemes to negate Hakeem's impact as much as possible. Hakeem's numbers in the Seattle series may not stand out but he created a lot of opportunities because how much attention he received. They would also make adjustments throughout the series such as switching defenders, changing the identities of the double teamer, coming from different angles, fronting him and pressuring the ball handler to make it harder for the lob pass and a lot of times they could get away with having a defender on the front and on the back. Seattle would also try to run more and bait Houston into a running game where they tended to forget about Hakeem and the guards tended to chuck up more shots so this was also smart on Seattle's behalf. An example of this below from game 1 of this series:

Lacking alternatives, Karl went to a small lineup, and watched his club run up a 91-77 lead that proved to be too much to overcome with 7:07 remaining in a defensive matchup.

"That's sometimes how good coaches are made," Karl conceded.

Well, looky here. Like spying a dollar bill on the sidewalk, the Sonics may have stumbled across yet another look to toss at Olajuwon, the Rockets' superstar center. Call it the no-look.

Because, in this scheme, Olajuwon doesn't get to look at the ball.

With the smaller unit able to force the tempo, the Sonics ripped off nine unanswered points - the first five from Johnson, the last four from Pierce. The Sonics, as everybody knows, are at their best when things get crazy. The Rockets, on the other hand, have Olajuwon, so playing crazy usually is just plain insane.

"They're kind of an in-between team," Kloppenburg said. "They'll run, if they get the opportunities. But they mostly want the power game."

But there's nothing powerful about turnovers and wild three-pointers, which the Rockets produced when induced into an up-and-down game.

"If they're playing that way," said Johnson, who scored the Sonics' first 11 points of the fourth quarter and finished with 20, "they tend, at times, to forget about Hakeem."

Bingo.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930511&slug=1700685" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hakeem's production when you consider these two aspects is great because I believe you shouldn't penalize a big man if his perimeter players can't get him the ball or if they're being baited into an up and down game and seduced into playing into the opponent's hands although this does show an inherit limitation in a big man's game due to their inability to create offense from the get-go. The above issues are something Hakeem didn't come across in the 1994 or 1995 playoffs with the exception of the 1994 finals to a certain extent. Hakeem also didn't receive much support early on in this series; I remember Hubie Brown stating how he felt Hakeem was essentially playing 1 on 5 in the first two games at Seattle. In general, I think 1993 Hakeem got doubled a bit more than 1994 and especially 1995 Hakeem due to the strategies employed by the teams they faced as well as superior spacing on the 1995 team which can make your box score stats look weaker.

Now, when I compare 1993 Hakeem to 1994 Hakeem, I really don't see any improvements in the latter version mainly because he didn't get to work much on his game in the 1993 off-season as he had to get surgery on his finger (right hand) although he did work on his off-hand as a result. Meanwhile, 1993 Hakeem is very clearly a superior rebounder which can be backed up by the numbers, a tad quicker which I think was noticeable in his lateral movement and rotations and I also thought he had a bit more stamina preventing him from getting worn down late in games which happened in the 1994 playoffs (game 4 vs Portland, finals vs the Knicks etc). He did work on his strength and stamina in the 1994 off-season. I don't see a good reason why anybody should side with 1994 Hakeem as his peak year unless you're caught up in the MVP and championship narrative which you shouldn't be. His playoff run might be a little better but like I said, the circumstances and match ups definitely influence that. To me, he was pretty clearly the MVP in 1993 by the way and the 1994 Rockets as a team are a little better than the 1993 version due to the addition of Sam Cassell who was a solid back up PG, Horry improving as a player specifically in regards to his shooting and the addition of another solid defender and shooter in Mario Elie. I'm not even touching on the fact that the 1993 Rockets had a whole bunch of calls go against them in game 7 vs Seattle as well as a tip-in at the buzzer by David Robinson to force OT in the last game of the season which shouldn't have counted as it was late and that would've given Houston home court in the Seattle series (home team won every game).

When I compare 1993 Hakeem to 1995 Hakeem, I try to compare and weigh to what extent the improvement in certain skills translates to impact. 1993 Hakeem has a rather clear edge in athleticism especially in regards to quickness and leaping ability, offensive rebounding (more easier baskets), defensive rebounding, shot FTs a little better (very minor point though), transition defense, mobility on the perimeter, PnR defense and rim protection (thought he challenged more shots in the lane). His perimeter/PnR/transition defense is incredible in that series vs Seattle, just awe-inspiring to watch especially when you consider that Seattle had a well-balanced attack with multiple offensive threats all over the floor.

I noticed 1995 Hakeem took more of an offensive approach; perhaps, because they realized the team's strength clearly lied on the offensive end and he shifted his focus towards that side of the court and maybe conserved some energy on defense. His activity level in terms of challenging shots and crashing the boards had declined and Houston's PnR defense was exploited on occasion during the 1995 playoffs (games 3 and 4 vs SA come to mind) though I wouldn't attribute that to Hakeem but more so the strategy Houston chose to roll with in defending the play. I did notice he was more conscious of the roll man when he was guarding Shaq and Robinson which is understandable from a strategic standpoint and the main reason it was exploited was due to the guards often getting picked off and weakside help didn't come quick enough. But I also noticed that in general, Hakeem didn't show hard as much or as consistently as he did in the past and laid back on the play. Maybe this was due to the fact they lacked rebounding due to the Drexler/Thorpe trade but Hakeem's defensive rebounding numbers actually declined after the trade. The decrease in activity level is something you can argue in favor of 1993 Hakeem since he had better stamina so he didn't have to conserve energy as much. As for improvements, I would say 1995 Hakeem is a bit better at setting screens so his PnR and PnP game was better as a result and he also improved at slipping screens as well, he was more effective facing up and putting the ball on the floor, bit better footwork that along with his instincts allowed him to create more separation and more stuff on the fly, he perhaps had a bit more range to stretch the floor so his offensive portability is a little better although how much of this is due to simply having the room to showcase his stuff more often due to the improvement in Houston's spacing, facing less defensive attention and their guards were better at penetrating and creating (no Drexler and Cassell in 1993)? I think it definitely plays a part so while this does show Hakeem's ability to adjust with the system, you can perhaps say 1995 Hakeem doesn't have as much of an edge in these areas as you initially think since 1993 Hakeem wasn't used this way due to the make up of the team. With that said, his assistant coach (Carroll Dawson) did talk about how he added range to his jumper and there is a visible improvement in his pick setting in 1995. Some of it may have to do with the presence of Cassell as him and Sam had decent synergy on the PnR.

I'm really impressed by Hakeem's all around dominance in 1993 and while I did commend his clutch play in 1995, 1993 Hakeem was extremely clutch as well. The game 5 vs Clippers and the game 7 vs Seattle are two terrific elimination game performances.

To briefly indulge into Hakeem and the Rockets' regular season, they really became a great team after a few team meetings in January 1993 encouraging more unselfish and team basketball and Hakeem's leadership played a part in that. After a subpar 14-16 start, they went 41-11 to finish the season and Hakeem's numbers in that 52 gm stretch are really tremendous all-around: 26.9 ppg/13.3 rpg/4.0 apg/2.1 spg/4.2 bpg/53.0 FG%/79.4 FT%. I'm not overly impressed by the 1993 Rockets roster either partly for some the reasons that have been stated above such as their inability to handle pressure defenses along with their guard play in general.

I think Hakeem's decision making really improved this year which he alluded to in his HOF speech when he said Rudy T gave him more room to freelance which made him more conscious of his decisions and of course Rudy had designed the offense around him to maximize his talents. Hakeem also said the 1992 off-season was the first time he really worked on his game (shooting, spin moves, conditioning, passing) and the improvements in 1993 are rather obvious. It's why 1993 is his peak to me, he put it all together and his dominance on offense and defense overlapped to a greater extent than he did in 1994 and 1995 while having all the leadership, clutch play and mental game down.

Double Clutch is such a great poster...I really wish he posted more often.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#54 » by RSCD3_ » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:49 am

Vote 1994, better team success, offense had improved more than his defense declined. Still put up great scoring and passing numbers in the playoffs as a one man band. One step from goat level on defense and in terms of overall offense for bigs I'd have him under only

Dirk/Barkley/Shaq/Kareem are the only ones clearly ahead of him offensively. Wilt and Duncan being debateable.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#55 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:29 pm

I would go for 1994, mainly because of playoffs. Difference is minimal, so this ends debate for me.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#56 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:02 pm

Vote: 94 Hakeem

While 93 hakeem had the slightly better RS, i'm more impressed with his ability to lead his team to a championship in 94. That roster is about the same as 93 outside of the addition of rookie cassell. I can recognize that they had a nice collection of role players, but still no AS caliber 2nd option. That team relied on hakeem to get it done.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#57 » by thizznation » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:36 pm

I voted for Russell in thread 9 for my second ballot but did not provide a year. For year I am going to go with 1962. For the reason that this was the year where he had the most offense. On top of this he was seasoned for a couple of years in the league but still young enough to still have elite athleticism.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#58 » by 70sFan » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:23 pm

I have a question for those who choose 1964/1965 years over 1962:
How important are the playoffs for you? He faced Wilt in every year. In 1962 he arguably outplayed him during the 7 games (well, I think they were even, but case can be made for Russell). In 1964 Wilt played great in the finals, but his team was poor ofensively and Boston won in 5 games despite Bill's being outplayed by Chamberlain. In 1965 Wilt just killed him in every aspect of the game. Of course, Celtics still won, but in 7 games.
Celtics best defensive years are 1964 and 1965, but 1962 is still very dominant. Slightly worse, but I think it's because Cousy and Heinsohn starting over KC Jones and Sanders (big difference on defense), not because Bill being worse defender. Do you really think this small edge in defense is bigger than in scoring? Russell was never known for scoring, but in 1962 he was pretty efficient with not low volume (even more in playoffs), while later he became below average scorer.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#59 » by trex_8063 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:51 pm

70sFan wrote:I have a question for those who choose 1964/1965 years over 1962:
How important are the playoffs for you? He faced Wilt in every year. In 1962 he arguably outplayed him during the 7 games (well, I think they were even, but case can be made for Russell). In 1964 Wilt played great in the finals, but his team was poor ofensively and Boston won in 5 games despite Bill's being outplayed by Chamberlain. In 1965 Wilt just killed him in every aspect of the game. Of course, Celtics still won, but in 7 games.
Celtics best defensive years are 1964 and 1965, but 1962 is still very dominant. Slightly worse, but I think it's because Cousy and Heinsohn starting over KC Jones and Sanders (big difference on defense), not because Bill being worse defender. Do you really think this small edge in defense is bigger than in scoring? Russell was never known for scoring, but in 1962 he was pretty efficient with not low volume (even more in playoffs), while later he became below average scorer.


Some of that difference in ppg (and other raw numbers) is pace related (they were playing a +7.2 pace in '62 relative to '65).
His per 100 poss and rTS for both years (in rs) are like this:
'62: 15.3 pts, 19.1 reb, 3.6 ast @ +0.99% rTS
'65: 12.3 pts, 21.0 reb, 4.6 ast @ -0.69% rTS

So it's pretty close in rs (can certainly see the case for '62). Playoffs are equally close. I do like his better scoring efficiency and peak facilitator mode he appeared to be on in the '65 playoffs.

Ultimately it's splitting hairs between the two years.
fwiw, I had two different peak evaluating formulas, and without going into the details (it would take way to damn long for the bigger one; for purposes of this discussion, just know that the higher the score the better), the complicated formula ranked the years as follows:
'62: 1,141 pts
'65: 1,184 pts

The simpler one gave the following scores:
'62: 39.99
'65: 41.23


When I scrutinize the two years, I honestly can't decide; so I just went with what my formulas spit out. As you can see, the margin wasn't much in either case, but both did point at '65. But it's kinda like the Lebron, '09 or '13 (or '12???) debate: there really isn't a right or wrong answer.
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Re: Peaks Project Secondary Thread: to determine Years 

Post#60 » by 70sFan » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:52 pm

Yeah, they look very close. I think Russell finals performances are on the same level, maybe even slight edge for 1962. Also, RS are quite similar too. Both teams were dominant, Russell won MVPs. So the big difference to me is his performance against his biggest rival - Wilt. His offensive performance isn't all time great, but it's still better than in 1965. When we factor his defense on Chamberlain (main opponent's scorer), you can see that his 1962 performance is far more impressive.
Unless you think that Wilt became much better scorer from 1962 to 1965 (I do think he was overall better offensive player, stronger and more efficient scorer. But let's not act that difference is huge, for example it seems that Wilt had better outside touch in early 60s than later).
Also, add his MUCH better FT shooting in 1962 playoffs and I think you have the answer which year is better. At least in my opinion, you may have different and I will respect this

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