RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #19 (George Mikan)

[trex_8063]

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. ??

Stop time will be sometime Saturday early evening.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Joey Wheeler]

Same ballot as previous one:

1-Kevin Durant

Should already be in, don't see any case for some of the guys already in over him. GOAT level scorer, imo the best ever in that regard along with Jordan, his insane volume and efficiency holds up even in the biggest stage in the Finals. Too big to be defended by wings, he'll just shoot over them; too quick and agile to be defended by bigs. He's a walking mismatch and can score at insane efficiency with a shot profile full of what would be inefficient shots for just about anyone else. Very good longevity already too.

2-Charles Barkley

One of the best offensive players ever, super efficient scorer, great offensive rebounder, he was outright dominant during his prime.

3-Moses Malone

I don't like his skillset for the modern NBA, but his in-era dominance can't be denied, he dominated the league and was an enormous difference maker. You could argue for a higher spot, but again I don't think his game has really aged well.

[colts18]

I don't see nash above Stockton. Old Stockton was a better player than Dallas/Phoenix Nash from 96-03. They were playing at the same time during the most physical defensive-oriented era in history and Stockton was shining over Nash. If you put Stockton on the D'Antoni Suns, I believe that he would be an MVP also. His shooting was on par with Nash.

I don't see Steve Nash having the same impact in Jerry Sloan's system being the #2 behind Karl Malone in a slow offense in a defensive era.

[Odinn21]

19. Moses Malone
I believe this will be my most controversial choice so far but I'm pretty confident in this pick.
His single season peak was tier 2 on overall for me. I'd put 1982 or 1983 Moses in the same tier as 2004 Garnett, even though I'd rate Garnett slightly higher. One of the things going for Moses though, his 3 season peak from 1980-81 to 1982-83 is definitely at the top level among the available names. He does not come short in peak, extended peak, prime and extended prime for me. His career resume is also massive.
He was one of the most skilled bigs on offense. His name rarely comes up among the best low post scorers but he literally had every move in his book and he was at least pretty good on some and great or best on most. Look at the players he thought; Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley. Also he was at least as good as old man Duncan from mid range.
The arguments against him usually go such as this;
- "He wouldn't be that good in the modern times which utilize PnR far more."
Portability is very important, yes. But, TBH, this is like saying Oscar Robertson did not shoot enough threes to me. Don't see the point of penalizing a player for a play style that was not there in his time.
Also, one of the things that gets easily overlooked while thinking about Moses' portability is that he's quite possibly the greatest foul drawing big. That would make wonders in any era. I don't have the exact numbers right now because BBRef made their play index service paid but I know that Moses Malone before fell out of his prime made young Hakeem Olajuwon fouled out in majority of their h2h games. I wrote the exact numbers in the past on the forum, if I find, I'll edit this part.
- "He was a negative impact on defense."
This is flat out wrong and it's not about some preference unlike the previous point. If Moses Malone was a negative impact on defense, then how did the Sixers improved on defense after losing their best defender in order to get Moses?
1982 Sixers; 7th in DRtg with -3.0 rDRtg
1983 Sixers; 5th in DRtg with -3.8 rDRtg
The thing about his defense was, he was inconsistent. He had bad defensive seasons and good defensive seasons, in the end both sides would cancel out each other and I'd put down Moses Malone as an average defender. But I never get the point of talking about him as if he was Nowitzki who got way more traction than him so far.
- "He was not an impact player."
This is also one of the wrong assumptions about him. I think I watched enough games of him to get the sense of a very positive impact player.
Also there was a Dipper 13 thread at the time, showing on/off Rtg numbers for the '80s Sixers. I'm looking for that, couldn't find it so far. If anyone has the link, it'd be appreciated.
Edit; Found it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZxRM9p2dFil5w6s21VEB4HnQZJymEY8_2vej-jREuUo/edit#gid=459687126
Just look at the numbers he had in '83 and '85 in Philly. (I tend to consider 1984 of Moses as something like 2005 for Bryant, a down year but also an outlier.)

The only aspect I'd hold against him is his passing. He was not a black hole, he was a decent facilitator. Though his passing lacked in some sense and you wouldn't see him those cutting passes to a guard under the basket. That type of stuff was the only major gap in his game for me.
His skillset was great, his scoring volume was great, he had the proper impact on offense, he's among one of the greatest rebounders. We usually overlook rebounding, the neutral aspect of the game, in this offense and defense evaluations. His defensive inconsistencies and passing issues are there to be addressed surely but, his great qualities are enough for me to put him on 14th spot.

Note: I have been voting for Malone since the #12 thread for the #14 spot.

20. George Mikan
To be honest, I probably even watched footages of Bob Pettit way more than Mikan, let alone Russell or other '60s legends. But Mikan's legacy and impact has to be in the top 20. I'll never be sure about his exact placement on the list but it's time I start to include him on my ballot.

21. Charles Barkley
I think we're getting to the part, long prime duration and overall longevity are luxuries to have at the same time.
The player pool I have for this spot;
Barkley, Wade, Curry, Durant, Pettit (and maybe Ewing but probably not)
As I stated many times before, peak, average prime quality, prime duration, overall longevity, intangibles and career resume are my criteria.
We can beat a dead horse about peak, but I'd rate Barkley at the top for average prime quality and prime duration. His intangibles were quite problematic but it's not enough to force one of the other 4 ahead of him.

---

A quick recap with changes compared to the 2017 list so far;

1. LeBron James (+2)
2. Michael Jordan (-1)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (-1)
4. Bill Russell -
5. Tim Duncan -
6. Wilt Chamberlain -
7. Magic Johnson -
8. Shaquille O'Neal -
9. Hakeem Olajuwon -
10. Larry Bird -
11. Kevin Garnett (+1)
12. Kobe Bryant (-1)
13. Jerry West (+2)
14. Oscar Robertson (-1)
15. Dirk Nowitzki (+2)
16. Karl Malone (-2)
17. David Robinson (+1)
18. Julius Erving (-2)

[Dr Positivity]

I'm looking at Pettit here as I feel he has the combination of

- Solid longevity (11 all-nba seasons, 9 as superstar)
- Great intangibles (highly respected, best motor of his era) - led winning team
- MVP peak. I do not degrade him for era much more than players like West and Oscar as he put up his best stats at about the same time.

[Jordan Syndrome]

11. Kevin Garnett (+1)
12. Kobe Bryant (-1)
13. Jerry West (+2)
14. Oscar Robertson (-1)
15. Dirk Nowitzki (+2)
16. Karl Malone (-2)
17. David Robinson (+1)
18. Julius Erving (-2)

Thanks for doing this Odinn21.

I would have been happy with KG going higher but I'm not upset he surpassed Kobe.

Nice to see Oscar/West ahead of Malone, same for Dirk for me. I really like the groupings of Dirk/Malone/Robinson and I think people need to really be looking at these things as tiers.

If you ever have time Odinn, maybe looking at the voting could help separate tiers? Basically if one player gets a huge majority that's the end of a tier and a new tier begins.

[eminence]

tiers.

This word, I like it.

[Cavsfansince84]

1. Barkley due to
-what I view as a somewhat long and very productive prime(11th in career vorp)
-very good peak(finished higher than prime level MJ in mvp voting twice)
-great post skills to go with solid outside shot, good handles for a big and passing ability
-game changing off rebounding
-consistently great playoff gear
-his mixture of strength, explosiveness and skill is what makes me put him here, it would be unstoppable in any era

2. Mikan
-more or less dominated for 8 straight years as scorer/rebounder/defender
-has very strong ts added(3 years over 294) which shows to go with him being a volume scorer how dominant he was
-7 titles
-prime is semi short but no other player left has this level of dominance

3. Pettit
-10 time all nba 1st team
-very good shooter which he could do off the dribble
-excellent rebounder
-very good metrics/efficiency for his era(led league in per 4 times, has total ts add of 1757 for his career)
-25.5/15.8 career playoff averages
-won ring and top 4 in mvp voting 8 times
-honestly this spot is between Pettit and KD for me and I went with Pettit because I don't feel KD has been as consistently good as Pettit was plus he's missed essentially two years with injuries

[Odinn21]

11. Kevin Garnett (+1)
12. Kobe Bryant (-1)
13. Jerry West (+2)
14. Oscar Robertson (-1)
15. Dirk Nowitzki (+2)
16. Karl Malone (-2)
17. David Robinson (+1)
18. Julius Erving (-2)

Thanks for doing this Odinn21.

I would have been happy with KG going higher but I'm not upset he surpassed Kobe.

Nice to see Oscar/West ahead of Malone, same for Dirk for me. I really like the groupings of Dirk/Malone/Robinson and I think people need to really be looking at these things as tiers.

If you ever have time Odinn, maybe looking at the voting could help separate tiers? Basically if one player gets a huge majority that's the end of a tier and a new tier begins.

Going by ranks;
1. James, reached a majority in 2nd round count (19 of 37, the 2nd was Jordan with 15)
2. Jordan, 1st round (12/22)
3. Abdul-Jabbar, 1st round (18/25)
4. Russell, 1st round (16/24)
5. Duncan, 1st round (15/27)
6. Chamberlain, 1st round (10/19)
7. Magic, 3rd round (15/28, the 2nd was O'Neal with 13)
8. O'Neal, 2nd round (16/25, the 2nd was Garnett with 8)
9. Olajuwon, 2nd round (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=85965732#p85965732)
10. Bird, 2nd round (12/23, the 2nd was Garnett with 11)
11. Garnett, 1st round (13/24)
12. Bryant, 3rd round (13/20, the 2nd was West with 7)
13. West, 4th round (13/23, the 2nd was Robertson with 10)
14. Robertson, 1st round (11/17)
15. Nowitzki, 3rd round (10/19, the 2nd was Malone with 6)
16. Malone, 4+ rounds (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=86203539#p86203539)
17. Robinson, 5th round (10/18, the 2nd was Mikan with 5)
18. Erving, 3rd round (11/19, the 2nd was Mikan with 6)

I don't think those numbers can be interpreted as you intended.

Note: Those numbers are the results our commissioner declared. There were votes after it was called, they are not included on there.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I don't think those numbers can be interpreted as you intended.

Not exactly, no but we can do something close.

1. James, reached a majority in 2nd round count (19 of 37, the 2nd was Jordan with 15)
2. Jordan, 1st round (12/22)
3. Abdul-Jabbar, 1st round (18/25)
4. Russell, 1st round (16/24)
5. Duncan, 1st round (15/27)
6. Chamberlain, 1st round (10/19)

7. Magic, 3rd round (15/28, the 2nd was O'Neal with 13)
8. O'Neal, 2nd round (16/25, the 2nd was Garnett with 8)
9. Olajuwon, 2nd round (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=85965732#p85965732)
10. Bird, 2nd round (12/23, the 2nd was Garnett with 11)
11. Garnett, 1st round (13/24)

12. Bryant, 3rd round (13/20, the 2nd was West with 7)
13. West, 4th round (13/23, the 2nd was Robertson with 10)
14. Robertson, 1st round (11/17)

15. Nowitzki, 3rd round (10/19, the 2nd was Malone with 6)
16. Malone, 4+ rounds (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=86203539#p86203539)
17. Robinson, 5th round (10/18, the 2nd was Mikan with 5)
18. Erving, 3rd round (11/19, the 2nd was Mikan with 6)

[penbeast0]

Mikan still my pick for top spot. Easily the most dominant player ever outside of the big 5 of LeBron, Jordan, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem; more so than the others in our top 10 and you could put him ahead of Wilt and Kareem in that regard pretty easily too. You have to say that his competition was primitive and racially limited and that knocks him down a lot but I have him above the rest here.

After that it's a crap shoot.

In terms of big men, there are pretty much 3 or 4 top ones for me, Moses, Ewing, Pettit, and Durant. I have Pettit over Barkley for his intangibles and Barkley's defense. Durant is the most talented of these 4, but the worst leader. Not sure where I go. Besides, there are 5 legit PG candidates to consider too (I don't think it's DWade time yet at SG).

PG Curry, Paul, Nash, Stockton, Frazier -- Curry has the most individual impact, his unreal shooting just opens up the floor for his teammates and gives guys like Draymond, Klay, etc. the ability to play in space. He also has the shortest prime and a lesser playoff resume. Paul has the best turnover efficiency of any ATG PG, good defense, makes his teammates better, but can come across as a jerk and has had some key injuries. Nash has the flashy team offenses, particularly in Phoenix -- you want to look at his impact, look at Marion's efficiency with the likes of Kidd and Marbury then look at it with Nash. I think his numbers overrated his ability a bit as SSOL sacrificed defense to create mismatches all through the front court, but even discounting a little for that, they are still incredible. Stockton has the ironman thing which I really thing rubs off on teammates, the nasty defense, but mainly the greatest assist generator in NBA history. Stockton has half again as many assists as Magic, Nash, or Chris Paul. People dismiss this as no big deal because it just boggles the mind. And, he did it with generally weak offensive help outside of his long time star Karl Malone and a few years of Jeff Hornacek. Give him a 3rd option like Hornacek and his team ORTG's start looking amazing too. Finally, Frazier is one of the 3 main defensive GOAT PGs (with Kidd and probably Payton being the others) while also being and extremely efficient scorer relative to his era, a great floor general (though low assist due to the type of offense he ran), and someone who can play on ball, off ball, outside, inside, and really picked up his game in the playoffs, particularly the NBA finals. The only downside for Frazier (to me) is playing in the 70s.

So, how to judge this:
1. Mikan (easy)
2. Curry (haven't been talked out of him yet)
3. Durant (sigh, but yeah, he's that good)

[Cavsfansince84]

So, how to judge this:
1. Mikan (easy)
2. Curry (haven't been talked out of him yet)
3. Durant (sigh, but yeah, he's that good)

You sort of talked me into having Mikan now second on my vote but you don't think Curry's 7 year prime(including the two years prior to his first mvp) during which he missed quite a few rs/ps games is enough of a weakness to knock him down below quite a few guys left in the voting? Personally I can't see having him on my ballot for at least 4-5 more spots. Because no matter how good of a shooter he is you have to be on the court to win rings and I also question his ability to handle tougher defensive players(even more so prior to 2000). 7 year prime is just really short to go with only 6 total all league teams.

[trex_8063]

EDIT: changed order from original vote

1st vote: Charles Barkley
One of the greatest offensive forwards ever, imo. Led THE LEAGUE in TS% for four consecutive years while averaging anywhere from 23-28.3 ppg. Multiple other high scoring seasons at ~60+% TS, and a career 12.5% OREB% (once led the league in this as well [in the same year he led the league in TS%]), as well as being a more than capable passing forward. Just a tremendous [GOAT-tier] foul-draw capacity, devastating finisher (both in the half-court and in transition), excellent at passing out of doubles, and capable of taking the point on the fast-break.
You watch young Barkley and you see one of the most uniquely athletic players of all-time. Only 6'5", but long arms, strong as a bull, fast in the open court, and able to explode almost effortlessly from a two-footed jump.

Barkley ticks most of the "accomplishment" boxes, except for having a title; but that's hardly a requisite [imo] at this stage of the list.
His biggest weaknesses are that he didn't take care of himself tremendously well (but he still played >39,000 minutes in 16 seasons), and his defensive shortcomings by the mid-point of his career and after are at times glaring.
But still a worthy candidate at this stage.


2nd vote: John Stockton
I'll keep it short 'cause I'm out of time. Yeah, meaningful longevity matters to me: Stockton was valuable (almost a borderline All-Star calibre player) even in his 19th and final season (every metric, including the impact variety, bare this to be true).
So clever (and dirty), particularly defensively, excellent shooter, fantastic [if a touch overly "safe"] passer; and bloody tough as nails.
I imagine I'll be championing him for awhile before others are willing to give him votes, so I'll have to work up some more extensive arguments at a later time.


3rd vote: Chris Paul
I think Paul suffers severely in the esteems of the media and casual fans alike because he's a pass-first PG (which limits ppg), because he's not been to the finals, and a relative lack of flash.
But this is a player who is 9th all-time in career PER (despite a career lasting 15 seasons, >1000 games, >35,000 minutes), 14th in WS (12th in NBA-only careers), and 7th in VORP.
In the playoffs he's got the 10th-best career PER of all-time (ahead of contemporaries like Dirk, Kawhi, Steph Curry, and James Harden), as well as being 34th in WS and 24th in VORP (despite never making a run as deep as the finals).

In terms of impact, his best 10 years RAPM added is 5th among those players we have the data for. Only Lebron, Garnett, Duncan, and Shaq exceed him in this (all of them already voted in, the nearest being 8 places ago)......which means he's AHEAD of contemporaries like Dirk and Wade. He's also ahead of the best 10-years of Charles Barkley, fwiw (and we have some pseudo-RAPM going back as far as '88 for Barkley).

While I think Paul's fallen slightly short of the offensive peaks attained by Nash or Magic (I think his relative conservatism holds him back), it's notable that he combines the offense he does provide [GOAT-tier mid-range shooting, GOAT-tier turnover economy] with frequently being one of the best defensive PG's of his generation: he's short, but thick, strong, and aggressive. He's not easily abused even by bigger guards, doesn't die on screens, is persistently pesky on ball [with quick hands], and is impeccable in his positioning to interfere with the slip pass on pnr defense. Rebounds reasonably well for his size, too (obviously well shy of Magic in this regard, not that Magic is on the table for comparison presently).



Anticipating where the vote for this thread may go (so I'm not ghosted away), if it comes to Mikan vs Durant and my vote is needed as a potential tie-breaker, I go with Durant. I'll also go with Moses over Mikan.
If it comes to Durant vs Moses.....that one I'll have to think about.

[eminence]

2. Mikan
-more or less dominated for 8 straight years as scorer/rebounder/defender
-has very strong ts added(3 years over 294) which shows to go with him being a volume scorer how dominant he was
-5 titles
-prime is semi short but no other player left has this level of dominance

It's actually 7 titles in 8 seasons, first two were in the NBL (the better league at the time).

[Cavsfansince84]

2. Mikan
-more or less dominated for 8 straight years as scorer/rebounder/defender
-has very strong ts added(3 years over 294) which shows to go with him being a volume scorer how dominant he was
-5 titles
-prime is semi short but no other player left has this level of dominance

It's actually 7 titles in 8 seasons, first two were in the NBL (the better league at the time).

Alright, I will edit it to 7 then.

[No-more-rings]

1st vote: Chris Paul
I think Paul suffers severely in the esteems of the media and casual fans alike because he's a pass-first PG (which limits ppg), because he's not been to the finals, and a relative lack of flash.
But this is a player who is 9th all-time in career PER (despite a career lasting 15 seasons, >1000 games, >35,000 minutes), 14th in WS (12th in NBA-only careers), and 7th in VORP.
In the playoffs he's got the 10th-best career PER of all-time (ahead of contemporaries like Dirk, Kawhi, Steph Curry, and James Harden), as well as being 34th in WS and 24th in VORP (despite never making a run as deep as the finals).

In terms of impact, his best 10 years RAPM added is 5th among those players we have the data for. Only Lebron, Garnett, Duncan, and Shaq exceed him in this (all of them already voted in, the nearest being 8 places ago)......which means he's AHEAD of contemporaries like Dirk and Wade. He's also ahead of the best 10-years of Charles Barkley, fwiw (and we have some pseudo-RAPM going back as far as '88 for Barkley).

While I think Paul's fallen slightly short of the offensive peaks attained by Nash or Magic (I think his relative conservatism holds him back), it's notable that he combines the offense he does provide [GOAT-tier mid-range shooting, GOAT-tier turnover economy] with frequently being one of the best defensive PG's of his generation: he's short, but thick, strong, and aggressive. He's not easily abused even by bigger guards, doesn't die on screens, is persistently pesky on ball [with quick hands], and is impeccable in his positioning to interfere with the slip pass on pnr defense. Rebounds reasonably well for his size, too (obviously well shy of Magic in this regard, not that Magic is on the table for comparison presently).


2nd vote: Charles Barkley
One of the greatest offensive forwards ever, imo. Led THE LEAGUE in TS% for four consecutive years while averaging anywhere from 23-28.3 ppg. Multiple other high scoring seasons at ~60+% TS, and a career 12.5% OREB% (once led the league in this as well [in the same year he led the league in TS%]), as well as being a more than capable passing forward. Just a tremendous [GOAT-tier] foul-draw capacity, devastating finisher (both in the half-court and in transition), excellent at passing out of doubles, and capable of taking the point on the fast-break.
You watch young Barkley and you see one of the most uniquely athletic players of all-time. Only 6'5", but long arms, strong as a bull, fast in the open court, and able to explode almost effortlessly from a two-footed jump.

Barkley ticks most of the "accomplishment" boxes, except for having a title; but that's hardly a requisite [imo] at this stage of the list.
His biggest weaknesses are that he didn't take care of himself tremendously well (but he still played >39,000 minutes in 16 seasons), and his defensive shortcomings by the mid-point of his career and after are at times glaring.
But still a worthy candidate at this stage.


3rd vote: John Stockton
I'll keep it short 'cause I'm out of time. Yeah, meaningful longevity matters to me: Stockton was valuable (almost a borderline All-Star calibre player) even in his 19th and final season (every metric, including the impact variety, bare this to be true).
So clever (and dirty), particularly defensively, excellent shooter, fantastic [if a touch overly "safe"] passer; and bloody tough as nails.
I imagine I'll be championing him for awhile before others are willing to give him votes, so I'll have to work up some more extensive arguments at a later time.


Anticipating where the vote for this thread may go (so I'm not ghosted away), if it comes to Mikan vs Durant and my vote is needed as a potential tie-breaker, I go with Durant. I'll also go with Moses over Mikan.
If it comes to Durant vs Moses.....that one I'll have to think about.

So i’m curious to how much Chris Paul’s habitual playoff injuries play a role in his ranking to you. He seemed to get hurt every other year and often in at critical times.

2009- Got hurt player like garbage in a first round exit
2010- Hurt in the regular season no playoffs for him
2012- Got hurt played like garbage against the Spurs in an embarrassing sweep
2014- Pulled a hamstring and went to 7 against the Warriors when that series shouldn’t have went past 5 or 6 games tops
2015- Got hurt missed 2 games against the Rockets and blew an embarrassing 3-1 lead
2016- Got hurt and missed 2 games in a highly favored series for them
2018- Missed 2 critical games blowing a 3-2 lead which would’ve taken them to the finals and a likely championship.

Chris Paul’s resume is littered with a bunch of injuries and blotched series in his prime. At what point do we stop acting like none of this matters and just cite his box scores and put a blanket over his injuries, as if durabilty and availability in the playoffs isn’t a big deal?

This crap has gotten so ridiculous when it comes to him.

[Cavsfansince84]

So i’m curious to how much Chris Paul’s habitual playoff injuries play a role in his ranking to you. He seemed to get hurt every other year and often in at critical times.

2009- Got hurt player like garbage in a first round exit
2010- Hurt in the regular season no playoffs for him
2012- Got hurt played like garbage against the Spurs in an embarrassing sweep
2014- Pulled a hamstring and went to 7 against the Warriors when that series shouldn’t have went past 5 or 6 games tops
2015- Got hurt missed 2 games against the Rockets and blew an embarrassing 3-1 lead
2016- Got hurt and missed 2 games in a highly favored series for them
2018- Missed 2 critical games blowing a 3-2 lead which would’ve taken them to the finals and a likely championship.

Chris Paul’s resume is littered with a bunch of injuries and blotched series in his prime. At what point do we stop acting like none of this matters and just cite his box scores and put a blanket over his injuries, as if durabilty and availability in the playoffs isn’t a big deal?

This crap has gotten so ridiculous when it comes to him.

I largely agree with your points here. There's only so much I can reward him for being top 10 in all these rs metrics every year. Plus the fact he's only played in 70 or more rs games 8 times in 15 years. Maybe its bad luck to some degree but I can't reward him for it. Durability is something of a tangible thing and having it does count for something in my mind.

[Jordan Syndrome]

So i’m curious to how much Chris Paul’s habitual playoff injuries play a role in his ranking to you. He seemed to get hurt every other year and often in at critical times.

2009- Got hurt player like garbage in a first round exit
2010- Hurt in the regular season no playoffs for him
2012- Got hurt played like garbage against the Spurs in an embarrassing sweep
2014- Pulled a hamstring and went to 7 against the Warriors when that series shouldn’t have went past 5 or 6 games tops
2015- Got hurt missed 2 games against the Rockets and blew an embarrassing 3-1 lead
2016- Got hurt and missed 2 games in a highly favored series for them
2018- Missed 2 critical games blowing a 3-2 lead which would’ve taken them to the finals and a likely championship.

Chris Paul’s resume is littered with a bunch of injuries and blotched series in his prime. At what point do we stop acting like none of this matters and just cite his box scores and put a blanket over his injuries, as if durabilty and availability in the playoffs isn’t a big deal?

This crap has gotten so ridiculous when it comes to him.

I largely agree with your points here. There's only so much I can reward him for being top 10 in all these rs metrics every year. Plus the fact he's only played in 70 or more rs games 8 times in 15 years. Maybe its bad luck to some degree but I can't reward him for it. Durability is something of a tangible thing and having it does count for something in my mind.

Aren't all the injuries the reason Chris Paul isn't borderline top 10?

Are we really going to be voting at 50 and using the same excuse to not vote CP3?

[Cavsfansince84]

Aren't all the injuries the reason Chris Paul isn't borderline top 10?

Are we really going to be voting at 50 and using the same excuse to not vote CP3?

Not really. I mean there's a lot of hypothetical stuff involved with what happens without the injuries. At some point he'd need to win at least one ring for me to give him consideration in that 11-14 group. Top 50 is a long way off and I think its a foregone conclusion that he makes the top 30 but 19 isn't 27. We're still talking about guys with some of the best careers of all time. As I said, durability counts for something and that's something which CP3 just hasn't been capable of and which is a flaw in either his body or his conditioning. Personally I do think he bulked up a bit too much and it could be why his body breaks down.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't see nash above Stockton. Old Stockton was a better player than Dallas/Phoenix Nash from 96-03. They were playing at the same time during the most physical defensive-oriented era in history and Stockton was shining over Nash. If you put Stockton on the D'Antoni Suns, I believe that he would be an MVP also. His shooting was on par with Nash.

I don't see Steve Nash having the same impact in Jerry Sloan's system being the #2 behind Karl Malone in a slow offense in a defensive era.

Alright, so I'll make bring up some points here for people to chew on in the other direction. I don't really want to make an argument why someone has to have Nash over Stockton because I can certainly see reasonable people disagreeing here.

First thing, you're dismissing basically Nash's entire Dallas career. That Dallas team was the best offense in the world Nash's last 3 years there with Nash being #2 guy in on-court ORtg in the entire league behind teammate Dirk. How are those years being dismissed? It's one thing to say that Nash wasn't an MVP candidate that year and quite another to talk as if it's nothing.

I'll add that Nash was 9th in the league in ORtg, and first on the Mavs the, the previous year in '00-01. Basically all 4 years in Dallas he put up numbers that basically look like Nash starter numbers, he was a world class offensive player in terms of his impact, and there's good reason to think he could have been having even more had the SSOL just come earlier.

So that leaves Nash in his first 4 years as really the only thing left to explain, but let's note that Stockton doesn't really get going until his 4th year himself, so we're really just talking about a 1 year prime duration edge up front by Stockton to go along with however you see the backend. Stockton absolutely was good until an older age, but Nash was the most effective offensive player in the league until the age of 36 and like Stockton was named all-star his last time at age 37.

Back to those first 4 years:

The 3rd & 4th were disappointing ones in Dallas during which Nash was injury-plagued. It's worth noting those years were disappointing at the time specifically because there was some buzz around Nash that he didn't live up to until after those first couple stumbles in Dallas. And where did the buzz come from?

People were very impressed by how Nash played in Phoenix the first time around. There were people on the staff who thought it was a mistake to trade Nash instead of Kidd, and some of these people were among those pushing to get him back circa 2004. The fact that Nash was a comparable passer to Kidd and a far greater shooter was clear. What was not clear to probably anyone back then, was that the team was doing better with Nash on the floor than Kidd.

It's sometimes brought up in analyzing '98-99, Kidd's Phoenix peak, that he had mammoth on/off numbers. "The team fell apart without him!" Well, that only happened because they didn't have Nash any more, because the previous year Steve Nash led the team in +/- despite playing less minutes than Kidd.

What all this means, as I see it, is that there's actually pretty good reason to think that Nash wasn't really a late bloomer in terms of his capabilities. Had he been handed the reins in Phoenix as a rookie, I think he blossoms early. But he wasn't, and then he got hurt. When he finally became an all-star, he was still seen as a secondary star for years more. That, along with his appearance tricked us all into thinking he wasn't capable of more.

For the record, I have analogous feelings about Stockton's arc. I think Stockton could have been leading the league in assists considerably earlier too.