Lets talk about Kyle...

[Rip2137]

Kyle is...struggling. This is obvious. The question is, why?

1: Age Kyle is older. There is no denying that. However, as a guy that doesn't rely on athleticism or lift, I don't feel this is the issue. Dead legs were a concern coming in but it was clear in the offseason Kyle worked on his midrange game, curling sooner off those screens, his runner and other things to lessen his over all mileage over the year.

2: Injuries I don't think he is injured right now, however, we are talking about a man of routine. He, like most great shooters, have their offseason, almost OCD, routines that they adhere to. Kyle was not able to get started when he usually does this offseason and after that crazy start to the year, not much free practice time. the question is, will he be able to get his stuff in midseason. I remember RJ Hunter talking about the thing that impressed him about Kyles shooting routines was that he didn't get up a ton of shots, it was just about repetition and getting it right vs getting up 1000 shots. So maybe there is a chance he can get that rhythm.

3: Mental. I rewatched last nights game(particularly Kyles shots). I counted at least 6 different release, one of which was almost at chest level. Shooting too early, elbow really low, his follow through all over the place...it appears he abandoned his stroke and was looking for one that worked. That's...not good. A couple of them late had his same stroke, and yeah, you are going to miss some of those, but he has to keep the stroke consistent to get rhythm back. Last night, Kyle was a batter in a hitting slump switching his stance. I'm not sure that's the best thing to do mid season, let alone mid game.

No matter what it is, Kyle has almost completely abandoned the midrange cuts, runners and jumpers he was using early in the year. Much like Mike Scott, statistically he was doing less, but he was doing more on the court, which I felt would make the team better. Now that he has put himself back to being a 3 point shooter only, it removed the dimensions it appears he worked on in the offseason.

I think Bud needs to give him a few games off and I felt like sticking with him last night was a vote of confidence he would need prior to a few games of rest to protect his psyche. "We have confidence in you and we will stick with you when you get back in the lineup" type of thing, but inserting Holiday into the rotation at the SG/SF might be a good thing right now.

[jayu70]

Seems metal, he talked about tweaking his shot mechanics after his elbow starting hurting last season.
My guess is he's still tweaking it after surgery and it seems he's rushing shots. Like you said he's shooting different ways in the same game.
He seems desperate to hit one and he's forcing the issue.
The team has 5 days off, so I think to start the New Year Bud should reduce Kyle's minutes.

[ATL Boy]

He should be moved to the bench. I'm confident that he'll get his stroke back but a reduction in minutes and a move to the second unit seems like the way to go for now.


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[Jamaaliver]

First, I think we should identify that there are two different (though very related) issues.

One, Korver is struggling with his shot right now. For the season, he was at 40% on 3 point attempts just a week ago. Now, after going 2-26 in his last 4 games, he's shooting 36% from three for the season. Slumps happen. He'll work his way out of it. He shot 50% from three in the month of NOVEMBER!!! He'll recover. These next few days off will do him well.

Two, and most importantly...Korver clearly hasn't been the same player all season that he was in 2014-2015. His FG% was down slightly for most of the season, but he's also lost a step. On offense and defense. But this was to be expected.

He's an unathletic role player, approaching 35, coming off multiple surgeries, with the shortest off-season of his career. This was a pretty logical result. I've seen my favorite players (Reggie Miller, Ray Allen) struggle at similar times in their career. I'm a couple of years older than KK and have LIVED it, also. Father time is undefeated.

Combine that with him not getting his routine in as much this summer while recovering from surgery, and his inability to keep up with younger, athletic players this year...and I think THAT as much as anything is affecting him mentally. It's alarming/frustrating when your body simply can't do the things it used to.

I think his age and injury concerns have had a more profound affect than even he expected, and now it's affecting him mentally. Combined with the fact that opposing defenses now key in on KYLE as a way to slow our offense. A tactic that worked particularly well in the playoffs. (KK was held to 29% 3-pt shooting against WAS) This decline was coming. And now it's up to Kyle to adjust based on this new reality...

To their credit, I do believe Bud and Wes saw this coming. That's the real reason they spent a top 20 pick on THJ.

But, we should have seen this coming as well. It was pretty much inevitable.

In summary, he's being affected by age, injury and mental frustration.
But, I'm not sure moving him to the bench NOW is the solution. There isn't really a dependable alternative to stretch the floor on this team.

HAWKS should have been looking to massively upgrade the starting 5 in the off-season.

[Jamaaliver]

A few excerpts on KK since the summer time:

Postseason opponents committed to stopping Kyle Korver, believing him the key to pace-and-space. Even before Matthew Dellavedova hurtled into Korver’s leg, the great shooter’s playoff misery had undercut everything.

Will Korver, who’s 34 and coming off two surgeries, be as good again?

From July

But Korver's age-defying season ended in the second game of the Eastern Conference finals. The play ruptured most of the soft tissue holding Korver's ankle together...

The first order of business was strengthening Korver's ankle to make his overall frame symmetrical, and a month of foot exercises geared toward mobility and functionality.

Then there was the matter of his career-defining shooting stroke. Korver now had a body recovering from two surgeries on his shooting side....When Korver finally got back into the gym to start shooting, he missed almost every shot.

By the end of September...the ankle, elbow and shooting form were all feeling better, but now there was another challenge: learning to work with an all-new Hawks training staff.

Written in the Fall

After a pair of offseason surgeries, Kyle Korver is off to a slow start this season. His scoring and assists are down and he’s on pace to have his worst season from 3-point range since 2010-11. His 42.9% 3-point shooting leads the team but is well off the league-best 49.2% he shot last season. Despite his struggles, the Hawks are outscoring opponents by 7.4 points per 100 possessions with Korver on the court, the second-best net rating on the team

From December

Kyle Korver was otherworldly last season getting and making 3s, shooting 49.2 percent behind the arc. This season, he's merely been excellent, hitting 40 percent on 3s. Teams are also making a concerted effort to run Korver off the 3-point line; his 3-point attempts per game have fallen from six per game last year to 4.8 so far this season. The two offseason surgeries Korver underwent on his ankle and elbow also cut into his offseason program.

Last Week

Mike Budenholzer wants Kyle Korver to keep shooting the basketball.

Period.

Budenholzer said before the Hawks played the Rockets. “He is very hard on himself. We like to try to pick him up a little bit. He’s a perfectionist. So, I think we are all confident.

“There might have been one exception [against Indiana]. Everything else were good looks and things we want him taking as many of those as possible.”

This week

Kyle Korver’s recent shooting slump could be blamed on the surgery he had to clean up his shooting elbow over the offseason. Or it could be that teams are doing a better job chasing him off his spot. Whatever it may be, Korver is down to shooting just 36 percent from beyond the arc.

Day after the HOU game

[MaceCase]

This couldn't be a more opportune time for Hardaway Jr. to perhaps be finally clicking. He's averaging 24 points over two games with the Austin Spurs having gone 9-17 from 3. Hopefully he can carry over his stroke and confidence into practice and convince Bud to unleash him on the Knicks on Sunday rather than leaving Bud feeling obligated to play Kyle 30 minutes.

[HMFFL]

We have Kyle on the books for one more season.
I'd love to see him continue to be part of our future for another couple of years, but I expect him to turn things around, even if his time in the league is starting to come to an end.

[azuresou1]

I think Kyle will be a serviceable player for another 3 seasons after this one, but he's beginning his decline, combined with coming back from an injury which has affected his mechanics AND his confidence.

I'd bring him off the bench after a private conversation saying, yes, you're still our starter, but we want you to play in lower stress situations while you work off the rust.

In the meantime, we start Baze and Thabo

[PandaKidd]

KOrver cant play 30+ minutes anymore. I mean he can, but its obvious hes not the same player (RIGHTFULLY SO) that he was last year.

I said this time and time again to people, watch him run around on the court and NOT get open. They run the same play around 2 down screens and Korver never gets a clean look in halfcourt anymore. Almost NEVER. The defender is on him or cuts up top around the screens. I think it has to do with age, injuries, opposing defenses, and not having a big perimeter wing player (like DMC) that was a great passer/cutter.

KOrver needs to be transitioned to the bench, he needs to be fresh and play against opposing teams 2nd string players.

[Jamaaliver]

KOrver cant play 30+ minutes anymore. I mean he can, but its obvious hes not the same player (RIGHTFULLY SO) that he was last year...

KOrver needs to be transitioned to the bench, he needs to be fresh and play against opposing teams 2nd string players.

Agreed.

And this was a big concern as we were putting together the roster last summer. It seemed like we were banking too much on just picking up where we left off. Just assuming that guys would put together another top flight season as we did last year.

The thing about benching Korver...we don't really have another offensive wing player to replace him with.

Thabo is NOT a consistent threat from deep. And I'm not prepared to make Kent Bazemore our primary deep threat on a team that thrives on spacing.

Ultimately, the team should have realized Demarre was leaving and KK was aging and more adequately prepared to replace both of our wings.

[PandaKidd]

I dont disagree with that. I keep reading a lot of the Hawks Fans responses and they are waiting for that 1 magic rotation change or play call that is going to spark a 19 game winning streak. ITS NOT HAPPENING. What that team did last year was just an anomaly. I believe they have a good system, but they out played their talent level BIG TIME.

Korver isnt going to shoot 50% again not at that clip he was on.

I completely agree that the strategy we went with wasnt what I was keen on. The leagues top teams have WINGS , we dont. We have undersized players at 3 positions and not a ton of talent their either. PM is an All Star, but hes not winning you a championship. AH is an All Star, but hes not winning you a championship.

Now DMC wasnt the superstar, im not saying that, but you cant point to a guy that is as athletic as him and as big as him on our team right now.

right now , i get the feeling a trade is coming, especially with the DNP-CD on DS. Are they auditioning Mack to see if he can be backup PG? Is Teague/DS getting moved?

The team as currently constructed, isnt getting out of the 2nd round. I dont think the 3 point shooting barrage they went on last year is coming back. It was special, but thats all it was. It wasnt sustainable.

[Jamaaliver]

What that team did last year was just an anomaly. I believe they have a good system, but they out played their talent level BIG TIME.

The team as currently constructed, isnt getting out of the 2nd round. I dont think the 3 point shooting barrage they went on last year is coming back. It was special, but thats all it was. It wasnt sustainable.

YES!!!

Last summer, guys were screaming that we had to keep everything the same because of January. But the writing was on the wall. Especially after getting swept by CLE and struggling to defeat WAS.

We do have a great system. But we have middling talent. And it's on Wes, Bud and D Ferry.

Ferry mismanaged assets to garner cap space. Budenholzer and Wes then opted to squander that cap space and roster flexibility to maintain the status quo.

This is the result. A very good team that won't win a title and will be hard pressed just to grace the Conference finals again.

Worst of all...our window is closing rapidly.

[PandaKidd]

I dont think the window is closing, because we do have a bunch of decent talent, i mean we arent the nets. Most of our guys are young, on good contracts. I think Millsap was worth every dollar we paid him.

Teague is talented and cheap, same with DS.

Korver isnt abysmal contract wise.

The problem will likely come with AH. If they max him out (which i feel they will) and he accepts, Im not sure where the next big deal talent is coming from unless it is in FA. And given our FA history, I wont really hold my breath. WHICH is why i still agree with you on the THJ trade, at 15 you have to take someone because you won 60 games, you may never be in that position again.

I think its clear we arent a top tier team that can compete with like CLE/GSW/SPURS but i mean, most teams arent 2 of those teams have proven draft prowess, and 1 has the best player on the planet who brings talent with him.

If it were me, and most people will prob laugh at me for this, i would explore every option trading Teague/AH this year. I hate to do it , but we are married to PM. If I could get Jimmy Butler straight up for AH, id do it in a heartbeat. If we could trade Teague for a starting caliber young wing, i would do it.

Im not sold on DS being the PG, but, i think a its clear the teams weaknesses as currently constructed and they are almost the same as last years weaknesses. Unless we shoot 40%+ from 3pt range, we wont go very far.

[Jamaaliver]

I dont think the window is closing, because we do have a bunch of decent talent, i mean we arent the nets. Most of our guys are young, on good contracts. I think Millsap was worth every dollar we paid him.

Teague is talented and cheap, same with DS.

Korver isnt abysmal contract wise.

The problem will likely come with AH. If they max him out (which i feel they will) and he accepts, Im not sure where the next big deal talent is coming from unless it is in FA. And given our FA history, I wont really hold my breath. WHICH is why i still agree with you on the THJ trade, at 15 you have to take someone because you won 60 games, you may never be in that position again.

If it were me, and most people will prob laugh at me for this, i would explore every option trading Teague/AH this year. I hate to do it , but we are married to PM. If I could get Jimmy Butler straight up for AH, id do it in a heartbeat. If we could trade Teague for a starting caliber young wing, i would do it.

Im not sold on DS being the PG, but, i think a its clear the teams weaknesses as currently constructed and they are almost the same as last years weaknesses. Unless we shoot 40%+ from 3pt range, we wont go very far.

Everything said above seems pretty reasonable...except for the Jimmy Butler trade.

No way CHI gives up on the best 2-way SG in the league...in his prime...for a 30 year old, undersized, injury prone Center who reaches Free Agency in a few months.

I love Horford...but his current production doesn't justify paying him $25 million per year. (C-Viv mentioned multiple times that mgmt Isn't fully sold on maxing out AL either.)

[jayu70]

What that team did last year was just an anomaly. I believe they have a good system, but they out played their talent level BIG TIME.

The team as currently constructed, isnt getting out of the 2nd round. I dont think the 3 point shooting barrage they went on last year is coming back. It was special, but thats all it was. It wasnt sustainable.

YES!!!

Last summer, guys were screaming that we had to keep everything the same because of January. But the writing was on the wall. Especially after getting swept by CLE and struggling to defeat WAS.

We do have a great system. But we have middling talent. And it's on Wes, Bud and D Ferry.

Ferry mismanaged assets to garner cap space. Budenholzer and Wes then opted to squander that cap space and roster flexibility to maintain the status quo.

This is the result. A very good team that won't win a title and will be hard pressed just to grace the Conference finals again.

Worst of all...our window is closing rapidly.

1. Our window isn't closing, not that it really was wide open.
2.what assets did Ferry mismanage for capspace, please don't tell me you're talking Lou and Bebe again because it's been mentioned time and again why that trade was made. DF doesn't get a sit down with D12 unless we have the capspace to offer a max deal. Was it a fools errand? Perhaps but you can't fault DF for making that play.
3. How exactly did Bud and Wilcox squander said capspace? By resigning Millsap? What was the alternative? Gasol or LMA wasn't coming here. Millsap is on a 3 year deal, Al is a FA (full BR), Teague, Korver, Thabo next year - that's flexibility.

[PandaKidd]

I dont think the window is closing, because we do have a bunch of decent talent, i mean we arent the nets. Most of our guys are young, on good contracts. I think Millsap was worth every dollar we paid him.

Teague is talented and cheap, same with DS.

Korver isnt abysmal contract wise.

The problem will likely come with AH. If they max him out (which i feel they will) and he accepts, Im not sure where the next big deal talent is coming from unless it is in FA. And given our FA history, I wont really hold my breath. WHICH is why i still agree with you on the THJ trade, at 15 you have to take someone because you won 60 games, you may never be in that position again.

If it were me, and most people will prob laugh at me for this, i would explore every option trading Teague/AH this year. I hate to do it , but we are married to PM. If I could get Jimmy Butler straight up for AH, id do it in a heartbeat. If we could trade Teague for a starting caliber young wing, i would do it.

Im not sold on DS being the PG, but, i think a its clear the teams weaknesses as currently constructed and they are almost the same as last years weaknesses. Unless we shoot 40%+ from 3pt range, we wont go very far.

Everything said above seems pretty reasonable...except for the Jimmy Butler trade.

No way CHI gives up on the best 2-way SG in the league...in his prime...for a 30 year old, undersized, injury prone Center who reaches Free Agency in a few months.

I love Horford...but his current production doesn't justify paying him $25 million per year. (C-Viv mentioned multiple times that mgmt Isn't fully sold on maxing out AL either.)

I wasnt saying CHI would do it, im just saying that is the type of trade I would be pursuing. Someone of his caliber. Word is Butler is souring on his teammates in CHI Town, the bulls want to be rid of Rose sooner rather than later, I mean do we KNOW hes off limits?

What if they said give us Teague AND AH and your 2nd round pick for Butler? Im listening.

I think the team we have is good, and thats it. They will have highs, they will have lows, but we the ceiling isnt very high because of the lack of super star talent.

Im not sure its a quick fix either. Blockbuster trades rarely happen. And Im not sure people are giving up a kings ransom for AH as you suggested.

[Jamaaliver]

1. Our window isn't closing, not that it really was wide open.
2.what assets did Ferry mismanage for capspace, please don't tell me you're talking Lou and Bebe again because it's been mentioned time and again why that trade was made. DF doesn't get a sit down with D12 unless we have the capspace to offer a max deal. Was it a fools errand? Perhaps but you can't fault DF for making that play.
3. How exactly did Bud and Wilcox squander said capspace? By resigning Millsap? What was the alternative? Gasol or LMA wasn't coming here. Millsap is on a 3 year deal, Al is a FA (full BR), Teague, Korver, Thabo next year - that's flexibility.

You and I have been through this a number of times. And I don't want to steer too far off topic.
Terrible things happen when we veer off course in this forum.

Ultimately, I believe last season was a fluke. If you take the entirety of the last 4 years and remove Dec - Jan, it's a pretty mediocre stretch.

The prospect of losing AL, Teague, KK and Thabo for nothing in Free Agency isn't some glimmer of hope and flexibility. It's a failure to capitalize when their value is at its peak.

I've been following the team for 20 years now. This is my 5th Front Office/Coach regime during my tenure. If you take out that single span from Dec - Jan of last season, I can't say this stretch has been particularly more fruitful or that this team is particularly more talented than any other group.

Dec & Jan were fantastic, but everything before and after has been puzzling, confusing and disappointing.

The fact we don't have a dependable replacement for 34 year old KK...is disheartening.

[PandaKidd]

Well I mean they did go 23-8 before the streak. It wasn't just January.

[Jamaaliver]

Well I mean they did go 23-8 before the streak. It wasn't just January.

You're absolutely right.

We've had two fantastic months in the last 4 years.

Minus those 62 days...

Hawks are 132 - 116 in regular season games since Danny Ferry came along. For a win percentage of 53%.

Hawks are 13 - 16 in playoff games since Danny Ferry came along. For a win percentage of 45%.

That two month stretch I think erased a lot of the shortcomings in Ferry's approach. And empowered Bud and Wes to simply maintain the course in their first offseason.

But, I digress. KK will recover a bit. But he's definitely on the downside of his career. And teams going out of their way to shut him down makes it difficult for him to get anything going.

[jayu70]

1. Our window isn't closing, not that it really was wide open.
2.what assets did Ferry mismanage for capspace, please don't tell me you're talking Lou and Bebe again because it's been mentioned time and again why that trade was made. DF doesn't get a sit down with D12 unless we have the capspace to offer a max deal. Was it a fools errand? Perhaps but you can't fault DF for making that play.
3. How exactly did Bud and Wilcox squander said capspace? By resigning Millsap? What was the alternative? Gasol or LMA wasn't coming here. Millsap is on a 3 year deal, Al is a FA (full BR), Teague, Korver, Thabo next year - that's flexibility.

You and I have been through this a number of times. And I don't want to steer too far off topic.
Terrible things happen when we veer off course in this forum.

Ultimately, I believe last season was a fluke. If you take the entirety of the last 4 years and remove Dec - Jan, it's a pretty mediocre stretch.

The prospect of losing AL, Teague, KK and Thabo for nothing in Free Agency isn't some glimmer of hope and flexibility. It's a failure to capitalize when their value is at its peak.

I've been following the team for 20 years now. This is my 5th Front Office/Coach regime during my tenure. If you take out that single span from Dec - Jan of last season, I can't say this stretch has been particularly more fruitful or that this team is particularly more talented than any other group.

Dec & Jan were fantastic, but everything before and after has been puzzling, confusing and disappointing.

The fact we don't have a dependable replacement for 34 year old KK...is disheartening.

I wasn't the one who brought up Danny Ferry first or last.